It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Timeline]

While we have some "dead air" on this thread, I would also like to include the fact that Jesus says that not all who believe they are saved, are in fact saved. So, while I do believe that the "burden is light", we must consider what "they" were doing wrong, so that we don't make the same error is judgment.

 

[Timeline]

1 Corinthians 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

 

[Atwood]

We do have eternal security in Jesus Christ. And that is what the bible tells us. But, what OSAS try (or at least it seems to me that they are trying) to say that we cannot reject Jesus. This is where we disagree.

If you trust the Lord Jesus and then end up in the Lake of Fire, you were not secure at all, let alone eternally secure. One cannot both be secure and not secure.

It is noted that you quoted scripture, but none of it spoke about rejecting the Savior one trusted and thus not being secure.

"[SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.(Heb. 6:4-8).

you must not stop at verse 8, since 6:9 explains the passage that it refers to those who had not attained the status of salvation.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

[SUP]

[/SUP]If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.(1 Cor. 3:10-15)

This passage has to do with a Christian getting rewards or losing rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ. It is a very which indicates security. The Christian judged is saved, even if his works (not him) are burned up in judgment.

At this point in time, I believe that we are told that we must remain in Jesus Christ and that, if we choose, we can leave Him and the eternal security that He provides.

That means one has no security at all. To call that eternal security would be an oxymoron. If there is one thing a Christian needs security against, it is his Old Man flesh, against the Sin which indwells Him, though in Rom 7 it is said, "It is no longer I who do it [evil], but Sin that dwells in me."

But as long as we are in Him, even if our work is lacking, we will be saved, but we will suffer loss.

In context the loss is loss of reward.

Maybe it is what is lost to the kingdom of God, in our failing to bring others to Christ.

Have you considered what is the result for a pretend Christian who never trusted Christ with his destiny, but played at religion? What about the pretender who taught a false "gospel" wherein the Lord Jesus was not the only & sufficient Savior who gives eternal life and guarantees non-perishing. What about the guy who teaches the Jesus is not a Savior, but one who gives a man a shot at being saved, if he doesn't do this or that?

Let me urge you to believe the promises of God and actually trust the SAvior with your destiny.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

What is the problem?
Is it that one doesn't understand eternal?
Or that one doesn't understand never?

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[Atwood]

Yes, we have to wait on God for some things, but if you never received what you asked for, then your waiting was in vain.

The wait for a glorified body will not be in vain; but we must wait for it.

Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

Now what does that prove about what a believer today can expect from the Lord, absolutely nothing. I hope you don't kill yourself and others by pretending you have 20/20 vision when you need glasses.

God creates the fruit of your lips, and if you are going to continue to walk in the natural, rather than by faith, then you will have as you believed and spoke.

What you are implying is false, and you have not given any scripture to prove it. You cannot just speak things into existence. How can anyone live in such a state of delusion?

Sickness is another. We are redeemed from this curse as well, when we receive it by faith, and you cannot do that if you are looking at the natural all the time.

The redemption from sickness waits until the glorified body. You utter non-Biblical delusion.

God did not tell Paul, no, but gave him the answer to his question.

Yes, Paul asked 3 times & got the answer that God's grace was sufficient for him. The thorn in the flesh did not go away; it was the price Paul paid for being taken to the 3rd Heaven -- lest he become proud.

You will get sick if you go on living. Your body will decay. You will be a weak old man some day if you live on. You will find you can't play ball as you used to. You operate under delusion, & we know whose stock in trade that is.

 

[Bookends]

Do you have verses for idolatry? Nothing comes to my mind on that one. Indeed, in Galatia (Antioch of Pisidia, Lystra, Iconium, Derbe) there was an infiltration or attack by Judaizers. I believe it is described at the end of Acts 14 and led to a settlement of the problem at the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15, which I date right after the conflict at Galatia described in Galatians 2, where Paul rebuked Peter.

I'm making an application, for Jews who were once converted to Christianity and then to go back to the types and shadows, Judaism, is like going back to idolatry. Same for the gentile, if a gentile gets saved but then goes back to pagan worship, it's the same thing, idolatry.

 

[Bookends]

Of course Paul uses graphic figure of speech. Compare Ephesians and Colossians were the Old Man is put off and the New Man put on. The persons he addresses are called presently "his children." Thus the problem is not that they are unsaved now after having been saved (oxymoron language). The problem is that they need to manifest their godly nature and be led by the Holy Spirit. It is Paul who is "in travail." That is not God in travail to bring forth new Christians. The new birth is from God, not from Paul.

Good argument, all through I agree being born again is from God and not Paul, one comes to faith and being "born again" by hearing, by which hearing comes by the Holy Spirit working through US.

 

[Bookends]

Bookends,

The Christian can go back and forth between sinning in carnality and walking by the Spirit. In many things we all stumble. You can expect Christians to sin every day and be confessing sins every day. But they don't get lost and saved every day. We may have the Christ-mophe or the Old Man morphe, like putting on different suits of clothing. Is it really rocket science to understand that Christians sin and Christians also do miraculous good works, unselfishly loving even their enemies?

I wouldn't go to pot on some figure of speech Paul uses for the Galatians. As Peter says, some things in Paul are hard to understand. There are plenty of clear passages that tell a man how to become saved, like:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

And there are plenty of clear passages that tell us Christians sin and need correction.

Philippians 1:6

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

That scripture that Paul told the Philippians refers, IMO, to the church in Philippi, not to individual salvation. Can an application be made to individual, I don't know.

Someone can profess Christ and believe in Him, but live as the world lives, or later deny what he proclaimed and reject Christ...are they saved, not according to John...Read the book of 1 John. You just can't take one verse, or two, and turn it into a OSAS proof text for eternal security.

John in 1 John wants to Christians to KNOW that they are saved, and gives 4 tests for us to KNOW if we are children of God. If they were all saved just because they classified themselves as Christian, there should be no need for John to make it clear how a true Christians behaves, believes, obeys, and feels.

 

[Atwood]

On the cross the Lord Jesus made purification of sins.

his Son, whom he appointed
heir of all things,
through whom also he made the worlds;
who being the effulgence of his glory, and
the very image of his substance, and u
pholding all things by the word of his power,
when he had made purification of sins,
sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

It is finished, He declared. He sat down, the work of salvation finished.

All the sins of the Christian were purified at that point, an event long in the past. Whatever sin the Christian may commit in his life, it was purified some 2000 years ago. Thus his salvation is never in question. He has eternal security.

He gives eternal life to His sheep in this life. If one is a sheep, one has already eternal life. And those who get eternal life will never perish.

(BTW, this life is eternal. And the perishing is never.)

Can you trust Him for this? Or do you have some doubtful ifs ands or buts?

 

[Atwood]

The Salvation of the Lord Jesus is incredibly grand. It is eternal life. It includes complete eradication of the Sin nature and "freely given all things." We must wait for death or the rapture for some of the great blessings, but they are sure, as sure as the promises and the omnipotence of the Lord.

Let no one bad-mouth the efficacy of this Salvation or fail to trust the Lord for what He has promised, eternal life, merely for trusting in His precious Son.

Heb 2

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation?

 

[Atwood]

HE SAVES TO THE UTTERMOST

We have a Savior, not just one who gives us a chance to be saved, if we do thus & so, or refrain from doing thus & so. We are not made children of God by a new birth, only to be dumped in the world on our own resources. Our security is maintained by His intervention. He is our continual advocate and never lets us be temped above our ability to withstand it, always making an escape possible. He cuts short history so that the elect will not perish. He saves to the uttermost.


Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succor them that are tempted. - Heb 2

When Peter was going to be sifted like wheat, the Lord Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail, that before Peter was in the Church, the Body of Christ, which was yet future. How much more now would He not pray that the faith of members of His own body not fail? Could the Lord stand amputation?

And they indeed have been made priests many in number, because that by death they are hindered from continuing: but he, because he abideth for ever, hath his priesthood unchangeable. Wherefore also he is able to save to the uttermost them that draw near to God through him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Heb 7

This saving to the uttermost supposes that Christians sin and need help through their sinful states. For intercession implies sin on the part of the one's needing a good lawyer.

Rom 5


"For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life;

Those who in past being reconciled in salvation, shall be saved -- no ifs ands or buts; saved by His life.

Scorn not so great salvation. Salvation to the uttermost is possible if you will draw near to God by faith in the Lord Jesus.

 

[Timeline]

Hebrews 2:1-4
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, [SUP]4 [/SUP]God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

 

[Timeline]

You have one of "your" guys here in my office saying that you are right and that the "greek" in Hebrews 6 says that it is not possible to fall away. I will talk to someone else that can read greek to see if this is accurate.

 

[Atwood]

That scripture that Paul told the Philippians refers, IMO, to the church in Philippi, not to individual salvation. Can an application be made to individual, I don't know.

Well, look at the context:

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is obvious that Paul addresses the individual saints, rather than the corporate church per se.


"being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ: even as it is right for me to be thus minded on behalf of you all,
because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as, both in my bonds and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers with me of grace. For God is my witness, how I long after you all in the tender mercies of Christ Jesus. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment; so that ye may approve the things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and void of offence to the day of Christ; being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

The saints are singled out in this introduction.

"he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Someone can profess Christ and believe in Him, but live as the world lives, or later deny what he proclaimed and reject Christ...are they saved, not according to John...Read the book of 1 John. You just can't take one verse, or two, and turn it into a OSAS proof text for eternal security.

I never heard anyone claim that professors had security; only those who trust the Lord Jesus as SAvior have security. I have read 1 John or heard it played audio, probably over 100 times. 1 John implies that apostasy proves certain persons were never saved. Who is taking 1 or 2 verses? If this site were a house, the walls, floors, & ceilings would be plastered with verses. Do I need to repost them again? If you can't find them, let me know, & I will dump a grocery list again.

If they were all saved just because they classified themselves as Christian, there should be no need for John to make it clear how a true Christians behaves, believes, obeys, and feels.

Whoever said someone was saved because he classified himself as a Christian. While you are going on about behavior, remember that salvation is never by works. Works are the result, not the cause of salvation. Surely I don't need to quote Eph 2 again, do I? Do you think you will get to Heaven based on your works?

 

[Atwood]

You have one of "your" guys here in my office saying that you are right and that the "greek" in Hebrews 6 says that it is not possible to fall away. I will talk to someone else that can read greek to see if this is accurate.

Well timeline, I think it is clear enough in Heb 6:9 even in English. But it is always good to check the Greek. I recommend to you spending a couple of hours some day just to learn the Greek font (mostly Greek letters are the same alphabet in different font), if you have not. And I think that Biblos.com has an interlinear, a Greek text with English translation under each Greek word. At least that helps one get at the Greek.

 

[newbirth]

Agreed, so tell me pleased how can one do this, if one does not see God's love to us first?
Is it true that one can only love and forgive as much as one thinks they are loved and forgiven
So if one discovers
"how deep is his love" how deep will one love in return?

You keep doubting everyone else love for God. God says if you love me keep my commandments
To you may think that, believe ,faith and love are all mind things but to God they are all action things.I believe in being a doer of the word

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Acts 19:17-19
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.


Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.


John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

[Atwood]

What more can we expect from our Great Savior and His Great Salvation?

We are promised to be given "all things" freely (Rom 8).
We are promised to live with Him (John 14).
We are promised eternal life.

Yet we are told in Eph 3 that the Lord is able to do exceeding abundant above all we ask or think.
Well I can think of being sinless and perfect, walking on streets of gold, having all tears wiped away, having nothing but bliss without a shred of conflict, not one ache or pain, not one need unmet. Having daily delight and delicious fruit from the Tree of Life to eat. I can think of having no inward conflict, not flesh lusting vs the Spirit. All that seems good enough to me. But good enough is not good enough for the Lord when it comes to blessing His children.

And consider that this is all by God's Grace and that we have the privilege (if we trust Christ as Savior) to be a trophy of His grace. It is too good to be true, that we have been chosen to demonstrate how God does good to those sinners hostile to him. But in our wretchedness, He knew us, sought us when we sought Him not. He put the word in our way; he sent someone to witness to us. And He recreated us so that we are now begotten of God. His, forever His.
He is our exceeding great reward.

So, I wonder what it could be, the exceeding abundant above all we ask or think? Not just slightly more, but exceedingly abundantly more.

Is it no wonder that Paul indicated that when he was raptured to Heaven he saw what is impermissible to reveal? A speculation on this is that Christians would be temped to suicide if they knew what awaited them in Heaven. But whatever may happen, in a very short time this life will be over, and those who trust the Lord Jesus, will have His company and blessing.

I hath not seen,
Neither hath you!

 

[Timeline]

Well timeline, I think it is clear enough in Heb 6:9 even in English. But it is always good to check the Greek. I recommend to you spending a couple of hours some day just to learn the Greek font (mostly Greek letters are the same alphabet in different font), if you have not. And I think that Biblos.com has an interlinear, a Greek text with English translation under each Greek word. At least that helps one get at the Greek.

Yes, I would like to learn the Coin A (I don't know how to spell it (Konia?)) Greek, but I want to really learn it and not just dabble, because I believe that people run into problems when they dabble in Greek. I have found that Strong's is of very limited help because there are so many synonyms that are under each word. And not really any help in applying the word to words that are around it.

I disagree that the English says what you say it says. I believe that there are plenty of places in the bible that suggests that we can reject God's grace. We see in the OT that God divorced Israel (Jer. 3:8). I do realize that this was done under the Law of Moses, but it is no little thing. We see God's patience with Israel again and again, but finally God said that He was done. In the NT, He offered Israel, as well as the Gentiles, a new promise. But I do believe that God's patience with us can reach an end. And I do not believe that someone that once claimed Jesus as their Savior (even for a majority of their lifetime) can latter say that they do not believe in God and/or Jesus and still be saved.

 

[newbirth]

Well, look at the context:

Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is obvious that Paul addresses the individual saints, rather than the corporate church per se.


"being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ: even as it is right for me to be thus minded on behalf of you all,
because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as, both in my bonds and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers with me of grace. For God is my witness, how I long after you all in the tender mercies of Christ Jesus. And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and all discernment; so that ye may approve the things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and void of offence to the day of Christ; being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

The saints are singled out in this introduction.

"he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ."



I never heard anyone claim that professors had security; only those who trust the Lord Jesus as SAvior have security. I have read 1 John or heard it played audio, probably over 100 times. 1 John implies that apostasy proves certain persons were never saved. Who is taking 1 or 2 verses? If this site were a house, the walls, floors, & ceilings would be plastered with verses. Do I need to repost them again? If you can't find them, let me know, & I will dump a grocery list again.



Whoever said someone was saved because he classified himself as a Christian. While you are going on about behavior, remember that salvation is never by works. Works are the result, not the cause of salvation. Surely I don't need to quote Eph 2 again, do I? Do you think you will get to Heaven based on your works?

[h=3]Philippians 1[/h]King James Version (KJV)

1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

[SUP]5[/SUP]For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

[SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
This letter show a very close relationship between Paul and the saints at Philippi. But what the good work God had begun in them?
For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now
Notice how he prays for them.
One cannot just assume they are in the same position as the saints at Philippi for Paul to have the same confidence in him.These people have a track record. Paul does not know us. You may have that confidence in yourself which is good, but I don't believe in self praise. If however someone who knows you have that confidence in you by all means.

 

[newbirth]

You have one of "your" guys here in my office saying that you are right and that the "greek" in Hebrews 6 says that it is not possible to fall away. I will talk to someone else that can read greek to see if this is accurate.

[h=3]Matthew 7:13-15[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

 

[newbirth]

When Peter was going to be sifted like wheat, the Lord Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail, that before Peter was in the Church, the Body of Christ, which was yet future. How much more now would He not pray that the faith of members of His own body not fail? Could the Lord stand amputation?

.

If he commands you this ,will he not do it himself?
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


[h=3]Luke 13:23-25[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: