It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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Originally Posted by Atwood
Ye Olde Present Tense Canard, The PTC:
It has been claimed that the use of the present tense in Bible verses (which appear to assert security), destroys eternal security, as if the present tense were the only tense used in such contexts. On such a PTC perversion of God's promise, when scripture says "that whosoeverbelieves in Him should not perish," it may be claimed that the meaning is that whosoevercontinually believes and does not stop believing" does not perish, but if a Christian should slip up and stop believing some day, he is out of luck.
So if the Bible reports in some story: Joe eats pork chops, that would mean, Joe eats pork chops continually and never stops! So when James says "In many things we all stumble," the meaning would be that the Christian stumbles continually and never stops stumbling. This is perversion of the present tense.
But the Present Tense Canarder need give heed to the following in John 5:1 " "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves [present tense] [him also that is begotten of him."
On the PTC then, John 5:1 implies eternal security; for it would mean that the Christian not only loves God and other Christians, but continually loves God and other Christians without stopping! Surely only a saved person does that.
On the "present tense canard," this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost?
One way to translate the present tense is with progressive, on-going action, if the context permits it. "Joe eats" would then be "Joe is eating." But the present tense does not imply "without stopping." The present tense in this example does not mean "Joe continually eats and never stops." Actually in the appropriate context, the present tense can mean an action going on "is eating." But the idea of whether or not or how soon it stops is not implied by the present tense. "in many things we all stumble" cannot mean that Christians continually sin without stopping, nor even "continually sin.
When the NT says, "believes," it can be translated "is believing."
For the assurance which follows applies to the a Christian in his present time. If at that present time he is believing, he is promised (stretching into the future forever) that he will not perish. Thus if you are right now believing, trusting in Christ (an action indeed going on), you have assurance of eternal life as a consequence.
But to further clench the conclusion, it should be noted that sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used.
as Philippians 1:6b states:
"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will [future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
The beginning began at a point in time. Christians don't ooze into being Christians. Their beginning is called a new birth (John 3) when they are begotten by God. A birth, by its very nature, occurs at a point in time. The new birth is a birth to a new life which is eternal, eternal life; i.e., regeneration, as in John 3:16 to everlasting life.
2 Cor 5:17 "Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."
John 5:1, 4,18 calls the Christian "begotten of God,"
5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him."
As noted above, on the "present tense canard" this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost? If love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), then how could this man in whose being the Spirit continually brings forth love (without stopping) ever become unsaved?
But when the present tense is used for on-going action, the present tense itself does not indicate "without stopping" nor any particular continuation time.
Yes, the text says "will perform it" with no conditions added; the implied condition is that He began it (which cannot be undone). One does not begin a work conditionally; you begin it or you don't. The beginning is not a matter of condition. The condition question comes in the continuation; and that is affirmed here.
Because the present tense may be used where action is continuing does not prove it always means that; nor does the fact of continuing action imply how long. If a man is sinning (in many things we all stumble -- present tense, it does not imply that we Christians sin continually and certainly not "continually without stopping." When the present tense is used for a process in action, that says nothing about how long it lasts; and often "continuous" is a distortion of its meaning.
But there is no evidence that Christians ever stop trusting Christ to get them to Heaven, neither is it reasonable that once just for believing, a new nature has been given to Christians (they have been begotten by God in the past) to suppose that they could be unborn and lose that nature. Scripture never has any such hint. Instead it declares that the believer has eternal life.
sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used, but the past tense:
as Philippians 1:6b states:
"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will[future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
----------------------
that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one soul striving for the faith of the gospel; and in nothing affrighted by the adversaries: which is for them an evident token of perdition, but of your salvation, and that from God; because to you it has been granted [past time] in the behalf of Christ, not only
to believe [present tense!] on him,
but also to suffer in his behalf:
< Philip 1
If present tense means to continue without stopping, then it has been granted [gift of God] to Christians to believe continually without stopping!
Ye Olde Present Tense Canard, The PTC:
It has been claimed that the use of the present tense in Bible verses (which appear to assert security), destroys eternal security, as if the present tense were the only tense used in such contexts. On such a PTC perversion of God's promise, when scripture says "that whosoeverbelieves in Him should not perish," it may be claimed that the meaning is that whosoevercontinually believes and does not stop believing" does not perish, but if a Christian should slip up and stop believing some day, he is out of luck.
