It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

At the heart of the debate of eternal security with those like Cassian, is the dispute about the authority of the Bible. For no matter what scripture one quotes to such persons, they are likely to reject the plain meaning because they hold ecclesiastical tradition to have higher authority.

the man made traditions. But then you and all sola scripturist read it as well and come up with different interpretations. so the Bible is not only NOT clear, but also not auuthoritative.

Dear Cassian, thanks for sharing your testimony with me. Now you may deny the authority of the Scripture whilst I slice up your demons with that sword (Eph 6) which the Bible orders me to use.

Once you discard the authority of scripture and decide to make ecclesiastical tradition your authority, you are in hot water. Indeed, men disagree on what the Bible means here and there; but ecclesiastical tradition is not merely of uncertain interpretation, but actually contradicts itself. "Church fathers" outright contradict each other. And then how do you know which one to pick; do you not badmouth (Saint) Augustine?

Once you have thrown out the Bible, you have no proof for much of anything theologically. You have no proof that your ecclesiasticals are telling God's truth. You are in worse shape than sheep who hear the Master's Voice. You think it is better that the sheep not listen to the master's voice, but listen to some ecclesiasticals who relay the message with cacophonous discord among themselves and intrinsic fallibility. Are you familiar with Pierre Abélard's Sic et Non, where their contradictions are enumerated?

The Lord Jesus expressly condemned the authority of the traditions. He contrasted His teaching with tradition in the Sermon on the Mount: "You have heard that it was said by them of old blah blah, but I say to you."

Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is given to God; he shall not honor his father . And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition. Ye hypocrites," - Mat 15


"Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with defiled hands? 6 And he said unto them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
This people honoreth me with their lips,
But their heart is far from me.


7 But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.


8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. 9 And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition. . . . making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do. Mark 7

Paul was in the error of traditionalism before saved:

"I advanced in the Jews’ religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers."

Peter warned vs traditions:


"ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers; but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:"

God's word warns vs tradition:


Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

Of course God's Word delivered by prophets (whether by oral word or written letter) may sometimes called "tradition," and is authoritative as God's Word. For example, prophet Paul delivered God's Word and taught.


"Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you." [past tense]

" So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word or by epistle of ours." [past tense]

Notice that in all these cases, the traditions endorsed are past messages, not future, and have no reference to "church fathers" who taught after the end of the NT.

The Word clearly states how Paul's prophecies (letters called by Peter "scripture") were limited to what Christ wrought.

"For I will not dare to speak of any things save those which Christ wrought through me, for the obedience of the Gentiles, by word and deed, 1in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Holy Spirit; so that from Jerusalem, and round about even unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ;"

And the Thessalonians were commended for having received Paul's words as God's words, without any ecclesiastical mediators around to interpret those words for them.

Thus you have no proof for the authority of your ecclesiasticals. They disagree with each other; they contain error. And preferring them is against the Word of God.

But the Scripture is comprehensible by every common born-again Christian. For the Sheep hear the Shepherd's Voice, and are responsible for what He says. Moreover, they all have an anointing, according to 1 John.


"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us. And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and because no lie is of the truth."

Moreover, the individual believer is responsible to understand and obey God's Word.

Luke 24:

"And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!"

The rebuke is not for having disregarded the instructions of religious leaders.

To be sure there is a spiritual gift of teaching, given by the Holy Spirit without dispensation by ecclesiasticals. But even when legitimate (if fallible) teaching is given by men having that gift, the Noble Beroeans will check it out to see if the scripture really teaches that. There is no hint of depending on some ecclesiasticals to tell the Beroeans what's what.

Being uncertain of an interpretation of scripture is an unavoidable experience by those who see through a glass darkly at times. But that problem is nothing like accepting ecclesiastical pronouncement which are not God's Word as the final authority. The ecclesiasticals disagree with each other. And with "church leaders" it is not merely a problem of interpretation, but of the fact that their word itself contains errors; whereas God's word does not.

I refer you to all of Psalm 119. Here is one sample where it is a "me" who understands, not some bunch of ecclesiaticals:


Thy commandments make me wiser than mine enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers;
For thy testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the aged,
Because I have kept thy precepts.









7

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

What is your proof of that?

scripture states it. Do you trust scripture" Do you believe the Gospel even in its written form?

Basing things on the fact that you believe proves nothing.

No, but that is what the Holy Spirit does to men, when He calls them to repentance. He leads by His Word, spoken in scripture and men who were to bring that Gospel to the world. It is there to believe or to reject. YOu seem to have rejected it as it was given and need to change it to suit some other man's supposition which you do hold to because he says so.

What is your proof that the Church is infallible?
How do you know that your group is the Church?

Scripture and history.

What is your proof of that?

scripture and history.

