Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!
- Thread starter LEPIDUS
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
One of the biggest problems that leads to error concerning the timing of the body presence of Christ and our gathering together unto him is the simple fact that most have no clue that TRIBULATION DOES NOT MEAN WRATH and WHO IS APPOINTED UNTO THE TWO LISTED......
Tribulation=thilipsis<---persecution, pressure, putting the squeeze on<----SAVED appointed unto this
Wrath=ORGE<---Fiery indignation of GOD<------LOST appointed to this
Daniel, Revelation BOTH TEACH WAR MADE ON THE SAINTS and a WEARING OUT OF THE SAINTS and OVERCOMING THE SAINTS BY THE BEAST/LITTLE HORN A.K.A ANTI-CHRIST FOR 3.5 year or 42 MONTHS=GREAT TRIBULATION
Tribulation=thilipsis<---persecution, pressure, putting the squeeze on<----SAVED appointed unto this
Wrath=ORGE<---Fiery indignation of GOD<------LOST appointed to this
Daniel, Revelation BOTH TEACH WAR MADE ON THE SAINTS and a WEARING OUT OF THE SAINTS and OVERCOMING THE SAINTS BY THE BEAST/LITTLE HORN A.K.A ANTI-CHRIST FOR 3.5 year or 42 MONTHS=GREAT TRIBULATION
L
PlainWord...
Your statement about the church being "established in part to make the Jews jealous and because the Jews failed to recognize their Messiah" is incorrect and not biblical.
How could the establishing of the Church make the Jews jealous when the majority of the first century church was composed of born again JEWS? In Romans 11:11, we have the answer of why the Jews were "provoked to jealousy":
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The "them" are the Jews. It was the salvation of the Gentiles which "provoked" the Jews to jealousy, not the establishment of the Church.
Because the Jews rejected Christ (it actually was the Jewish leaders of Israel that rejected Christ...not all Jews rejected Christ because we see that the majority of the first century church, which began at Pentecost, was composed of Jews), God set the nation of Israel aside and postponed the Kingdom. The Jews rejection of Christ opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles. The Church was a "mystery" in the OT, but that "mystery" was revealed to the NT apostles and prophets...and the apostle Paul was made a minister of this revelation, by the grace of God
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The Church age/dispensation is parenthetical....it was not known to the OT saints. That is why you won't find the Rapture in the OT.
One thing I missed in my previous post....why a post tribulation rapture would be a non-event.
First of all, in Revelation 13:7-8, the antichrist will "wage war with the saints and overcome them". Therefore, who will be left to Rapture after the Great Tribulation if those "saints" are the Church?
Secondly, in Matthew 16:18 it says "the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church"
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Also, if those "saints" are indeed the Church, how is it that the antichrist will overcome those "saints"....when Jesus plainly states that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the Church)? Something to think about? Did Jesus lie?
Now I'm done!
Maranatha!
Your statement about the church being "established in part to make the Jews jealous and because the Jews failed to recognize their Messiah" is incorrect and not biblical.
How could the establishing of the Church make the Jews jealous when the majority of the first century church was composed of born again JEWS? In Romans 11:11, we have the answer of why the Jews were "provoked to jealousy":
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
The "them" are the Jews. It was the salvation of the Gentiles which "provoked" the Jews to jealousy, not the establishment of the Church.
Because the Jews rejected Christ (it actually was the Jewish leaders of Israel that rejected Christ...not all Jews rejected Christ because we see that the majority of the first century church, which began at Pentecost, was composed of Jews), God set the nation of Israel aside and postponed the Kingdom. The Jews rejection of Christ opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles. The Church was a "mystery" in the OT, but that "mystery" was revealed to the NT apostles and prophets...and the apostle Paul was made a minister of this revelation, by the grace of God
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Ephesians 3:7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
The Church age/dispensation is parenthetical....it was not known to the OT saints. That is why you won't find the Rapture in the OT.
One thing I missed in my previous post....why a post tribulation rapture would be a non-event.
First of all, in Revelation 13:7-8, the antichrist will "wage war with the saints and overcome them". Therefore, who will be left to Rapture after the Great Tribulation if those "saints" are the Church?
Secondly, in Matthew 16:18 it says "the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church"
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Also, if those "saints" are indeed the Church, how is it that the antichrist will overcome those "saints"....when Jesus plainly states that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the Church)? Something to think about? Did Jesus lie?
Now I'm done!
Maranatha!
We can gauge the importance of Christ’s Second Coming by contrasting the number of times it is mentioned in the Scriptures alongside other teachings:
1) The “new Birth” (conversion) is mentioned 9 times in the New Testament.
2) Baptism is mentioned 20 times
3) Repentance is metioned 70 times
4) The Second Coming is mentioned 380 times in the New Testament alone!
The doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ IS the most important...period!
