Self Defense - Is it wrong?

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Self Defense - Is it wrong?

  • Yes it is wrong.

    Votes: 5 9.4%
  • No it is okay.

    Votes: 29 54.7%
  • It is only okay under certain conditions.

    Votes: 18 34.0%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 1 1.9%

  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
You are making false assertions. I'll presume it's because you are ignorant and this is not deliberate for "like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked." -Proverbs 25:26

As the eminent Biblical scholar and theologian Gleason L. Archer PhD wrote in the Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties:

"How could God be called 'good' if He forbade His people to protect their wives from ravishment and strangulation by drunken marauders, or to resist invaders who have come to pick up their children and dash out their brains against the wall? No policy would give freer rein to wickedness and crime than a complete surrender of the right of self-defense on the part of the law-abiding members of society.

No more effective way of promoting the cause of Satan and the powers of hell could be devised than depriving law-abiding citizens of all right of self-defense. It is hard to imagine how any deity could be thought 'good' who would ordain such a policy of supine surrender to evil as that advocated by pacifism.

All possibility of an ordered society would be removed on the abolition of any sort of police force. No nation could retain its liberty or preserve the lives of its citizens if it were prevented from maintaining any sort of army for its defense. It is therefore incumbent on a 'good God' to include the right of self-defense as the prerogative of His people. He would not be good at all if He were to turn the world over to the horrors of unbridled cruelty perpetrated by violent and bloody criminals or the unchecked aggression of invading armies.

Not only is a proper and responsible policy of self-defense taught by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but there were occasions when God even commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations and the complete extermination of cities like Jericho (cf. the article on "Was Joshua justified in exterminating the population of Jericho?" in connection with Joshua 6:21). The rules of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20 represented a control of justice, fairness, and kindness in the use of the sword, and, as such, they truly did reflect the goodness of God."

Self-defense against evil is legitimized in scripture and natural law. Now you don't know whether Jesus ever owned a sword or not. It's possible that he did not for as God, Jesus could call down twelve legions of angels meaning that he had no need for a sword. But his disciples owned them and he never commanded Christians not to own a sword or not use it in legitimate self-defense when desirable (e.g. necessary).

In fact, and pay attention now, as Jesus was being arrested he spoke with the supernatural power of God. His voice so totally overwhelmed the soldiers that they swayed backward and fell to the ground (John 18:6). This accomplished several things but primarily it created a situation in which the soldiers were so put off by this demonstration of supernatural power that His disciples could leave the garden unharmed with their weapons in hand to use in legitimate self-defense against highway men, etc... if the need arose (and maybe it did) as Jesus was now physically separating from them to fulfill his prophesied cosmic mission at Golgotha.

What you're doing is confusing legitimate self-defense with revenge here while misrepresenting this scripture. Jesus did not tell his oppressed hearers not to resist evil. His entire ministry is at odds with such a preposterous idea. He is, rather, warning against responding to evil in kind by letting the oppressor set the terms of our opposition.

Why the right cheek? A blow by the right fist in that right-handed world would land on the left cheek of the opponent. To strike the right cheek with the fist would require using the left hand, but in that society the left hand was used only for unclean tasks. As the Dead Sea Scrolls specify, even to gesture with the left hand at Qumran carried the penalty of ten days penance and to strike someone with it was an exorbitant fine. What's being communicated here is not the threat of bodily injury but rather of insult.

The intention is not to injure but to humiliate, to put someone in his or her place. One normally did not strike a peer in this way, and if one did the fine was exorbitant in that place and time. A backhand slap was the normal way of admonishing inferiors. Masters backhanded slaves; husbands, wives; parents, children; men, women; Romans, Jews.

Of course, we don't want to start a fight to death or blood feud because someone insulted us. That; however, does not translate to Jesus ordering us to allow ourselves, our loved ones, and every innocent person on the planet to be victimized, robbed, assaulted, raped, enslaved and murdered by wicked people. Grow up. The Bible teaches the opposite.

God permits life taking in self-defense ( Exod. 22:2 ), in capital punishment ( Gen. 9:6 ), and in just war (cf. Gen. 14:14–20 ). And when there is a theocratic command to do so, as in the case of Israel and the Canaanites, its moral justification is vouchsafed by God’s sovereignty.