Nonsense. You are not Christ. Your group is not Christ. What is your proof that your group is infallible?

again scripture and history so state. I cannot help that you deny both scripture and history. YOu are a modern, humanist type of guy who needs to depend on his own interpretation and his own emperical facts. Which is why there are so many modern man made versions of a moderate size Book, called the Bible.

Proof?

Scripture and history.

Men have been foisting since NT times. Galatians proves that.

what was it that the Galatians foisted upon Christ's Gospel and changed it?

What is your proof of that? do you suppose you will be believed just for saying it?
You gave no proof that your group is the Church and no proof that it is infallible.

No, they should all be Bereans and check it out as I did. You have nothing if one does not believe scripture then follow history. You assume we were given a text, dropped out of the sky with no meaning and man must figure out what it means. The problem with that scenerio for the last 500 years it has led to thousands of interpretations of that text. More on the way.

 

[Atwood]

At the heart of the debate of eternal security with those like Cassian, is the dispute about the authority of the Bible. For no matter what scripture one quotes to such persons, they are likely to reject the plain meaning because they hold ecclesiastical tradition to have higher authority.

the man made traditions. But then you and all sola scripturist read it as well and come up with different interpretations. so the Bible is not only NOT clear, but also not auuthoritative.

Dear Cassian, thanks for sharing your testimony with me. Now you may deny the authority of the Scripture whilst I slice up your demons with that sword (Eph 6) which the Bible orders me to use.

Once you discard the authority of scripture and decide to make ecclesiastical tradition your authority, you are in hot water. Indeed, men disagree on what the Bible means here and there; but ecclesiastical tradition is not merely of uncertain interpretation, but actually contradicts itself. "Church fathers" outright contradict each other. And then how do you know which one to pick; do you not badmouth (Saint) Augustine?

Once you have thrown out the Bible, you have no proof for much of anything theologically. You have no proof that your ecclesiasticals are telling God's truth. You are in worse shape than sheep who hear the Master's Voice. You think it is better that the sheep not listen to the master's voice, but listen to some ecclesiasticals who relay the message with cacophonous discord among themselves and intrinsic fallibility. Are you familiar with Pierre Abélard's Sic et Non, where their contradictions are enumerated?

The Lord Jesus expressly condemned the authority of the traditions. He contrasted His teaching with tradition in the Sermon on the Mount: "You have heard that it was said by them of old blah blah, but I say to you."

Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is given to God; he shall not honor his father . And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition. Ye hypocrites," - Mat 15


"Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with defiled hands? 6 And he said unto them, Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
This people honoreth me with their lips,
But their heart is far from me.


7 But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.


8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. 9 And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition. . . . making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do. Mark 7

Paul was in the error of traditionalism before saved:

"I advanced in the Jews’ religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers."

Peter warned vs traditions:


"ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers; but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:"

God's word warns vs tradition:


Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

Of course God's Word delivered by prophets (whether by oral word or written letter) may sometimes called "tradition," and is authoritative as God's Word. For example, prophet Paul delivered God's Word and taught.


"Now I praise you that ye remember me in all things, and hold fast the traditions, even as I delivered them to you." [past tense]

" So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word or by epistle of ours." [past tense]

Notice that in all these cases, the traditions endorsed are past messages, not future, and have no reference to "church fathers" who taught after the end of the NT.

The Word clearly states how Paul's prophecies (letters called by Peter "scripture") were limited to what Christ wrought.

"For I will not dare to speak of any things save those which Christ wrought through me, for the obedience of the Gentiles, by word and deed, 1in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Holy Spirit; so that from Jerusalem, and round about even unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ;"

And the Thessalonians were commended for having received Paul's words as God's words, without any ecclesiastical mediators around to interpret those words for them.

Thus you have no proof for the authority of your ecclesiasticals. They disagree with each other; they contain error. And preferring them is against the Word of God.

But the Scripture is comprehensible by every common born-again Christian. For the Sheep hear the Shepherd's Voice, and are responsible for what He says. Moreover, they all have an anointing, according to 1 John.


"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us. And ye have an anointing from the Holy One, and ye know all the things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and because no lie is of the truth."

Moreover, the individual believer is responsible to understand and obey God's Word.

Luke 24:

"And he said unto them, O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!"

The rebuke is not for having disregarded the instructions of religious leaders.

To be sure there is a spiritual gift of teaching, given by the Holy Spirit without dispensation by ecclesiasticals. But even when legitimate (if fallible) teaching is given by men having that gift, the Noble Beroeans will check it out to see if the scripture really teaches that. There is no hint of depending on some ecclesiasticals to tell the Beroeans what's what.