And it is NOT a mystery, for the Scriptures are not so badly inspired and written by the Holy Spirit that they cannot be understood by ANY/EVERY Christian! Even The Revelation of Jesus Christ the Lord wants and expects ordinary Christians to understand!
The key to understanding last day (ie the Second Coming and all things pertaining to it) prophetic truth is LOTS OF PRAYER and study of those prophetic truths with a desire to do the will of God. John 7v17
Yahweh Shalom
1) The “new Birth” (conversion) is mentioned 9 times in the New Testament.
2) Baptism is mentioned 20 times
3) Repentance is metioned 70 times
4) The Second Coming is mentioned 380 times in the New Testament alone!
The doctrine of the Second Coming of Christ IS the most important...period!
And it is NOT a mystery, for the Scriptures are not so badly inspired and written by the Holy Spirit that they cannot be understood by ANY/EVERY Christian! Even The Revelation of Jesus Christ the Lord wants and expects ordinary Christians to understand!
The key to understanding last day (ie the Second Coming and all things pertaining to it) prophetic truth is LOTS OF PRAYER and study of those prophetic truths with a desire to do the will of God. John 7v17
Yahweh Shalom
No offence LT, but I would totally disagree with your assessment here based upon the following facts. The second coming (parousia) was given by God in his word and the answer is clear when studied without bias to the current prevelant teaching concerning the coming of Jesus...
Of the 216 chapters of the New Testament, there are 318 references to the Second Coming of Jesus and this truth is mentioned in 23 of the 27 books of the N.T.
The importance of the coming kingdom of Christ is encountered in the fact that for every One prophecy concerning his first coming there are 8 that deal with his second coming.
Of the 216 chapters of the New Testament, there are 318 references to the Second Coming of Jesus and this truth is mentioned in 23 of the 27 books of the N.T.
The importance of the coming kingdom of Christ is encountered in the fact that for every One prophecy concerning his first coming there are 8 that deal with his second coming.
L
Did the Holy Spirit indwell the OT saints?
Since Pentecost, the Holy Spirit indwells every person who trusts Christ.
The "saints" in the book of Revelation are not the Church age "saints".
The Holy Spirit is God and therefore is omnipresent. Tell me, Stephen, to where does the Holy Spirit "move aside" in order for the spirit of Antichrist [1 John 4:3] to work?
Where in Scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit will indwell the tribulation saints?
Where in Scripture does it say that the tribulation saints are "born again" in the same manner as believers are "born again" during this dispensation of grace?
In Revelation 7:3 it says that the angels ascending from the east "sealed"the "servants of God" (the 144,000) in their foreheads...but nowhere does it say that the 144,000 were "sealed" with the Holy Spirit.
Please show the Scripture that describes how the Holy Spirit will work during the 7 year tribulation period.
No, I am not jesting!
Since Pentecost, the Holy Spirit indwells every person who trusts Christ.
The "saints" in the book of Revelation are not the Church age "saints".
The Holy Spirit is God and therefore is omnipresent. Tell me, Stephen, to where does the Holy Spirit "move aside" in order for the spirit of Antichrist [1 John 4:3] to work?
Where in Scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit will indwell the tribulation saints?
Where in Scripture does it say that the tribulation saints are "born again" in the same manner as believers are "born again" during this dispensation of grace?
In Revelation 7:3 it says that the angels ascending from the east "sealed"the "servants of God" (the 144,000) in their foreheads...but nowhere does it say that the 144,000 were "sealed" with the Holy Spirit.
Please show the Scripture that describes how the Holy Spirit will work during the 7 year tribulation period.
No, I am not jesting!
LT, while we are all pickin on ya 
, just a friendly reminder...
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
(Rev 1:3)
...but I'm still trying to sort all this out too as I have left that ground fallow for 35 years and am now trying to play 'catch up'.
, just a friendly reminder...Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
(Rev 1:3)
...but I'm still trying to sort all this out too as I have left that ground fallow for 35 years and am now trying to play 'catch up'.
You didn't show me any plain scriptures to prove yer point.....just questions to put the ball back in my court......didn't work.
OT saints have NOTHING to do with it....... they were not made the Sons of God in their covenant. But we were. Tribulation saints are Sons of God also, because they are also under the new covenant whereby we have the earnest of the Spirit in us as a down-payment of the entire inheritance to come.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV) [SUP]21 [/SUP]Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [SUP]22 [/SUP]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:9-14 (KJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: [SUP]10 [/SUP]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: [SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
NO PLACE does it say the Tribulation saints are saved a different way.....that is pure speculation.
Here's my plain scriptures that show all saints have the Holy Spirit within them.... where's yours?