In the New Testameent, Jesus Himself nowhere circumvents the responsibility of the Christian to kill if necessary in the legitimate protection of his own life or family. In fact Jesus clarifies this in his Matthew 5:21 teaching has he chose a distinctive word (phoneuo) which means to murder not kill. Thayer (p. 657) states, it means "to commit murder." W.E. Vine (p. 291) states, "Pheneuo, to murder, akin tophoneus, a murderer." Etc... universal agreement on word usage.



Jesus Christ NEVER owned or used a weapon-and neither should His followers.

Here's a question.
When someone punches us on the left side of our face, Jesus Christ told us to
1. Shoot the other person.
2. Punch him or her back.
3. Fight back.
4. Run away.
5. Let him punch us on the right side of our face.
 
Jun 3, 2014
46
0
0
You are making false assertions. I'll presume it's because you are ignorant and this is not deliberate for "like a muddied spring or a polluted fountain is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked." -Proverbs 25:26

As the eminent Biblical scholar and theologian Gleason L. Archer PhD wrote in the Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties:

"How could God be called 'good' if He forbade His people to protect their wives from ravishment and strangulation by drunken marauders, or to resist invaders who have come to pick up their children and dash out their brains against the wall? No policy would give freer rein to wickedness and crime than a complete surrender of the right of self-defense on the part of the law-abiding members of society.

No more effective way of promoting the cause of Satan and the powers of hell could be devised than depriving law-abiding citizens of all right of self-defense. It is hard to imagine how any deity could be thought 'good' who would ordain such a policy of supine surrender to evil as that advocated by pacifism.

All possibility of an ordered society would be removed on the abolition of any sort of police force. No nation could retain its liberty or preserve the lives of its citizens if it were prevented from maintaining any sort of army for its defense. It is therefore incumbent on a 'good God' to include the right of self-defense as the prerogative of His people. He would not be good at all if He were to turn the world over to the horrors of unbridled cruelty perpetrated by violent and bloody criminals or the unchecked aggression of invading armies.

Not only is a proper and responsible policy of self-defense taught by Scripture from Genesis to Revelation, but there were occasions when God even commissioned His people to carry out judgment on corrupt and degenerate heathen nations and the complete extermination of cities like Jericho (cf. the article on "Was Joshua justified in exterminating the population of Jericho?" in connection with Joshua 6:21). The rules of war laid down in Deuteronomy 20 represented a control of justice, fairness, and kindness in the use of the sword, and, as such, they truly did reflect the goodness of God."

Self-defense against evil is legitimized in scripture and natural law. Now you don't know whether Jesus ever owned a sword or not. It's possible that he did not for as God, Jesus could call down twelve legions of angels meaning that he had no need for a sword. But his disciples owned them and he never commanded Christians not to own a sword or not use it in legitimate self-defense when desirable (e.g. necessary).

In fact, and pay attention now, as Jesus was being arrested he spoke with the supernatural power of God. His voice so totally overwhelmed the soldiers that they swayed backward and fell to the ground (John 18:6). This accomplished several things but primarily it created a situation in which the soldiers were so put off by this demonstration of supernatural power that His disciples could leave the garden unharmed with their weapons in hand to use in legitimate self-defense against highway men, etc... if the need arose (and maybe it did) as Jesus was now physically separating from them to fulfill his prophesied cosmic mission at Golgotha.

What you're doing is confusing legitimate self-defense with revenge here while misrepresenting this scripture. Jesus did not tell his oppressed hearers not to resist evil. His entire ministry is at odds with such a preposterous idea. He is, rather, warning against responding to evil in kind by letting the oppressor set the terms of our opposition.

Why the right cheek? A blow by the right fist in that right-handed world would land on the left cheek of the opponent. To strike the right cheek with the fist would require using the left hand, but in that society the left hand was used only for unclean tasks. As the Dead Sea Scrolls specify, even to gesture with the left hand at Qumran carried the penalty of ten days penance and to strike someone with it was an exorbitant fine. What's being communicated here is not the threat of bodily injury but rather of insult.

The intention is not to injure but to humiliate, to put someone in his or her place. One normally did not strike a peer in this way, and if one did the fine was exorbitant in that place and time. A backhand slap was the normal way of admonishing inferiors. Masters backhanded slaves; husbands, wives; parents, children; men, women; Romans, Jews.

Of course, we don't want to start a fight to death or blood feud because someone insulted us. That; however, does not translate to Jesus ordering us to allow ourselves, our loved ones, and every innocent person on the planet to be victimized, robbed, assaulted, raped, enslaved and murdered by wicked people. Grow up. The Bible teaches the opposite.

God permits life taking in self-defense ( Exod. 22:2 ), in capital punishment ( Gen. 9:6 ), and in just war (cf. Gen. 14:14–20 ). And when there is a theocratic command to do so, as in the case of Israel and the Canaanites, its moral justification is vouchsafed by God’s sovereignty.

In the New Testameent, Jesus Himself nowhere circumvents the responsibility of the Christian to kill if necessary in the legitimate protection of his own life or family. In fact Jesus clarifies this in his Matthew 5:21 teaching has he chose a distinctive word (phoneuo) which means to murder not kill. Thayer (p. 657) states, it means "to commit murder." W.E. Vine (p. 291) states, "Pheneuo, to murder, akin tophoneus, a murderer." Etc... universal agreement on word usage.
I would argue that a slap with the left hand (on the right cheek) was the premise. To slap someone with the left hand in Jesus' day would leave a mark of disdain. And Jesus is saying, 'turn the other one too'. 'Don't get offended, in fact, go one further and let someone hit you with both hands'.

God didn't forbid anybody from exacting self defence, though, neither did Jesus take up any follower who wasn't willing totally to follow him at the time when they were taken up. There's a law that says 'eye for eye', punishment for crime. That's the law. And someone who abides by the law is just and lawful.

Nobody's saying you cannot, and should not, defend yourself. From an objective standpoint, I would say it's totally fine to defend yourself, in both God's eyes and in my own. There's no God forbidding defending your children from harm or your wife from being raped or beaten or worse.

However, there is a difference between being lawful, and being righteous above and beyond it. Sure, there's no chance in hell my girlfriend is gonna get raped, I'm gonna do everything in my power to stop that. BUT, as far as my own defence goes, from a subjective, individual standpoint, if I were a truly righteous christ follower, above and beyond the call of law and duty that the pharisees or whomever else answered (as when Jesus said ,'unless you keep the law to a degree beyond the pharisees, you shall by no means see the kingdom of God), if I'm gonna be above and beyond that law, then my body is forfeit, as is my life. My body is forfeit to the same self-sacrifice and selfless interests as Jesus. My face may be slapped on both cheeks, my eye might be taken without the need for me to have an eye back.

In my individual endeavour, inspired by Jesus' endeavour, I might go beyond lawfulness and on to righteousness.

There is a difference between the two.

Nobody is saying 'don't fight back, don't defend yourself, and if you do, you'll burn'. Nobody is saying that. But to TRULY emulate Jesus, to truly make a conscious decision to take steps beyond law? Then a person who realizes the methodology and cognition behind Jesus' statements, and understands, and truly wills to do it, wouldn't fight back.

He never fought back.
 
Last edited:
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
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people who are quick to exact violence on soft hearted individuals who offer respect and want only peace are in need of a new understanding.

[h=3]Proverbs 20:30[/h]Contemporary English Version (CEV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]A severe beating can knock all
of the evil out of you!
lol
 
P

prodigal

Guest
1 Corinthians 13:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Matthew 5:39
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.
OR




colt_peacemaker.jpg


2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

ps. my vote was,

  • It is only okay under certain conditions.


    1438.89%
  • ,,,now. what conditions,,, there's a whole new can of worms. blessings all
 
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C

chubbena

Guest
Self defense is like buying life insurance - both a result of not having enough faith in God the protector - and I'm a man of little faith.
I like the old days and His old ways when He protected and elevated those who abode in Him. The Israelites could leave their wives and children home alone while they travelled to Jerusalem to worship in the feast days because He promised safety to their family.
 
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
22
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Has God ever used you to feed someone? why wouldn't He use me to protect someone?
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Tell it to the victims of the night stalker and the families of every serial murder victim. They tortured and murdered genuine Christians and those who were non-Christians with equal relish. Well, until their demonic activities were either stopped by a citizen who killed them in self defense or they were eventually tracked down and arrested by law enforcement.

Perhaps we should send them over to live with you to explain to them how you're physically invulnerable to their assault because of faith and how you like to condemn everyone that follows scripture's admonition to be prepared because in your false understanding, anyone that ever prepares for anything obviously doesn't have any faith.

You're obviously wrong and apparently too ignorant to recognize it. Scripture commands us to be prepared and to be wise. It doesn't tell us not to put gas in our car because to do so is a lack of faith in God who will magically fill up our gas tanks for us. It doesn't tell us to play on freeways because it's OK, we're magically protected and no automobile will ever strike us if we do. I can think up a million of these fallacious examples using your false juvenile fallacious reasoning.