Being uncertain of an interpretation of scripture is an unavoidable experience by those who see through a glass darkly at times. But that problem is nothing like accepting ecclesiastical pronouncement which are not God's Word as the final authority. The ecclesiasticals disagree with each other. And with "church leaders" it is not merely a problem of interpretation, but of the fact that their word itself contains errors; whereas God's word does not.

I refer you to all of Psalm 119. Here is one sample where it is a "me" who understands, not some bunch of ecclesiaticals:


Thy commandments make me wiser than mine enemies;
For they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers;
For thy testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the aged,
Because I have kept thy precepts.









7

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

Proof?

you changed a believer from a professor to a confessor. Where does scripture do this?

So which is it Cassian? Is the Bible true because endorsed by tradition, or is tradition true because endorse by the Bible? Do you reason in a circle?

YOu would like a circle but scripture is part of Tradition which is a witness to the Truth who is Christ. Tradition does not create scripture, nor scripture tradition. Man has that problem, like you, where tradition dictates what scripture means.

Let's see your proof that anything outside the Bible is God's Word, that is, anything readily available to men in general today.

it is much more readily available today then when I needed to study. But the historical records are available to anyone at just a couple of clicks today. Have at it.

Whoever said all that? Straw man, Cassian.
Now what is your proof that when individual men read God's Word they are not responsible to obey it? How does your group get superior to the Bible?

Scripture says that Christ and the Holy Spirit were responsible for God's revelation to man. So, scripture testifies that the Holy Spirit is superior to scripture itself. That Revelation was entrusted to the Church, the Church Christ founded with the Apostles on this earth and has perserved both and will continue to do so until the end of time as He promised in scripture. Do you read to understand scripture, or just read it filtered through your man made lens/tradition.

What is your proof for all your party line?

I cited the scripture. Obviously you have a different interpretation through your man made tradition. You say I should read scripture but it seems more and more that you are reading a different Book that than which is called the Bible. Maybe one rewritten with your tradition as so many do.

What is your proof of that?

Scripture and history.

How does the fact of the Trinity prove your orthodox group is the Church, the Body of Christ? Trinity exists, therefore for the Orthodox are the Church???

Scripture and history.

What is your proof that that the Orthodox are by the same faith and is the Church?

Scripture and history.

Then stop using your party line as proof. Give heed to the plain word of God. No where does the Bible say that the Church is infallible.

I Tim 3:15. Read your Bible with more care and focus. You might learn something.

The Church is everyone who trusts Christ as Savior and has thus been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13). The Church is not any denomination.

Well, two things you got correct. Good for you.

That is a strange statement since you said above that you cannot prove it is infallible. If the Spirit works through the Church, that is no proof that it is infallible. Within the Church, throughout the centuries there have been many disagreements. It cannot be infallible.

I'm not the emperical scholastic that you are. I believe it is true, I don't need emperical evidence. I take it as scripture describes both Christ and the Holy Spirit. How come you cannot?
You obviously don't know the difference between individuals who make up the Church and the Church as a Body. Which is why the Gospel has NEVER been entrusted to individuals. There have been many disagreements, many became false teachings, but the Body corrected those individuals as did the example in Acts 15, the first "Ecumencial Council" of the Church. James even states that it was of the Holy Spirit. Again, read your Bible with more care.

Now what is your proof of that one? Your meaning of bishop is no where in the NT. In the NT bishops and elders are the same thing and there was never any monarchal bishop set up by the Lord. Elders are always plural when mentioned in a city church.

Again, you seem to have lost focus on scripture. Paul is quite exact in spelling out the qualifications of bishop, presbyter in I Tim 3. History bears out what the Apostles established already by 50 AD, with James as Bishop in Jerusalem. Scripture does have reality, you know. It is not just a myth, a philosophical idea.

 

[Atwood]

Jesus Christ resurrection and ascension made available the new birth = born of Spirit = salvation = filled with the Spirit via the gift of holy Spirit. Being born of the Spirit is salvation . . . . you can't separate the two.

Shalom Peaceful,

I note you quote no scripture.
I don't know any scripture that denies new birth to OT saints. New birth and regeneration are synonymous, but filled with the Spirit is something else; something a Christian may or may not have. Christians are exhorted to be filled with the Spirit, speaking to yourselves [not others] in psalms . . . singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. (Eph 5). Eph 3 uses uncertain language: "that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God." And Paul prays for them to that end, indicating it is not a given for a Christian. Christ may be pushed to the periphery instead of dwelling in the heart as He is trusted (by faith).

It should be obvious that Christians sin and when they sin they are not filled with the Spirit; but they are still regenerated, have the indwelling Spirit (who is grieved). There are distinct works of the Spirit, not to be confused, including baptism, filling, regenerating, sealing.

You say: "Being born of the Spirit is salvation . . . . you can't separate the two."
Then if you deny salvation to OT saints, you are saying that Abraham was not saved, justified by faith; but he was.