So if the Bible reports in some story: Joe eats pork chops, that would mean, Joe eats pork chops continually and never stops! So when James says "In many things we all stumble," the meaning would be that the Christian stumbles continually and never stops stumbling. This is perversion of the present tense.
But the Present Tense Canarder need give heed to the following in John 5:1 " "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves [present tense] [him also that is begotten of him."
On the PTC then, John 5:1 implies eternal security; for it would mean that the Christian not only loves God and other Christians, but continually loves God and other Christians without stopping! Surely only a saved person does that.
On the "present tense canard," this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost?
One way to translate the present tense is with progressive, on-going action, if the context permits it. "Joe eats" would then be "Joe is eating." But the present tense does not imply "without stopping." The present tense in this example does not mean "Joe continually eats and never stops." Actually in the appropriate context, the present tense can mean an action going on "is eating." But the idea of whether or not or how soon it stops is not implied by the present tense. "in many things we all stumble" cannot mean that Christians continually sin without stopping, nor even "continually sin.
When the NT says, "believes," it can be translated "is believing."
For the assurance which follows applies to the a Christian in his present time. If at that present time he is believing, he is promised (stretching into the future forever) that he will not perish. Thus if you are right now believing, trusting in Christ (an action indeed going on), you have assurance of eternal life as a consequence.
But to further clench the conclusion, it should be noted that sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used.
as Philippians 1:6b states:
"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will [future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
The beginning began at a point in time. Christians don't ooze into being Christians. Their beginning is called a new birth (John 3) when they are begotten by God. A birth, by its very nature, occurs at a point in time. The new birth is a birth to a new life which is eternal, eternal life; i.e., regeneration, as in John 3:16 to everlasting life.
2 Cor 5:17 "Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."
John 5:1, 4,18 calls the Christian "begotten of God,"
5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him."
As noted above, on the "present tense canard" this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost? If love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), then how could this man in whose being the Spirit continually brings forth love (without stopping) ever become unsaved?
But when the present tense is used for on-going action, the present tense itself does not indicate "without stopping" nor any particular continuation time.
Yes, the text says "will perform it" with no conditions added; the implied condition is that He began it (which cannot be undone). One does not begin a work conditionally; you begin it or you don't. The beginning is not a matter of condition. The condition question comes in the continuation; and that is affirmed here.
Because the present tense may be used where action is continuing does not prove it always means that; nor does the fact of continuing action imply how long. If a man is sinning (in many things we all stumble -- present tense, it does not imply that we Christians sin continually and certainly not "continually without stopping." When the present tense is used for a process in action, that says nothing about how long it lasts; and often "continuous" is a distortion of its meaning.
But there is no evidence that Christians ever stop trusting Christ to get them to Heaven, neither is it reasonable that once just for believing, a new nature has been given to Christians (they have been begotten by God in the past) to suppose that they could be unborn and lose that nature. Scripture never has any such hint. Instead it declares that the believer has eternal life.
sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used, but the past tense:
as Philippians 1:6b states:
"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will[future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "
----------------------
that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one soul striving for the faith of the gospel; and in nothing affrighted by the adversaries: which is for them an evident token of perdition, but of your salvation, and that from God; because to you it has been granted [past time] in the behalf of Christ, not only
to believe [present tense!] on him,
but also to suffer in his behalf:
< Philip 1
If present tense means to continue without stopping, then it has been granted [gift of God] to Christians to believe continually without stopping!
The text does NOT say "Will perform it unconditionally no matter what the Philippians do".
Again....those Philippians had become Christians IN THE PAST so God started to perform that good work IN THE PAST back when they became Christians.
I cannot prove a verse that does not exist and no verse exists that says God will remain faithful and save those that become unfaithful to Him.
as Christ sheep and God is faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand. One that quits, become unfaithful in his hearing and following no longer qualifies as one of "MY" sheep removing himself from God's hand.[/quote]
Who owns the sheep is identified by which ones hear and follow. Those that do not hear and follow are not part of "MY" sheep.
"I give them eternal life" the "them" refer only to those ones that hear and follow. So if one quits hearing and following he is no longer one of the 'them".
Repeating this does not help your position.
as Christ sheep and God is faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand. One that quits, become unfaithful in his hearing and following no longer qualifies as one of "MY" sheep removing himself from God's hand.[/quote]
Who owns the sheep is identified by which ones hear and follow. Those that do not hear and follow are not part of "MY" sheep.
"I give them eternal life" the "them" refer only to those ones that hear and follow. So if one quits hearing and following he is no longer one of the 'them".
Repeating this does not help your position.
Saved, Saves, Salvation, Savior: Hopeful Terms for the Sinner
Attention Those Who Deny Eternal Security:
Do you realize that when you use the Save/Savior terms, you do not even mean that same thing by them that we do? When you say save/saves/saved/saving/salvation/Savior, you mean that the Lord Jesus gives you a chance to be saved, if you do this or that in addition to him giving you a chance at eternal life. In fact, you deny salvation, and you deny that He is your Savior; at best He is a factor in your obtaining eternal life or a partial-savior.
When we say save/saves/saved/saving/salvation/Savior we mean that the Lord Jesus has changed our nature permanently to child of God and secured our blessed destiny to be with Him in a permanent state of bliss. We mean that we are sinners and have to be saved. He is the Savior; we are His savee.
Can You Sing It!?
Jesus! I do now receive Him,
More than all in Him I find.
He hath granted me forgiveness,
I am His, and He is mine.
Refrain
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
Hallelujah! what a Friend!
Saving, helping, keeping, loving,
He is with me to the end.
Jesus! what a Friend for sinners!
Jesus! Lover of my soul;
Friends may fail me, foes assail me,
He, my Savior, makes me whole.
Jesus! what a Strength in weakness!
Let me hide myself in Him.
Tempted, tried, and sometimes failing,
He, my Strength, my victory wins.
Jesus! what a Help in sorrow!
While the billows over me roll,
Even when my heart is breaking,
He, my Comfort, helps my soul.
Jesus! what a Guide and Keeper!
While the tempest still is high,
Storms about me, night overtakes me,
He, my Pilot, hears my cry.
Attention Those Who Deny Eternal Security:
Do you realize that when you use the Save/Savior terms, you do not even mean that same thing by them that we do? When you say save/saves/saved/saving/salvation/Savior, you mean that the Lord Jesus gives you a chance to be saved, if you do this or that in addition to him giving you a chance at eternal life. In fact, you deny salvation, and you deny that He is your Savior; at best He is a factor in your obtaining eternal life or a partial-savior.
When we say save/saves/saved/saving/salvation/Savior we mean that the Lord Jesus has changed our nature permanently to child of God and secured our blessed destiny to be with Him in a permanent state of bliss. We mean that we are sinners and have to be saved. He is the Savior; we are His savee.
Can You Sing It!?
Jesus! I do now receive Him,
More than all in Him I find.
He hath granted me forgiveness,
I am His, and He is mine.
Refrain
Hallelujah! what a Savior!
Hallelujah! what a Friend!
Saving, helping, keeping, loving,
He is with me to the end.
Jesus! what a Friend for sinners!
Jesus! Lover of my soul;
Friends may fail me, foes assail me,
He, my Savior, makes me whole.
Jesus! what a Strength in weakness!
Let me hide myself in Him.
Tempted, tried, and sometimes failing,
He, my Strength, my victory wins.
Jesus! what a Help in sorrow!
While the billows over me roll,
Even when my heart is breaking,
He, my Comfort, helps my soul.
Jesus! what a Guide and Keeper!
While the tempest still is high,
Storms about me, night overtakes me,
He, my Pilot, hears my cry.
SeaBass, do you suppose that all of the descendants of Jacob were God's elect?
Rom 9
"For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed."
Consider the days of Elijah, how many Israelites were there (by God's estimation. There were 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. Ahab asked Elijah a question:
Then he said, Who shall begin the battle? And he answered, Thou. Then he mustered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were 232: and after them he mustered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being 7,000.
We should no more confuse the physical nation of Israel with God's elect than we should confuse professed Christians with God's elect. Of course the majority of Israel were idolaters. Only a remnant were worshippers of YHWH believing in Him as their Savior. Of course the nation was judged as a whole. We ought not to confuse the salvation of individuals with God's national dealings. The general populace was quite at odds with the men of God in their midst. I am confident of seeing Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel in heaven, if not the mass of Israelites or "church members."
The mass of Israel was not God's sheep.
John 10:27
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."
Rom 9
"For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel: neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed."
Consider the days of Elijah, how many Israelites were there (by God's estimation. There were 7000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal. Ahab asked Elijah a question:
Then he said, Who shall begin the battle? And he answered, Thou. Then he mustered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were 232: and after them he mustered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being 7,000.
We should no more confuse the physical nation of Israel with God's elect than we should confuse professed Christians with God's elect. Of course the majority of Israel were idolaters. Only a remnant were worshippers of YHWH believing in Him as their Savior. Of course the nation was judged as a whole. We ought not to confuse the salvation of individuals with God's national dealings. The general populace was quite at odds with the men of God in their midst. I am confident of seeing Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel in heaven, if not the mass of Israelites or "church members."
The mass of Israel was not God's sheep.
John 10:27
"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand."
Originally Posted by Atwood
The text says not such thing, it says that of the sheep: "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish!" It is a gift given to sheep.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
Originally Posted by Atwood
Stop making things up Seabass. The condition of God continuing the work to completion is that He began it, nothing else.
He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.
Dear Seabass, turn away from the lies of the enemy. Eternal life is yours if only you will trust the Savior completely with your destiny. Take the knee now. Do your vocal cords work? For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!
If you make a claim, you need to prove it. If you can't prove it, retract. Your up and saying that "no verse exists" proves nothing. God was faithful to Peter, when Peter was unfaithful. God commends His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Salvation is by grace, that means faithfully loving to the sinfully unfaithful. Regardless of worrying over this or that, "like God being faithful," you must focus on what scripture says on believing, salvation, and eternal life.
He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.
There is nothing in the text about anyone removing himself; you make it up. And if nobody can remove a Christian from salvation, that includes the Christian himself. Moreover, it does just say that no one can snatch the believer from the hand, it also says:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Don't you know what never and eternal mean?
The text clearly says that the ones who get eternal life are sheep and that the sheep never perish. The statement is about the security of the sheep, the believers in Christ, those who trust Him as SAvior. There is nothing about hearing and following, but the statement that they do hear and follow. Refrain from perverting the text and changing it from what it says. All your human statements change nothing:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
"Repeating this
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
"does not help
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
"your position."
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
This is not merely "my position" but Thus Saith The Lord.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
The word of God is the sword. It swings; it slices; it conquers.
It can slice up your demons.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
The text says not such thing, it says that of the sheep: "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish!" It is a gift given to sheep.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
Originally Posted by Atwood
Stop making things up Seabass. The condition of God continuing the work to completion is that He began it, nothing else.
He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.
Dear Seabass, turn away from the lies of the enemy. Eternal life is yours if only you will trust the Savior completely with your destiny. Take the knee now. Do your vocal cords work? For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved!
If you make a claim, you need to prove it. If you can't prove it, retract. Your up and saying that "no verse exists" proves nothing. God was faithful to Peter, when Peter was unfaithful. God commends His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Salvation is by grace, that means faithfully loving to the sinfully unfaithful. Regardless of worrying over this or that, "like God being faithful," you must focus on what scripture says on believing, salvation, and eternal life.
He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion.
There is nothing in the text about anyone removing himself; you make it up. And if nobody can remove a Christian from salvation, that includes the Christian himself. Moreover, it does just say that no one can snatch the believer from the hand, it also says:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Don't you know what never and eternal mean?
The text clearly says that the ones who get eternal life are sheep and that the sheep never perish. The statement is about the security of the sheep, the believers in Christ, those who trust Him as SAvior. There is nothing about hearing and following, but the statement that they do hear and follow. Refrain from perverting the text and changing it from what it says. All your human statements change nothing:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
"Repeating this
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
"does not help
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
"your position."
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
This is not merely "my position" but Thus Saith The Lord.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
The word of God is the sword. It swings; it slices; it conquers.
It can slice up your demons.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
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Atwood,
You are very confused regarding those terms. What do you think John 4:42, and I John 4:14 means? The very world, every single human being was saved. (past tense).
Your theology seems to overlook the work of Christ by His Incarnation, death and resurrection. What are you actually believing in, in the first place?
You are very confused regarding those terms. What do you think John 4:42, and I John 4:14 means? The very world, every single human being was saved. (past tense).
Your theology seems to overlook the work of Christ by His Incarnation, death and resurrection. What are you actually believing in, in the first place?
Originally Posted by Atwood
Dear SeaBass,
No ifs ands or buts,
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
Yes, hand and hand with salvation by grace goes depravity of man.
I think that a big reason for rejecting grace is that a man thinks he is righteous and doesn't need it. I think that the ungodly man wants validation of his works. The idea that God would endorse his behavior seems hard to shake off. But to be saved one needs the attitude of God be merciful to me a sinner. We realize that we have no hope, but by the saving power and the shed blood of our Savior. Once you realize that the depraved man of Romans 1 is yourself, what can you do but look for grace. "For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Dear SeaBass,
No ifs ands or buts,
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
Yes, hand and hand with salvation by grace goes depravity of man.
I think that a big reason for rejecting grace is that a man thinks he is righteous and doesn't need it. I think that the ungodly man wants validation of his works. The idea that God would endorse his behavior seems hard to shake off. But to be saved one needs the attitude of God be merciful to me a sinner. We realize that we have no hope, but by the saving power and the shed blood of our Savior. Once you realize that the depraved man of Romans 1 is yourself, what can you do but look for grace. "For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Do you realize that when you use the Save/Savior terms, you do not even mean that same thing by them that we do? When you saysave/saves/saved/saving/salvation/Savior, you mean that the Lord Jesus gives you a chance to be saved, if you do this or that in addition to him giving you a chance at eternal life. In fact, you deny salvation, and you deny that He is your Savior; at best He is a factor in your obtaining eternal life or a partial-savior.
When we say save/saves/saved/saving/salvation/Savior we mean that the Lord Jesus has changed our nature permanently to child of God and secured our blessed destiny to be with Him in a permanent state of bliss. We mean that we are sinners and have to be saved. He is the Savior; we are His savee.
Quote your verses and make your claims. Since the topic is salvation and eternal life, be sure that your verses refer directly to those terms.
You are very confused
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
regarding those terms.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
Are you making up verses? The Lord does not say that in either 1 John nor John.
John 10:
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Clearly not everyone believes. Clearly not everyone is saved. No verse says that every single human being was saved to eternal life. The opinion of the Samaritans proves nothing. His death is sufficient payment for the sins of the World; but it is only efficient for the believer. God so loved the world that He gave His unique Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Even the ungodly unbeliever gets a measure of salvation in that the rain falls on the just and the unjust and when they (like you) get an opportunity to believe, a human lifetime to consider the offer. But eternal life goes only to the believer. You have no scripture saying that unbelievers receive eternal life. And no matter what objection you come up from this or that statement (which doesn't even mention "eternal life"), the fact remains for the believer:
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
Your theology seems to overlook
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
the work of Christ by His Incarnation, death and resurrection.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
It is in Whom do I believe? Whom do I trust?
My faith has found a resting place,
Not in device or creed;
I trust the everliving one,
His wounds for me shall plead;
I need no other argument;
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died;
And that He died for me.
I trust with my eternal destiny the God-Man who declared:
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
When we say save/saves/saved/saving/salvation/Savior we mean that the Lord Jesus has changed our nature permanently to child of God and secured our blessed destiny to be with Him in a permanent state of bliss. We mean that we are sinners and have to be saved. He is the Savior; we are His savee.
Quote your verses and make your claims. Since the topic is salvation and eternal life, be sure that your verses refer directly to those terms.
You are very confused
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
regarding those terms.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
Are you making up verses? The Lord does not say that in either 1 John nor John.
John 10:
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Clearly not everyone believes. Clearly not everyone is saved. No verse says that every single human being was saved to eternal life. The opinion of the Samaritans proves nothing. His death is sufficient payment for the sins of the World; but it is only efficient for the believer. God so loved the world that He gave His unique Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Even the ungodly unbeliever gets a measure of salvation in that the rain falls on the just and the unjust and when they (like you) get an opportunity to believe, a human lifetime to consider the offer. But eternal life goes only to the believer. You have no scripture saying that unbelievers receive eternal life. And no matter what objection you come up from this or that statement (which doesn't even mention "eternal life"), the fact remains for the believer:
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
Your theology seems to overlook
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
the work of Christ by His Incarnation, death and resurrection.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
It is in Whom do I believe? Whom do I trust?
My faith has found a resting place,
Not in device or creed;
I trust the everliving one,
His wounds for me shall plead;
I need no other argument;
I need no other plea;
It is enough that Jesus died;
And that He died for me.
I trust with my eternal destiny the God-Man who declared:
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
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Atwood, bro.. what is this?
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 18
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 18
IF . . . IF
but they don't; yet it gets our attention.
Don't let anything hinder entering into life, into salvation.
What is more a hindrance than human pride, the pride that insists my works must get approved; I don't need grace; I am righteous; I don't need saving by a Savior; I want validation by a judge.
Now by way of application (principles proven by other scripture), we might encourage the sinner to cut off hands & feet figuratively, that is, cut off our works. And we need to pluck out our figurative eyes which tell us "we see," "we know"; so don't quote the Scripture to me.
but they don't; yet it gets our attention.
Don't let anything hinder entering into life, into salvation.
What is more a hindrance than human pride, the pride that insists my works must get approved; I don't need grace; I am righteous; I don't need saving by a Savior; I want validation by a judge.
Now by way of application (principles proven by other scripture), we might encourage the sinner to cut off hands & feet figuratively, that is, cut off our works. And we need to pluck out our figurative eyes which tell us "we see," "we know"; so don't quote the Scripture to me.
on the Philippian jailer, you did not read far enough. Notice the same hour of the night he was baptized. Also noticed that he did not rejoice until after baptism. Why the urgency to baptize if it is not required?
The fact remains that the answer to the question of "What must I do to be saved? was "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved." Similar offers of salvation or justification are repeated over and over again in scripture, without baptism in the context.
Of course after the jailer trusted Christ as his Savior, the jailer received more teaching. We may infer that water baptism was mentioned. It is an inference from the fact that he got baptized, though there is no teaching about it or statement that water baptism brings salvation (which is never does in scripture). If you view it as something a man-to-be-saved does, it would be a work -- and it is clearly forbidden to think that works save.
To obey the Lord in many things is urgent. Just to know that He wants us to do something gives it urgency. It was urgent that he love his wife (if he had one).
Some are very lax on water baptism, which is very bad. But it is worse to make persons think that some religious ritual saves.
How do you know that he didn't rejoice before baptized? How could he not rejoice the moment he believed? You may as well argue he didn't breathe air when he trusted Christ, since it is not mentioned.
Alligator,
what hinders you from trusting the Lord Jesus as your only and sufficient Savior now, Savior to eternal life and never perishing?
As to Dear Cassian, give attention to the verses. Let them persuade you. Luther wasn't born when these were given. James does not refute them at all.
"IF . . . IF
but they don't; yet it gets our attention." -Atwood
That's your argument?
"Don't let anything hinder entering into life, into salvation.
What is more a hindrance than human pride, the pride that insists my works must get approved; I don't need grace; I am righteous; I don't need saving by a Savior; I want validation by a judge."-atwood
Thats what you got from this?
[SUP]"8 [/SUP]Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."-Matthew 18
"so don't quote the Scripture to me."- Atwood
Okay, that's the end of our conversations then.
but they don't; yet it gets our attention." -Atwood
That's your argument?
"Don't let anything hinder entering into life, into salvation.
What is more a hindrance than human pride, the pride that insists my works must get approved; I don't need grace; I am righteous; I don't need saving by a Savior; I want validation by a judge."-atwood
Thats what you got from this?
[SUP]"8 [/SUP]Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."-Matthew 18
"so don't quote the Scripture to me."- Atwood
Okay, that's the end of our conversations then.
Don't worry about what the text does NOT say; be concerned about what it does say. It says nothing about the World Trade Tower -- so what?
The text says that He will perform it; not maybe if the Philippians are good boys.
He began the good work . . . He will perform it. Or breach of contract!
And since the second part follows the first, the past beginning is guaranteed for the future -- nothing about any present tense for you to pettifog on.
he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Now Cassian, if you want this to apply to you, you need to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
The text says that He will perform it; not maybe if the Philippians are good boys.
He began the good work . . . He will perform it. Or breach of contract!
And since the second part follows the first, the past beginning is guaranteed for the future -- nothing about any present tense for you to pettifog on.
he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Now Cassian, if you want this to apply to you, you need to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior.
Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.
The topic is about being saved to eternal life. 1 Tim 4 certainly does not mention eternal life. There is indeed a daily and momentary salvation from the practice of sin in the life, which is not secure. And the Word of God is an instrument towards that end: "In his law he mediates day and night."
The topic is about being saved to eternal life. 1 Tim 4 certainly does not mention eternal life. There is indeed a daily and momentary salvation from the practice of sin in the life, which is not secure. And the Word of God is an instrument towards that end: "In his law he mediates day and night."