What it does tell us is to be prepared and exercise wisdom. Maybe you're a liberal welfare recipient who is used to everyone doing everything for you so can't imagine having to actually do anything for yourself and that's why you condemn people who choose to be prepared and wise in this world as God instructed. Here's a verse: "Go to the ant, O sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise. Without having any chief, officer, or ruler, she prepares her bread in summer and gathers her food in harvest. -Proverbs 6:6-8.


Self defense is like buying life insurance - both a result of not having enough faith in God the protector - and I'm a man of little faith.
I like the old days and His old ways when He protected and elevated those who abode in Him. The Israelites could leave their wives and children home alone while they travelled to Jerusalem to worship in the feast days because He promised safety to their family.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
766
113
39
Australia
If someone broke into my home to harm my wife and child, im confident to say I wouldnt be on my knees praying for God to protect them but I would be seeking to apprehend and fight if necessary. That may not sound ultra spiritual and ultra faithful but Im just being real.
 
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
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If I had children I would teach them how to respond to emergencies in the night. Including if they hear the sound of glass breaking or large bangs to hide under their bed until myself their mother or the police come for them. The last thing I need is for my children to step into the hallway at 2 in the morning between me and intruders.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
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Self defense is like buying life insurance - both a result of not having enough faith in God the protector - and I'm a man of little faith.
I like the old days and His old ways when He protected and elevated those who abode in Him. The Israelites could leave their wives and children home alone while they travelled to Jerusalem to worship in the feast days because He promised safety to their family.
The result from seeing other tribes being killed is that they became accustom to it like it was no harm has been done. If we all has grown up watching John Wayne's movies, we will think that it is okay to pop someone in the mouth and then everything be all settled. We cannot accept the ways of the serpent to be normal anymore, but now we must accept Christ ways as being normal.

 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
[Video] TX Dad Shoots and Kills 2 of 3 Armed Home Invaders, Saves His Wife & Four Children

^ This is how you do it.

One story that breaks my heart is the woman who actually was able to get a shotgun drawn on serial murderer Richard Ramirez but her husband had removed the ammo from it over the weekend and when she pulled the trigger it dry fired. Richard took her eyes as a souvenir.


If someone broke into my home to harm my wife and child, im confident to say I wouldnt be on my knees praying for God to protect them but I would be seeking to apprehend and fight if necessary. That may not sound ultra spiritual and ultra faithful but Im just being real.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
766
113
39
Australia
[Video] TX Dad Shoots and Kills 2 of 3 Armed Home Invaders, Saves His Wife & Four Children

^ This is how you do it.

One story that breaks my heart is the woman who actually was able to get a shotgun drawn on serial murderer Richard Ramirez but her husband had removed the ammo from it over the weekend and when she pulled the trigger it dry fired. Richard took her eyes as a souvenir.
lol well, I dont own a gun so no instant justice over here. I wouldn't want to kill the intruder/s though if there were intruderS it would level it out a bit. But an intruder, I would fight and continue to fight even to death.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
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If someone broke into my home to harm my wife and child, im confident to say I wouldnt be on my knees praying for God to protect them but I would be seeking to apprehend and fight if necessary. That may not sound ultra spiritual and ultra faithful but Im just being real.
Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Proverb 6:There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

Now we know why Jesus had said that He came to bring not peace, but a sword; that He will be causing families to go against each other like what he has done to David's family. We should never justify wrong, because that is going against the Holy Ones. We should never prepare ourselves when a predicament like that arise, but we should pray constantly that we never wind up in that type of predicament and or any other ones that arises. But if a person prepared themselves for battle, is a person that is looking forward for it, and that person will wind up fighting the unexpected as this verse says:

Matthew 10:36
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

Everyone should away put God's word first before anything or treat it with respect, that if they love Him.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
I don't believe self defense is wrong, but what I do believe is the measure you use in self defense.

I know the new testament says to turn the other cheek, and to me that along with other scriptures shows that you are not to retaliate against some one because it well be driven by anger, and hatred and can lead to going to far. Do not repay evil with evil.

Can you protect yourself from being hurt worse, or even yet try to run away or scream for help ?......Yes.
 
Nov 30, 2012
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And Christ's admonition to Cephus? That was a comment on self defense and fighting to save others. For if we live by the sword, so shall we die by the sword. Now, I choose pacifism without appeasement. Meaning I am willing to die without physically fighting, but I recognize that the world needs those willing to fight and those unwilling to, because peace is won through those willing, but it is kept and war is ended through those unwilling to fight.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
I disagree with your false assertion. Jesus was fulfilling a very specific mission which was to become "the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2) and the period in which He allowed Himself to be arrested, tried, and executed by the Roman and Jewish authorities was to fulfill a once in human history event.

Jesus fulfilling a specific mission to provide salvation for humanity does not translate to Jesus being a pacifist who stood around while innocent (or even guilty) people were murdered in his presence.

Just the opposite, He used His supernatural power to deliver his disciples from the soldiers in the garden. He involved Himself in the affairs of other people to save them from violent death. On more than one occasion Jesus used His power in some way to simply walk through the midst of angry crowds intent on murdering Him.

That's great if you can exercise supernatural power in that way for it supersedes the need for you to arm yourself. However, if you can't exercise supernatural power in that way, then you're going to need some quality firepower... lol.

It may seem "christian" to someone like yourself to cede your life and liberty and the lives and liberties of everyone else over to criminals, serial murderers, despots, and totalitarian governments but it's, of course, reprehensible if you can, like Jesus did in every case except one in which case he stood down so as to fulfill His ultimate purpose of propitiation for humanity, stop it from happening.

It may seem "christian" to someone like yourself to watch anarchy and evil increase in the world because the righteous have become as deceived as yourself and won't put forth the effort and sacrifice necessary to rebuff it even though the Bible condemns such apathy toward evil and Jesus showed by His example that He stood squarely against evil even to the point of whipping moneychangers out of the temple.

Jesus "fought back" consistently against evil and He showed that He would righteously exercise physical force to accomplish it in at least one case.

Anyone that truly wants to emulate Jesus won't be like you... a thumb sucking pacifist who stands by while evil people destroy the innocent.


But to TRULY emulate Jesus, to truly make a conscious decision to take steps beyond law? Then a person who realizes the methodology and cognition behind Jesus' statements, and understands, and truly wills to do it, wouldn't fight back. He never fought back.
 

ninasbg

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2014
24
4
3
I believe self defense is not wrong.We have to protect ourselves and our family.I have children to live for.God wants us to be wise.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,087
8,749
113
Jesus said "Turn the other cheek", Jesus told Peter to put away the sword.

In the new testament the Holy Spirit is our defender. Show me in the new testament where violence against others is taught whether defensively or offensively? Is God incapable of protecting us and keeping us safe from violent attack?

It is the Holy Spirit who is more than able to protect us, if God is for us who can be against us?

This justification of war and self defense is carnal and is not of the Spirit. St Augustine was the first to justify war in the Church in the early 5th century. In 380ad christianity became the only legal religion of the Roman Emipre and christians persecuted those who denied the faith, killing many just as they were once killed by the state, now christians used the state to kill others. This violence against others is not of the Spirit, but is of the flesh. Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ never once told us to persecute and kill those who refuse to receive the gospel. This justification of violence against others has continued in the Church to this day and is a false witness of who Jesus Christ is. The world is longing for a loving and forgiving God and violent christians reveal an evil and cruel god to this world.

Just a thought.
So your'e telling me if a thief and murderer broke into your home to kill you and your family you wouldn't even call the police?

Reminds me of the story of the guy who was sitting on his roof while flood waters rose and a person in a boat came by and offered to rescue him and he answered "No thanks the Lord will save me" Then a police helicopter hovered and dropped a rope. The man answered and said "No thanks the Lord will save me" The flood waters rose and he drowned. After death he asked God why He didn't save him. God said, "well I sent a boat and a helicopter and you refused my help".

It also reminds me of the parents who refuse life-saving treatments for their kids on grounds that God will heal them. Then they die and the parents say"I guess our faith wasn't strong enough" and they might kill another child in this way.

We should defend ourselves and others just enough to stop the attack.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
27
0
I don't believe self defense is wrong, but what I do believe is the measure you use in self defense.

I know the new testament says to turn the other cheek, and to me that along with other scriptures shows that you are not to retaliate against some one because it well be driven by anger, and hatred and can lead to going to far. Do not repay evil with evil.

Can you protect yourself from being hurt worse, or even yet try to run away or scream for help ?......Yes.
[video=youtube_share;h4PqLKWuwyU]http://youtu.be/h4PqLKWuwyU[/video]