Whether or not OT saints were "born of the Spirit," we know they were saved.
To me it is a problem to say OT saints were not born of the Spirit also.
For there were godly men in the OT who walked with God (like Enoch).
And I don't see how they could have done anything good or walked with God without regeneration, having only the Adamic nature.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

Cassian, why do you go on and on just saying things without any Bible proof? It is a waste of time, if not participation in satanic "Yea, hath God said.
As to what is God's Word, again, either give proof or retract. We agree that the Bible is God's Word. Now if you have something else which you claim is God's Word, something readily available to men-in-general now, bring it forth an prove it. Or retract for addition(s) to the Bible.

Your history is faulty again. It is the other way around. The Bible itself is an addition. It is derived from the Oral Tradition that the Apostles gave to the early Church. History has recorded many accounts of this Tradition.
YOu disclaim it of necessity because it does not ever align with your personal interpretation.

The Lord Jesus says it is clear and authoritative, proving with "It is written" and chiding men for being slow of heart to believe it. Since it is God's Word and God is the ultimate authority, it is authoritative. Also profitable for rebuke and correction.

scripture makes the assumption that it also includes the meaning of that text from which is was taken, the Tradition, the Oral Teachings of the Apostles. It makes sense within the context of the Church which has the whole, not just the text.
Man has imposed many different traditions upon that text, all are different, then teach those traditions. Scripture, I can assure you, does not have thousands of interpretations.

1 Tim says not such thing. It is for the Man of God. But also it is the means of convicting the ungodly, like yourself.

Scripture will never say what it actually is when you impose your tradition upon it first. Why do you think there are thousands of variations, all to suit a persons particular personal interpretation. I'm with you on this. You cannot agree with scripture when it goes against your tradition. I fully understand.

I have both studied and taught Church History. I have the Church Fathers in my library as well as many history books.

One would not know that by what you post.

Your argument is not cogent. Neither do the verses you refer to prove your claims. Scripture is not of private interpretation; one may not take an isolated verse and make it contradict the rest of the Bible. The passage says nothing about some ecclesiastical authority being the official interpreter.

Of course not. If any text in all of scripture condemns the practice of sola scriptura, it is II Tim 1:20-21.
You have done a magnificent job of making that disclaimer. When it is quite obvious what it means.

The Gt Comm doesn't specify when it would be fulfilled, the going into all the world. I think probably the apostles and early disciples did that; though I don't know any proof that they reached the Western Hemisphere or Australia. It is possible, but also irrelevant to a discussion of eternal security or the authority of the Bible.

So you don't actually beleive that the Holy Spirit can actually succeed in having the Gospel spread over the world?

Most of what you posted is just you saying things -- proving nothing.

Of course, the best disclaimer you have going at the moment. But then what you have stated has already been debunked by scripture and history. I pointed out several man devised theories to which you hold. That is factual historical record as well.

Now I am going to answer your Present Tense Canard separately, as it is an old canard of yours and needs addressing.
PS
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

I could say you are just saying things. However, scripture is what disputes your claims, not me. You have presented not a single text, context that shows that a beleiver CANNOT LOSE FAITH. When you can do that, then you have made your first point.

 

[Cassian]

Cassian, you (in man-made tradition style) in the past posted objections to the plain statements of scripture on eternal security, raising the old present tense nonsense. So here is the answer to that below:

That is your assessment which you have yet to prove. While I have proven you are using man made traditions and interpretations.

Ye Olde Present Tense Canard, The PTC:

It has been claimed that the use of the present tense in Bible verses (which appear to assert security), destroys eternal security, as if the present tense were the only tense used in such contexts. On such a PTC perversion of God's promise, when scripture says that
"whosoever believes in Him should not perish,"
it may be claimed that the meaning is that whosoever continually believes and does not stop believing" does not perish, but if a Christian should slip up and stop believing some day, he is out of luck.

So if the Bible reports in some story: Joe eats pork chops, that would mean, Joe eats pork chops continually and never stops! So when James says "In many things we all stumble," the meaning would be that the Christian stumbles continually and never stops stumbling. This is perversion of the present tense.

But the Present Tense Canarder need give heed to the following in John 5:1

"Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves [present tense] [him also that is begotten of him."

On the PTC then, John 5:1 implies eternal security; for it would mean that the Christian not only loves God and other Christians, but continually loves God and other Christians without stopping! Surely only a saved person does that.

On the "present tense canard," this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost?

One way to translate the present tense is with progressive, on-going action, if the context permits it. "Joe eats" would then be "Joe is eating." But the present tense does not imply "without stopping." The present tense in this example does not mean "Joe continually eats and never stops." Actually in the appropriate context, the present tense can mean an action going on"is eating." But the idea of whether or not or how soon it stops is not implied by the present tense. "in many things we all stumble" cannot mean that Christianscontinually sin without stopping, nor even "continually sin.

When the NT says, "believes," it can be translated "is believing."
For the assurance which follows applies to the a Christian in his present time. If at that present time he is believing, he is promised (stretching into the future forever) that he will not perish. Thus if you are right now believing, trusting in Christ (an action indeed going on), you have assurance of eternal life as a consequence.

But to further clench the conclusion, it should be noted that sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used.

as Philippians 1:6b states:

"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will [ future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

The beginning began at a point in time. Christians don't ooze into being Christians. Their beginning is called a new birth (John 3) when they are begotten by God. A birth, by its very nature, occurs at a point in time. The new birth is a birth to a new life which is eternal, eternal life; i.e., regeneration, as in John 3:16 to everlasting life.

2 Cor 5:17 "Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."

John 5:1, 4,18 calls the Christian "begotten of God,"

5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him."

As noted above, on the "present tense canard" this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost? If love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), then how could this man in whose being the Spirit continually brings forth love (without stopping) ever become unsaved?

But when the present tense is used for on-going action, the present tense itself does not indicate "without stopping" nor any particular continuation time.

YOu present a good case of rationalizing scripture out of any meaning just so your man made theory of OSAS can supposedly exist in scripture.
I noted that not one of these references ever stated that man, a believer, CANNOT LOSE FAITH. That is what you need to prove.
You have failed yet again.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,
you changed a believer from a professor to a confessor. Where does scripture do this?

Why do you care, since you deny the authority of scripture?

YOu would like a circle but scripture is part of Tradition which is a witness to the Truth who is Christ.

The Word of God was passed by prophets; so you can call it a prophetic tradition. But what you refer to as "tradition" is the tradition of men, quite something different. Something forbidden as authority. You can't put God's Word in the same bag as man's word.

Now you go on just saying things; such claims merit no response as they go nowhere, no Bible proof. And you saying it is irrelevant.

Scripture says that Christ and the Holy Spirit were responsible for God's revelation to man. So, scripture testifies that the Holy Spirit is superior to scripture itself.

Where is that scripture which says "Superior"?

I cited the scripture.

Don't be absurd; anyone and everyone can see that you run on pontificating without quoting verses or proving from them. And you have denied the authority of God's Word.

I Tim 3:15.

If you have an argument, quote your verse and argue from it. But you already said you don't accept God's Word as the authority.

[/quote]There have been many disagreements, many became false teachings, but the Body corrected those individuals as did the example in Acts 15, the first "Ecumencial Council" of the Church. James even states that it was of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Prove your claim from the Bible or retract. I note that salvation by faith was asserted there:

"And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith."

Again, you seem to have lost focus on scripture. Paul is quite exact in spelling out the qualifications of bishop, presbyter in I Tim 3. History bears out what the Apostles established already by 50 AD, with James as Bishop in Jerusalem.

Prove it Cassian. 1 Tim 3 says nothing about James being a bishop. You can't find any scripture to endorse the concept of a bishop as a city monarch.

Scripture does have reality, you know. It is not just a myth, a philosophical idea.

So you repent of denying its authority?

Speaking of looking a scripture carefully,
I suggest you consider the following carefully:

Ye Olde Present Tense Canard, The PTC:

It has been claimed that the use of the present tense in Bible verses (which appear to assert security), destroys eternal security, as if the present tense were the only tense used in such contexts. On such a PTC perversion of God's promise, when scripture says that
"whosoever believes in Him should not perish,"
it may be claimed that the meaning is that whosoever continually believes and does not stop believing" does not perish, but if a Christian should slip up and stop believing some day, he is out of luck.

So if the Bible reports in some story: Joe eats pork chops, that would mean, Joe eats pork chops continually and never stops! So when James says "In many things we all stumble," the meaning would be that the Christian stumbles continually and never stops stumbling. This is perversion of the present tense.

But the Present Tense Canarder need give heed to the following in John 5:1

"Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves [present tense] [him also that is begotten of him."

On the PTC then, John 5:1 implies eternal security; for it would mean that the Christian not only loves God and other Christians, but continually loves God and other Christians without stopping! Surely only a saved person does that.

On the "present tense canard," this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost?

One way to translate the present tense is with progressive, on-going action, if the context permits it. "Joe eats" would then be "Joe is eating." But the present tense does not imply "without stopping." The present tense in this example does not mean "Joe continually eats and never stops." Actually in the appropriate context, the present tense can mean an action going on"is eating." But the idea of whether or not or how soon it stops is not implied by the present tense. "in many things we all stumble" cannot mean that Christianscontinually sin without stopping, nor even "continually sin.

When the NT says, "believes," it can be translated "is believing."
For the assurance which follows applies to the a Christian in his present time. If at that present time he is believing, he is promised (stretching into the future forever) that he will not perish. Thus if you are right now believing, trusting in Christ (an action indeed going on), you have assurance of eternal life as a consequence.

But to further clench the conclusion, it should be noted that sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used.

as Philippians 1:6b states:

"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will [ future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

The beginning began at a point in time. Christians don't ooze into being Christians. Their beginning is called a new birth (John 3) when they are begotten by God. A birth, by its very nature, occurs at a point in time. The new birth is a birth to a new life which is eternal, eternal life; i.e., regeneration, as in John 3:16 to everlasting life.

2 Cor 5:17 "Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."

John 5:1, 4,18 calls the Christian "begotten of God,"

5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him."

As noted above, on the "present tense canard" this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost? If love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), then how could this man in whose being the Spirit continually brings forth love (without stopping) ever become unsaved?

But when the present tense is used for on-going action, the present tense itself does not indicate "without stopping" nor any particular continuation time.

 

[Atwood]

That is your assessment which you have yet to prove. While I have proven you are using man made traditions and interpretations.

On the contrary I posted proof, citing scripture, not like you who just go on spouting party-line.

I noted that not one of these references ever stated that man, a believer, CANNOT LOSE FAITH. That is what you need to prove.
You have failed yet again.

No, I don't need to prove that. All I need do is post the plain statements of scripture that believers are eternally secure.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[FrancisDeSales]

E=Atwood;1539208]The command which you must obey for eternal salvation is "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." Over and over again, it is reiterated that all a man must do to be saved is to believe in or trust the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

What do you do with this verse?
"Being made perfect he became the source of ETERNAL LIFE for all who OBEY him" Hebrews 5:9

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,

Your history is faulty again.

Cassian, I am going to ignore a lot of what you post when it is just you saying it, and no proof is given. You saying it, proves nothing. If you quote a verse and argue from it, we may have a profitable discussion.

If any text in all of scripture condemns the practice of sola scriptura, it is II Tim 1:20-21.

I am not arguing "sola scriptura." I claim that I have God's Word in the Bible, and that is the only document I know of which is God's Word (and which is generally available to men in general on earth). 2 Timothy says nothing contrary to that.
Now if you have some other document that you claim is God's word, bring it forth and prove it -- or retract your claim.

Do you see yourself, just going on & on saying things, spouting party-line, but proving nothing. At best you waste time. Do you really suppose that the readers will believe you just because you say it?

You have presented not a single text, context that shows that a beleiver CANNOT LOSE FAITH. When you can do that, then you have made your first point.

What I have done is to present the evidence from God's word that the believer in Christ has eternal life and will never perish.
The evidence is overwhelming and abundant. Deduce what you will from that about the possibility of losing faith in the light of the Lord Jesus' intercession for Peter in the wheat sift passage. Deduce what you will from 1 John saying that apostates prove that they were never in the Body of Christ by their departure.

Thy Word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.


Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

At the heart of the debate of eternal security with those like Cassian, is the dispute about the authority of the Bible. For no matter what scripture one quotes to such persons, they are likely to reject the plain meaning because they hold ecclesiastical tradition to have higher authority.

I notice the disclaimer again. Something I have never stated, nor does scripture. My claim is that the Holy Spirit is much higher in autthority than man over Christ's Gospel but specifically the text. We have already shown that OSAS is NOT the plain reading of scripture. It is the imposed supposition made by ONLY Calvin upon scripture with his umbrella doctrine of Predestination. You have yet to produce any texts or contexts that OSAS was a teaching of scripture from the beginning, or that scripture states that a believer CANNOT LOSE FAITH.

Dear Cassian, thanks for sharing your testimony with me. Now you may deny the authority of the Scripture whilst I slice up your demons with that sword (Eph 6) which the Bible orders me to use.

Well, you can save you slice. All sola scripturist make the claim that scripture is their authority. Scripture is their lone source of faith and practice. Now, 500 years later, this authoritative scripture has produced thousands of interpretations. From Luther being the first to the latest, Marshall Summers. I would say that is a monumental failure of scripture having any authority. If it means one can develop personal religions, then I will concede that it is very authoritative.

Once you discard the authority of scripture and decide to make ecclesiastical tradition your authority, you are in hot water. Indeed, men disagree on what the Bible means here and there; but ecclesiastical tradition is not merely of uncertain interpretation, but actually contradicts itself. "Church fathers" outright contradict each other. And then how do you know which one to pick; do you not badmouth (Saint) Augustine?

I don't discard the authority of scripture when one recognizes that Christ is the authority over that scripure, not man. Wheh man imposes his personal authority then we have all these variations/interpretations by the hundreds. Men do not disagree here and there. The differences between the first two, Luther and Calvin are opposites of each other. They established different Christs, different way one is saved. Even how man fell. There is not much that can be stated the same between them. And the differences mount as we proceed down history.
All the slicing you can do is with your man made tradition which hardly has any authority whatsoever.

Once you have thrown out the Bible, you have no proof for much of anything theologically. You have no proof that your ecclesiasticals are telling God's truth. You are in worse shape than sheep who hear the Master's Voice. You think it is better that the sheep not listen to the master's voice, but listen to some ecclesiasticals who relay the message with cacophonous discord among themselves and intrinsic fallibility. Are you familiar with Pierre Abélard's Sic et Non, where their contradictions are enumerated?

You're preaching to your choir of sola scripturists who have made scripture null and void. It is self condemnation. You are speaking directly about yourself.

The Lord Jesus expressly condemned the authority of the traditions. He contrasted His teaching with tradition in the Sermon on the Mount: "You have heard that it was said by them of old blah blah, but I say to you."

He sure did, so why are you part of only one tradition, though there are thousands?
So, why not believe in HIS Revelation given to man, to the Apostles, Holy Tradition which has also been passed down, preserved, unchanged by the work and promise of the Holy Spirit. Yet, another self condemnation statement.

Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God said, Honor thy father and thy mother: and, He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, That wherewith thou mightest have been profited by me is given to God; he shall not honor his father . And ye have made void the word of God because of your tradition. Ye hypocrites," - Mat 15

It is speaking directly at you, Atwood. Take heed. You have sliced yourself and you don't know it.

7 But in vain do they worship me,
Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.

Ah, yes, Atwood, false teachings of Augustine, Anselm, Calvin and Darby. We should add your self into it as well.

8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. 9 And he said unto them, Full well do ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your tradition. . . . making void the word of God by your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things ye do. Mark 7

another self condemnatory statement. What tradition do you hold to precisely? Pretty much most of Calvinism it seems.

Take heed lest there shall be any one that maketh spoil of you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

all these self condemnatory statements. The only person you are addressing here is yourself. You hold to one of the thousands of man made traditions and man made theories imposed upon scripture.
The rest of your post has the same message, directed right at you and all your sola scirpturist counterparts. You have made the Bible null and void by all the traditions that have been produced from a text.

 

[psalm6819]

One can niether save one's self nor keep one's self. Jesus gives us His righteousness and the Holy Spirit seals us, both showing us the love, mercy and faithfulness of the Father.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

Why do you care, since you deny the authority of scripture?

can you prove, which you have not done so far, that scripture has authority? I already showed that scripture of itself, an isolated text, does not have authority and the last 500 years of sola scriptura has manifestly proclaimed that it does not. What is shows is that man has imposed his own authority over that text and developed thousands of interpretations from just one text. Hardly authoritative in itself.

The Word of God was passed by prophets; so you can call it a prophetic tradition. But what you refer to as "tradition" is the tradition of men, quite something different. Something forbidden as authority. You can't put God's Word in the same bag as man's word.

quite the contrare. I stated quite clearly that Holy Tradition is prophetic in that it was given by the Apostles. It is the inspired Word of God.
What is forbiden is your man made traditions developed by individual men, like you.

Where is that scripture which says "Superior"?

so now you need to demonize the Holy Spirit to elevate your own private interpretations of a text. You're getting close to blasphemy here.

Don't be absurd; anyone and everyone can see that you run on pontificating without quoting verses or proving from them. And you have denied the authority of God's Word.

I have not denied God's word, scripture at all. I just denied that scripture in itself has no authority. It authority is Christ. However, you and all sola scripturist who claim scripture has authority, actually are placing their own personal authority over scripture. You have eliminated the Holy Spirit altogether. You have isolated the text from its source, authority, content and context, so that you a modern man can develop your own personal religion for the text.

If you have an argument, quote your verse and argue from it. But you already said you don't accept God's Word as the authority.

There have been many disagreements, many became false teachings, but the Body corrected those individuals as did the example in Acts 15, the first "Ecumencial Council" of the Church. James even states that it was of the Holy Spirit.[/quote]
Prove your claim from the Bible or retract. I note that salvation by faith was asserted there:[/quote] another case of denying clear scripture. If one cites scripture then you deny it. I guess it works both ways when man is his own authority. Cannot give an inch to what scripture actually means, but in every case needs to insert his own authority. YOu are a grand, actually superior, sola scripturist. The best I have interacted with ever.

Prove it Cassian. 1 Tim 3 says nothing about James being a bishop. You can't find any scripture to endorse the concept of a bishop as a city monarch.

acts 15:13 states so, history lists him as the first bishop at Jerusalem.
So, we have once again a man denying scripture so he can impose his own interpretation upon the text and actually history itself. How true to form.
You are not doing very well, Atwood. YOu condemn your own practices, you prove scripture has not authority of itself, but that you need to impose your personal authority over what it means. That is called a man made tradition.
As far as your Cunard, you still have not produced the text that will support OSAS. YOu need a text that says man's faith is guaranteed, or that man CANNOT LOSE FAITH. So far, 1049 posts and not a shred of evidence.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

On the contrary I posted proof, citing scripture, not like you who just go on spouting party-line.

You posted scripture that says scripture is actually man made doctrine?
By the way, all Christians should have the same party-line. The gospel of Christ, the same from the beginning. If it is NOT from the beginning it is false. Oh, that would be OSAS among others.

No, I don't need to prove that. All I need do is post the plain statements of scripture that believers are eternally secure.

In that you have failed. Scripture is very clear that a believer can lost faith. It speaks diametrically opposite of your premise. Which is why OSAS is a false doctrine.
YOu can cite the entire Bible, Atwood, you will never find the text that supports OSAS. The only way is that you or really Calvin asserted his authority upon the text to force, impose his interpretation upon scripture. It is classic historical record. You cannot change scripture, nor can you change history. You are kicking against the pricks.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,


Cassian, I am going to ignore a lot of what you post when it is just you saying it, and no proof is given. You saying it, proves nothing. If you quote a verse and argue from it, we may have a profitable discussion.


I am not arguing "sola scriptura." I claim that I have God's Word in the Bible, and that is the only document I know of which is God's Word (and which is generally available to men in general on earth). 2 Timothy says nothing contrary to that.
Now if you have some other document that you claim is God's word, bring it forth and prove it -- or retract your claim.

Do you see yourself, just going on & on saying things, spouting party-line, but proving nothing. At best you waste time. Do you really suppose that the readers will believe you just because you say it?



What I have done is to present the evidence from God's word that the believer in Christ has eternal life and will never perish.
The evidence is overwhelming and abundant. Deduce what you will from that about the possibility of losing faith in the light of the Lord Jesus' intercession for Peter in the wheat sift passage. Deduce what you will from 1 John saying that apostates prove that they were never in the Body of Christ by their departure.

Thy Word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.


Romans 8:34
Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

so nothing of substance again. Just more of your statements espousing a false man made teaching, OSAS. I think everyone will get the drift and will check it out for themselves and be a Berean. Not a sola scripturists who first interprets scripture to his own specifications then checks if anything aligns with it. But a true Berean.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,

I notice the disclaimer again.

Cassian, you did it again; filled the screen with your words. They are irrelevant. The Word of God is what proves. "It is written."

Try trusting the Lord Jesus, who loves you and died for you) as your Savior. Believe, have faith in Him.
Focus on the Word & the Lord Jesus, not me, not your group:

"
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one should boast

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

JOHN 20:30
Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.

Act 13:48
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 Tim 1:15-17
Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God.

Eph 1:10ff
to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; 12 to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: 13 in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Luke 8:11-12
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 And those by the way side are they that have heard; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh shall be justified.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believes may in him have eternal life.

 

[Atwood]

I think everyone will get the drift and will check it out for themselves and be a Berean. Not a sola scripturists who first interprets scripture to his own specifications then checks if anything aligns with it. But a true Berean.

Great!

Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:21-30

But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; 26 for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:1ff

:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.

Rom 10:4ff

For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,

Scripture is very clear that a believer can lost faith..[/QUOTE]

You give no scripture. Prove it Cassian. But mostly focus on how to be saved:

John 3:14-18

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 1For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 1He that believes on him is not judged: he that believes not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only Son of God.

John 5:24
2Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.

John 10:27
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

1 John 5:10-12
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in him: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he hath not believed in the witness that God hath borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life.

Ps 37:5-6
Commit thy way unto YHWH;
Trust also in him, and he will bring it to pass.
And he will make thy righteousness to go forth as the light,
And thy justice as the noonday.


Acts 15:8

And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 26:18b

that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

 

[Atwood]

Atwood,

More verbiage, Cassian. Quote your verse; give your proof.

acts 15:13 states so,

No it doesn't. How can you write such a falsehood? James is never called a bishop in Acts 15.

history lists him as the first bishop at Jerusalem.

No it doesn't. Some may give that as an opinion. But lets see two witnesses, contemporary sources that call James a bishop, and that call him a bishop in the sense of the sole head ruler of a city church.
Prove it or retract.

BTW at Ephesus the Ephesian elders (plural) are called bishops (plural): 28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.

YOu need a text that says man's faith is guaranteed, or that man CANNOT LOSE FAITH.

No I do not. You made the claim; you prove it. To prove eternal security, all that is required is to post verses that assert it, which I abundantly have. Your idea about losing faith is dreamed up on your side and is something you have to prove. I wait for your verses.

Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.

Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.