OT saints have NOTHING to do with it....... they were not made the Sons of God in their covenant. But we were. Tribulation saints are Sons of God also, because they are also under the new covenant whereby we have the earnest of the Spirit in us as a down-payment of the entire inheritance to come.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV) [SUP]21 [/SUP]Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; [SUP]22 [/SUP]Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2 Corinthians 5:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:9-14 (KJV) [SUP]9 [/SUP]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: [SUP]10 [/SUP]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: [SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: [SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
NO PLACE does it say the Tribulation saints are saved a different way.....that is pure speculation.
Here's my plain scriptures that show all saints have the Holy Spirit within them.... where's yours?
L
Where did I say that I was trying to make something "work"? I asked you those questions for a purpose and all you did was accuse me of putting the ball back in your court. My purpose in asking you those questions was to find out exactly where you stand about the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation.
Are you saying that the OT saints are not saved because they are not made Sons of God in their covenant? Which covenant? “We were” what? You are not very clear. Are you saying that the Church is Israel and the New Covenant is fulfilled in the Church? You are unclear here.
The Scriptures you posted (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:9-14) do not answer my question about the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation. I am not looking for Scriptures for the “sealing/indwelling of the Holy Spirit during the Church age.
Again, do you believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation will remain the same as it is during this present dispensation of the Church/grace? If your answer is yes, please give Scripture reference for this belief.
I didn’t say that the Tribulation saints (or any “saint”) was saved in a different way. Everyone is saved by grace through faith in all dispensations. The "indwelling and sealing" of the Holy Spirit during this present dispensation of the Church is UNIQUE to the Church age. What I'm trying to explain is that the MINISTRY of the Holy Spirit will function differently during the Tribulation.
The Scriptures you provided do not answer my question about the Tribulation saints. The Church saints are not the Tribulation saints. These are two different groups of people.
Are you saying that the OT saints are not saved because they are not made Sons of God in their covenant? Which covenant? “We were” what? You are not very clear. Are you saying that the Church is Israel and the New Covenant is fulfilled in the Church? You are unclear here.
The Scriptures you posted (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:9-14) do not answer my question about the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation. I am not looking for Scriptures for the “sealing/indwelling of the Holy Spirit during the Church age.
Again, do you believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation will remain the same as it is during this present dispensation of the Church/grace? If your answer is yes, please give Scripture reference for this belief.
I didn’t say that the Tribulation saints (or any “saint”) was saved in a different way. Everyone is saved by grace through faith in all dispensations. The "indwelling and sealing" of the Holy Spirit during this present dispensation of the Church is UNIQUE to the Church age. What I'm trying to explain is that the MINISTRY of the Holy Spirit will function differently during the Tribulation.
The Scriptures you provided do not answer my question about the Tribulation saints. The Church saints are not the Tribulation saints. These are two different groups of people.
Last edited by a moderator:
My Dear Linda,
You love to mince words, don't you. Just who did Paul write Romans too, the Gentiles or the Gentile Church in Rome?
Here is a snippet from Biblestudyguide.com.
Recipients
The original recipients of the letter were the people of the church at Rome (1:7), who were predominantly Gentile.
I rest my case.
Let me try to again help you Linda. You are correct, the Beast will wage war against the Saints and overcome them. Who are the Saints Linda? The church, correct??? This is what I have been trying to warn you about. The Gates of Hell WILL NOT PREVAIL against the End Times Church. Of course we have 2,000 years of church history just as the Jews had 2,000 years of being God's Chosen before the Gentiles began to be grafted in. Most of the Church goes to heaven but not by rapture I'm afraid...
Those who fall for the deception of Satan where he convinces you that Christ comes first will most likely be spiritually defeated. This is where the Great Multitude comes from (Rev 7). The GM are hungry and thirsty - meaning they didn't have the knowledge and truth to avoid Satan's deceptions and thus they were deceived into worshiping Satan thinking he was Jesus come to rapture them away. The vast majority of those who believe Christ comes first will be deceived and killed. But, they do not go to hell Linda. I have NEVER taught that. Clearly they are in heaven. The GM are ashamed having been deceived. They need to wash their robes in the Blood of the Lamb to make them clean. Lastly, the GM are crying because of their shame.
You need to understand that the ELECT are the 144,000. They are sealed on the forehead with the truth and knowledge of God. They don't get some stupid tattoo. The 144K are contrasted with the GM. You have a group who know the truth and are not deceived then you have a group who have allowed the Traditions of Men to creep in and make the Word bitter (WORMWOOD).
I need to highlight certain words in blue so you can see clearly that Isaiah and John are both comparing and contrasting the same two groups of Christians on earth DURING the Great Tribulation. But fear not, you will not lose your salvation as God will forgive those Christians who are deceived into worshiping Satan. He will restore them and wipe the tears from their eyes - However it will cost the life of those deceived.
Isa 65:
12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight." 13 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed; 14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit. 17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
John knew OT scripture, thus he knew who the Great Multitude the elder was talking about and he sees exactly what Isaiah saw. The below are the defeated Saints. They are the ones killed in one massive event - The Hour of Trial (Rev 3:10), the Evil Day (Eph 6:13), the Great Deception Jesus discusses (Mat 24:23-26).
Rev 7:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun (SON) shall not strike them, nor any heat (SHAME); 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear (THEY WERE CRYING) from their eyes."
So to summarize, Satan planted the Pre-Trib doctrine in the church starting back in 1830 and the cancer has been growing ever since. There is no way Satan can deceive believers if they stay true to the Word and understand that Satan comes first as Jesus, Paul and John have clearly taught. Satan comes with his multitude of demons which the Saints mistakenly think are Angels from God come to Rapture them when really they come to deceive and to slaughter those who believed the lie.
After most Christians are killed very early on into the Great Tribulation (Right after the Abomination of Desolation appears), then the world having seen the "Rapture" will come to worship the Beast and take his mark thinking that is the way to salvation. There are two harvests Linda - the first is the remnant who remain Rev 14:15 and the second are the wicked who are slain at Christ's coming, Rev 14:19.
There will only be a remnant of believers left, the 144K who cannot be touched by Satan and the remnant of Saints who were not deceived. It is this remnant of Saints not deceived who are persecuted, tracked down with many killed. Thus they are greatly looking forward to Christ's return and a stop to the tribulation.
You love to mince words, don't you. Just who did Paul write Romans too, the Gentiles or the Gentile Church in Rome?
Here is a snippet from Biblestudyguide.com.
Recipients
The original recipients of the letter were the people of the church at Rome (1:7), who were predominantly Gentile.
I rest my case.
Let me try to again help you Linda. You are correct, the Beast will wage war against the Saints and overcome them. Who are the Saints Linda? The church, correct??? This is what I have been trying to warn you about. The Gates of Hell WILL NOT PREVAIL against the End Times Church. Of course we have 2,000 years of church history just as the Jews had 2,000 years of being God's Chosen before the Gentiles began to be grafted in. Most of the Church goes to heaven but not by rapture I'm afraid...
Those who fall for the deception of Satan where he convinces you that Christ comes first will most likely be spiritually defeated. This is where the Great Multitude comes from (Rev 7). The GM are hungry and thirsty - meaning they didn't have the knowledge and truth to avoid Satan's deceptions and thus they were deceived into worshiping Satan thinking he was Jesus come to rapture them away. The vast majority of those who believe Christ comes first will be deceived and killed. But, they do not go to hell Linda. I have NEVER taught that. Clearly they are in heaven. The GM are ashamed having been deceived. They need to wash their robes in the Blood of the Lamb to make them clean. Lastly, the GM are crying because of their shame.
You need to understand that the ELECT are the 144,000. They are sealed on the forehead with the truth and knowledge of God. They don't get some stupid tattoo. The 144K are contrasted with the GM. You have a group who know the truth and are not deceived then you have a group who have allowed the Traditions of Men to creep in and make the Word bitter (WORMWOOD).
I need to highlight certain words in blue so you can see clearly that Isaiah and John are both comparing and contrasting the same two groups of Christians on earth DURING the Great Tribulation. But fear not, you will not lose your salvation as God will forgive those Christians who are deceived into worshiping Satan. He will restore them and wipe the tears from their eyes - However it will cost the life of those deceived.
Isa 65:
12 Therefore I will number you for the sword, And you shall all bow down to the slaughter; Because, when I called, you did not answer; When I spoke, you did not hear, But did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight." 13 Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Behold, My servants shall eat, But you shall be hungry; Behold, My servants shall drink, But you shall be thirsty; Behold, My servants shall rejoice, But you shall be ashamed; 14 Behold, My servants shall sing for joy of heart, But you shall cry for sorrow of heart, And wail for grief of spirit. 17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.
John knew OT scripture, thus he knew who the Great Multitude the elder was talking about and he sees exactly what Isaiah saw. The below are the defeated Saints. They are the ones killed in one massive event - The Hour of Trial (Rev 3:10), the Evil Day (Eph 6:13), the Great Deception Jesus discusses (Mat 24:23-26).
Rev 7:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun (SON) shall not strike them, nor any heat (SHAME); 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear (THEY WERE CRYING) from their eyes."
So to summarize, Satan planted the Pre-Trib doctrine in the church starting back in 1830 and the cancer has been growing ever since. There is no way Satan can deceive believers if they stay true to the Word and understand that Satan comes first as Jesus, Paul and John have clearly taught. Satan comes with his multitude of demons which the Saints mistakenly think are Angels from God come to Rapture them when really they come to deceive and to slaughter those who believed the lie.
After most Christians are killed very early on into the Great Tribulation (Right after the Abomination of Desolation appears), then the world having seen the "Rapture" will come to worship the Beast and take his mark thinking that is the way to salvation. There are two harvests Linda - the first is the remnant who remain Rev 14:15 and the second are the wicked who are slain at Christ's coming, Rev 14:19.
There will only be a remnant of believers left, the 144K who cannot be touched by Satan and the remnant of Saints who were not deceived. It is this remnant of Saints not deceived who are persecuted, tracked down with many killed. Thus they are greatly looking forward to Christ's return and a stop to the tribulation.
Last edited:
To all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ:
I beg you to stay true to the Word and not listen to the Traditions of Men (Pre-Trib Rapture). Christ was specifically asked by His disciples - His best friends - the Fathers of His Church - to be told the signs of the end. We have 3 accounts of Jesus lesson. God is not the author of confusion. Thus we are told clearly when Christ will return and the events that lead up to it. I want everyone to see the question that was posed. Here is the million dollar question.
Mat 24:
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Pay close attention to Jesus' answer. The very first words out of His mouth were warnings NOT TO BE DECEIVED. Why?? Because many will be deceived.
Mark 13:
5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
It should be clear that NOT BEING DECEIVED is the KEY FOCAL POINT in Christ's lesson. If Christ were to return before AntiChrist there would be no need for the warning.
Christ then immediately jumps to the times before the end and discusses World War I, WWII, then all the small so-called wars (Rumors of Wars) between WWII and the coming nuclear WWIII. Christ then discusses the various earthquakes that we have been seeing and the famines...
Christ then gives a HUGE sign of the end.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
Where are we in this? This from the official site of Wycliffe:
2025
Wycliffe's goal for having a language project started in every heart language still needing one around the world.
E sign of the end.Of course we already have satellite TV evangelism and internet reaching the World so perhaps this big event Christ discusses is already fulfilled.
Jesus then discusses some pretty severe persecution and Tribulation that His Believers will be enduring leading up to the AntiChrist. The below verses are strong evidence that nowhere in the Bible are we taught that the End Time's Church is to escape Tribulation when we've seen 2,000 years of promised tribulation for the church and Christ's own Words telling us that His church - which many consider the Body of Christ - being persecuted right up to the end.
9 But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.
11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
So leading up to the appearance of the Abomination, the Church is under severe persecution!! Where is the rapture? It is so clear from the context; there is no sparing the Church from tribulation. Now we have the Abomination shown and Christ has not breathed one word of any so-called Rapture!!!! In fact, Christ is telling us we the church are here being persecuted!!!! Christ never reverses this doctrine of Tribulation and persecution of the Church and believers. Now hear comes the deception.
14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
The above is where the Great Rapture deception takes place. The below verse is key.
17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
This verse 17 has nothing to do with pregnant women. There is no mention of the word "women" or "mother." This is a spiritual pregnancy Christ is discussing here. Pregnant and nursing Satan's lies. Real Babies are gifts from God, they are NEVER a curse. John uses the same analogy to describe the 144,000 as virgins. Throughout the Bible this symbolism of Harlotry is used when describing those who are following false Christs and false doctrines. I firmly believe this passage deals with those who are not only believing (pregnant) with Satan's Rapture doctrine but also those nursing (feeding or preaching) it. Why? Because Satan has you deceived. So, Woe to those who have been deceived.
Now we are into the Great Tribulation. God's chosen Elect are still on earth. Christ gives the below lesson.
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it.
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
We see God has to shorten Satan's Great Tribulation which is AKA the heavy persecution of Believers. Christ doesn't say a word about His Wrath!! He doesn't utter a sound about any mountains being thrown into the sea or blood and fire being cast to earth or wormwood making waters bitter, or sun being struck. The Great Tribulation is ALL ABOUT SATAN's DECEPTION. THUS THE CHURCH HAS TO BE HERE. There can be no deception if nobody but unbelievers are here as they are already by definition deceived.
Now comes the key verse that blows the Pre-Trib doctrine completely out of the water.
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
Christ has told us ALL THINGS. He didn't stutter. He didn't leave anything out. An earlier rapture return would have been the biggest and most visible sign of the end times that the disciples specifically asked about. Yet, Christ doesn't utter a word about any other return except this one:
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Thus the timing is clear - it is immediately after the Tribulation. If there was an additional rapture return we would have been clearly taught and not contrived from multiple disjointed verses.
[h=4]1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV[/h] For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
I beg you to stay true to the Word and not listen to the Traditions of Men (Pre-Trib Rapture). Christ was specifically asked by His disciples - His best friends - the Fathers of His Church - to be told the signs of the end. We have 3 accounts of Jesus lesson. God is not the author of confusion. Thus we are told clearly when Christ will return and the events that lead up to it. I want everyone to see the question that was posed. Here is the million dollar question.
Mat 24:
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Pay close attention to Jesus' answer. The very first words out of His mouth were warnings NOT TO BE DECEIVED. Why?? Because many will be deceived.
Mark 13:
5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
It should be clear that NOT BEING DECEIVED is the KEY FOCAL POINT in Christ's lesson. If Christ were to return before AntiChrist there would be no need for the warning.
Christ then immediately jumps to the times before the end and discusses World War I, WWII, then all the small so-called wars (Rumors of Wars) between WWII and the coming nuclear WWIII. Christ then discusses the various earthquakes that we have been seeing and the famines...
Christ then gives a HUGE sign of the end.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
Where are we in this? This from the official site of Wycliffe:
2025
Wycliffe's goal for having a language project started in every heart language still needing one around the world.
E sign of the end.Of course we already have satellite TV evangelism and internet reaching the World so perhaps this big event Christ discusses is already fulfilled.
Jesus then discusses some pretty severe persecution and Tribulation that His Believers will be enduring leading up to the AntiChrist. The below verses are strong evidence that nowhere in the Bible are we taught that the End Time's Church is to escape Tribulation when we've seen 2,000 years of promised tribulation for the church and Christ's own Words telling us that His church - which many consider the Body of Christ - being persecuted right up to the end.
9 But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.
11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
So leading up to the appearance of the Abomination, the Church is under severe persecution!! Where is the rapture? It is so clear from the context; there is no sparing the Church from tribulation. Now we have the Abomination shown and Christ has not breathed one word of any so-called Rapture!!!! In fact, Christ is telling us we the church are here being persecuted!!!! Christ never reverses this doctrine of Tribulation and persecution of the Church and believers. Now hear comes the deception.
14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
The above is where the Great Rapture deception takes place. The below verse is key.
17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
This verse 17 has nothing to do with pregnant women. There is no mention of the word "women" or "mother." This is a spiritual pregnancy Christ is discussing here. Pregnant and nursing Satan's lies. Real Babies are gifts from God, they are NEVER a curse. John uses the same analogy to describe the 144,000 as virgins. Throughout the Bible this symbolism of Harlotry is used when describing those who are following false Christs and false doctrines. I firmly believe this passage deals with those who are not only believing (pregnant) with Satan's Rapture doctrine but also those nursing (feeding or preaching) it. Why? Because Satan has you deceived. So, Woe to those who have been deceived.
Now we are into the Great Tribulation. God's chosen Elect are still on earth. Christ gives the below lesson.
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it.
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
We see God has to shorten Satan's Great Tribulation which is AKA the heavy persecution of Believers. Christ doesn't say a word about His Wrath!! He doesn't utter a sound about any mountains being thrown into the sea or blood and fire being cast to earth or wormwood making waters bitter, or sun being struck. The Great Tribulation is ALL ABOUT SATAN's DECEPTION. THUS THE CHURCH HAS TO BE HERE. There can be no deception if nobody but unbelievers are here as they are already by definition deceived.
Now comes the key verse that blows the Pre-Trib doctrine completely out of the water.
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
Christ has told us ALL THINGS. He didn't stutter. He didn't leave anything out. An earlier rapture return would have been the biggest and most visible sign of the end times that the disciples specifically asked about. Yet, Christ doesn't utter a word about any other return except this one:
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Thus the timing is clear - it is immediately after the Tribulation. If there was an additional rapture return we would have been clearly taught and not contrived from multiple disjointed verses.
[h=4]1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV[/h] For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
B
Linda called you out perfectly because you have a really bad habit of manipulating the Scriptures to your advantage. For example, you will list the books, chapters & verses to get your point across and to confuse by eliminating the books & chapter and only giving verses on others. I caught onto your tactics long time ago. A very unchristian-like move. Before this reply I stop reading your posts ... and I am sure many others have.
There will be a resurrection of the saints as they will go to heaven and receive their glorified bodies and come back with Christ as Christ fights the world at the battle of Armageddon.
The Bible says that the saints will not be united with Christ until the man of sin appears to deceive the world.
That is because God is love and God will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him.
As long as the world can repent of their sins God will not take His children to be with Him.
When they take the mark of the beast they cannot repent of their sins anymore and God can then take His children and put the world down.
God will allow the world to have their way for 7 years because God will allow all people that do not love God to follow the beast kingdom and take the mark so He can continue on the course of things.
The world will operate by a one world government,the 10 horns,which is the world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section.The one world government will fail at keeping the peace as a terrible war breaks out and the world cannot trust government anymore.Governments will collapse.
The world after that terrible war,the 6th trumpet,still will not turn to God to help them so God gives them the antichrist to rule over them.
The antichrist will be a man that will claim to be above all that is called God or is worshipped.His agenda is it is all about man with no governmental or religious authority above them.
He will claim to be above all their religions and all religions will be obsolete and will fall.All religions will fall.
The world that does not love God will fall to strong delusion to follow the beast kingdom which the devils will deceive all people that do not love God.When they take the mark of the beast they will have the nature of a devil and cannot repent of their sins anymore and they will fight against the saints and prevail against them,which the Bible says the last king will destroy the holy and mighty people physically.
God can then take His children to be with Him.
There is a resurrection of the saints but it will not happen until the man of sin causes all that do not love God to take the mark of the beast because God will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him.
As long as the world can repent of their sins the saints will remain on earth.
When God takes His children to be with Him then God will return with His saints and fight the world and put them down(Zechariah chapter 14).
The Bible says that the saints will not be united with Christ until the man of sin appears to deceive the world.
That is because God is love and God will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him.
As long as the world can repent of their sins God will not take His children to be with Him.
When they take the mark of the beast they cannot repent of their sins anymore and God can then take His children and put the world down.
God will allow the world to have their way for 7 years because God will allow all people that do not love God to follow the beast kingdom and take the mark so He can continue on the course of things.
The world will operate by a one world government,the 10 horns,which is the world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section.The one world government will fail at keeping the peace as a terrible war breaks out and the world cannot trust government anymore.Governments will collapse.
The world after that terrible war,the 6th trumpet,still will not turn to God to help them so God gives them the antichrist to rule over them.
The antichrist will be a man that will claim to be above all that is called God or is worshipped.His agenda is it is all about man with no governmental or religious authority above them.
He will claim to be above all their religions and all religions will be obsolete and will fall.All religions will fall.
The world that does not love God will fall to strong delusion to follow the beast kingdom which the devils will deceive all people that do not love God.When they take the mark of the beast they will have the nature of a devil and cannot repent of their sins anymore and they will fight against the saints and prevail against them,which the Bible says the last king will destroy the holy and mighty people physically.
God can then take His children to be with Him.
There is a resurrection of the saints but it will not happen until the man of sin causes all that do not love God to take the mark of the beast because God will not give up on the world until the world gives up on Him.
As long as the world can repent of their sins the saints will remain on earth.
When God takes His children to be with Him then God will return with His saints and fight the world and put them down(Zechariah chapter 14).
Really? I quote scripture chapter and verse all the time.
Mark 13:
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand. 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Christ says He tells us ALL THINGS. He says He comes AFTER the Tribulation.
Why then do you, Linda and others insist on calling Christ a liar and place His return before the Tribulation?
Mark 13:
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand. 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Christ says He tells us ALL THINGS. He says He comes AFTER the Tribulation.
Why then do you, Linda and others insist on calling Christ a liar and place His return before the Tribulation?
L
This is the Olivet Discourse--also found in Matthew 24-25, and Luke 21. The Church is never mentioned in the entire Olivet Discourse. This Discourse concerns ISRAEL, the Tribulation, the Second Coming, the judgment of the nations, and the setting up of the Millennial Kingdom in Jerusalem. There is NO Church here. The passage you quote is the Second Coming of Christ TO the earth to judge the nations and set up His earthly Kingdom.
Being a "post-tribulationist", you see the Church going through the tribulation along with Israel, or you are teaching that Israel IS the Church. Therefore there is no way that you will see a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church because you are not even looking for one. To you, the post-trib rapture and the Second Coming are only ONE event, instead of in two facets.
After almost 40 years of studying the Bible and Bible prophecy, there is NO way you, or anybody else, will convince me of a post tribulation rapture (which is a non-event, IMO).
Pre-tribulation rapture of the Church (1 Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). We will be "changed" (glorified); we will be "caught up" (harpadzo) to meet Jesus "in the air". Jesus does not set foot on earth at this time. The Rapture is for the Church, not Israel. This event (rapture) is imminent...it can happen at any time...and He is coming FOR the saints (Church).
Second Coming is for Israel and there will be signs during the Tribulation period, of His coming TO earth. (Zechariah 14:4) He will come back WITH the saints (Church) to set up His earthly 1,000 year Kingdom in Jerusalem.
There is NO post-tribulation rapture of the Church.
Maranatha!
Being a "post-tribulationist", you see the Church going through the tribulation along with Israel, or you are teaching that Israel IS the Church. Therefore there is no way that you will see a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church because you are not even looking for one. To you, the post-trib rapture and the Second Coming are only ONE event, instead of in two facets.
After almost 40 years of studying the Bible and Bible prophecy, there is NO way you, or anybody else, will convince me of a post tribulation rapture (which is a non-event, IMO).
Pre-tribulation rapture of the Church (1 Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). We will be "changed" (glorified); we will be "caught up" (harpadzo) to meet Jesus "in the air". Jesus does not set foot on earth at this time. The Rapture is for the Church, not Israel. This event (rapture) is imminent...it can happen at any time...and He is coming FOR the saints (Church).
Second Coming is for Israel and there will be signs during the Tribulation period, of His coming TO earth. (Zechariah 14:4) He will come back WITH the saints (Church) to set up His earthly 1,000 year Kingdom in Jerusalem.
There is NO post-tribulation rapture of the Church.
Maranatha!
The concept of the church was introduced in Mat 16:18 but the church hadn't really started until Pentecost. But you need to consider the questioners and the audience. We learn from Mark 13 who asked the question and thus who Jesus answered.
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
These are fathers of the church. They are saved believers!! If the Rapture happened 10 years after Christ ascension do you not think they would be raptured? Do you see any Jew getting Raptured when the time comes or is the Rapture concept reserved for the Gentile church?
Jesus says in John 15:
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Jesus says in Mark 13:
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
Do you really believe Jesus saw his disciples as only Jewish thus not worthy of being taught the Rapture when they specifically asked for the signs of His coming? Paul was Jewish too. Why did Paul warrant receiving the Rapture mystery and the other disciples did not?
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
These are fathers of the church. They are saved believers!! If the Rapture happened 10 years after Christ ascension do you not think they would be raptured? Do you see any Jew getting Raptured when the time comes or is the Rapture concept reserved for the Gentile church?
Jesus says in John 15:
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.
Jesus says in Mark 13:
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
Do you really believe Jesus saw his disciples as only Jewish thus not worthy of being taught the Rapture when they specifically asked for the signs of His coming? Paul was Jewish too. Why did Paul warrant receiving the Rapture mystery and the other disciples did not?
Correct Linda. They are one event and it happens AFTER the Tribulation as clearly taught. No timing of the Lord returning BEFORE this can be found anywhere in the Bible.
[h=4]1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV[/h] For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
If God wanted us to believe in an earlier return of Christ it would be clearly taught. It isn't. If you weren't taught in the Rapture doctrine as a child as I was, and were just reading and studying the Bible on your own you would have NEVER come up with the Rapture doctrine as it isn't there. The Rapture is a Tradition of Man. It is a private Interpretation of prophesy.
[h=4]2 Peter 1:20 NKJV[/h] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation...
[h=4]1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV[/h] For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
If God wanted us to believe in an earlier return of Christ it would be clearly taught. It isn't. If you weren't taught in the Rapture doctrine as a child as I was, and were just reading and studying the Bible on your own you would have NEVER come up with the Rapture doctrine as it isn't there. The Rapture is a Tradition of Man. It is a private Interpretation of prophesy.
[h=4]2 Peter 1:20 NKJV[/h] knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation...
Not exactly Linda. Neither are my views. Israel and the Church are two separate entities. However, they will become ONE. Remember, we (the Gentile Church) are grafted in with them (THE JEWS). It isn't the other way around.
Romans 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
All that remains of Israel after Jacob's Trouble will be saved. ALL MEANS ALL.
As for the church, it is a much longer topic which needs to start with defining the church. What and who make up the church in your mind Linda? Is it all denominations or is it those who believe Jesus is the son of God and died on the cross? Is the church comprised of all those who are saved??? If all those who are saved, we are taught all of Israel will be saved in the end. So, think carefully before you answer.
Romans 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
All that remains of Israel after Jacob's Trouble will be saved. ALL MEANS ALL.
As for the church, it is a much longer topic which needs to start with defining the church. What and who make up the church in your mind Linda? Is it all denominations or is it those who believe Jesus is the son of God and died on the cross? Is the church comprised of all those who are saved??? If all those who are saved, we are taught all of Israel will be saved in the end. So, think carefully before you answer.
I believe you Linda. Sadly. But I love you as my sister in Christ and I love all other believers who have fallen for this evil deception of Satan. So I am trying to do my part for the kingdom but sadly, the more time I spend teaching the truth and warning of the evils of the Pre-Trib Doctrine the more I see how strong the delusion is.
I have been studying this topic well over 30 years Linda and I started out believing as you do. So for me to change took a lot of prayer and study to break the hold the deception had over me. It was truly the most spiritual experience I ever had when my eyes were opened to the truth.
It is not too late Linda. Study the Word again without bias. Try and prove the existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture by reading everything again with much prayer to see the truth. You cannot find the Pre-Trib Rapture being taught. It certainly is not a stand alone doctrine. Jesus never utters a word about any Pre-Trib return in all His teachings.
The doctrine is fabricated from two main passages of Paul which are taken out of context. You have to believe Paul was given some mystery that not even Christ was aware of to believe this.
I have been studying this topic well over 30 years Linda and I started out believing as you do. So for me to change took a lot of prayer and study to break the hold the deception had over me. It was truly the most spiritual experience I ever had when my eyes were opened to the truth.
It is not too late Linda. Study the Word again without bias. Try and prove the existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture by reading everything again with much prayer to see the truth. You cannot find the Pre-Trib Rapture being taught. It certainly is not a stand alone doctrine. Jesus never utters a word about any Pre-Trib return in all His teachings.
The doctrine is fabricated from two main passages of Paul which are taken out of context. You have to believe Paul was given some mystery that not even Christ was aware of to believe this.
Last edited: