Self Defense - Is it wrong?

[Allin]

I'm glad that you escaped that abusive situation as not everyone else in that situation always does. Which begs the question, where were these "guardian angels" of yours for the children who died in the same situation?

I have no doubt God is involved with the problem of evil in the lives of children but it apparently does not always manifest itself in escape in this world.

Myself, I don't have a victim mentality. As far as I'm concerned, other adults should have stepped in with government intervention and put an end to the abuse.

No one expects a little child to be able to defend themselves against an abusive parent or guardian though hopefully they get taught at least in school that they can go to a teacher or counselor if that's occurring and get government intervention and I say this as a conservative Christian who believes we need a more limited government... just not in that area (the area of rescuing abused children).

But consider that if more adults thought like me (e.g. assertively ending the problem): these problems would be ended much more often.

Doing nothing changes nothing. Saving lives and ending abuse requires the intervention of adults when they see it occurring.

Age, great statement and question here:

"Where were these 'guardian angels' of yours for the children who died in the same situation? I have no doubt God is involved with the problem of evil in the lives of children but it apparently does not always manifest itself in escape in this world."


1. Where were/are guardian angels when children are abused? Without going into it too much, I'll just remind us that all angels operate by a.) God's will, and b.) prayer or intercession. Guardian angels are often activated by prayer. This means that when a child is abused, their angel will stand by and often be unable to act because there is no one interceding for the child. This begs the question: "How would one intercede for the child?" or better yet, "How would one know to intercede for the child?" God wants people (Christians) to walk in a sensitivity to His presence and His voice. The benefits of this are endless. For one, it enables a Christian to perceive when something isn't right; and two, it enables a Christian to hear God when He directs them in what to do. Examples:

A.) You are a Christian and live across the street from a nice Christian family. The dad abuses the kids, but no one knows because he does it all behind closed doors. But God knows. If you are a discerning Christian (or a Christian who consciously is aware of God's presence and voice/leading), He will tell you one way or another (i.e. He will let you know; He may not tell you word for word, but He will cause you to perceive something). At that time, your 'job' is to pray about it. As you pray, He will give you more revelation on what is going on or/and how to pray. If you 'accept the responsibility' and begin to intercede (or simply pray as God leads you), your prayers will 'activate' the children's angels and maybe other angels (if the children's angels need help; it depends on what's going on and the seriousness of it all). If you 'stand in the gap' (which is what 'intercede' really means; it does not primarily mean prayer), God may have you do all kinds of things: e.g. befriend the dad; make prophetic declarations; befriend the abused children; any number of things as He knows the best way to intervene in these kinds of things. The end result, if you intercede as you are led, will be God's will which will generally be good for the children (and maybe the dad too) or may turn out bad at which point He will then use the negative outcome to reach far wider in that neighborhood (and possibly farther) than if it was 'a happy ending'.

2. God's answer for the problems children face doesn't always manifest itself in this world. It can. God created people as social beings, but our interactions are normally body to body and soul to soul. When a person becomes a Christian, his interaction with others is supposed to become enhanced to include spiritual interaction. At this level, God is able to intervene in the unanswered problems with children, because He can work through people whose spirits are open to Him. The Holy Spirit knows every little thing (Heb. 4:12-13); and it is His intention to disclose to Christians these things when they are answers and solutions for unsolved and unresolved issues and problems. Before the inception of the NT, He was already revealing to His people things that were invisible to the natural senses. King Nebuchadnezzar confessed when God revealed not only the interpretation of his dream but the undisclosed dream itself to Daniel and his friends, "Surely, your God is the God of gods and the Lord of kings and a Revealer of Mysteries, for you were able to reveal this mystery" (Dan. 2:47)[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. [/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God's answers can manifest here and now; He just needs people who are available.[/FONT]

 

[Allin]

[video=youtube;pkM-gDcmJeM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkM-gDcmJeM&list=RDy8BBCYFAYRI&index=10[/video]

We were definitely made to be courageous, and not in theory or just music. By God's Grace, there are not enough people, spirits, or devices to convince me otherwise. I look like this when I have fun: Even when I eat my cereal, I'm thinking of fighting. Okay, maybe during breakfast is the exception. Lol. If you are male and have a heartbeat, then God has made you to be a mighty warrior (and there is no other truth besides), because God Himself is a mighty Warrior: "The Lord is a Man of War, the Lord is His Name" (Ex. 15:3). Amen to that.

 

[Allin]

Nothing you said is wrong. Yes, my father hit me when I was very small, up until preteens when he stopped because we were strong enough to fight back. He never left bruises, and did not hit me or my siblings as much as other abusive parent cases. He was much more of a mental abuser, and let me tell you that those scars run deeper than any physical pain endured. It is not that there were not people to help, it was more of no one knew. I was lead to believe that this was normal, that most parents do this, that it was nothing unusual. When my mother finally divorced him (we left a year ago, divorce finalized a few months ago), it hurt to have others say that it was not God's intention for divorce. They have no idea what we went through. I'll never forget the night when I, a sound and heavy sleeper, woke up without reason, and walked out of my room to find my father watching porn. A supposed Christian, church going father. He could really put on the "good father" act for other people. It hurts even more when he sends soppy hallmark Christmas and birthday cards to me. These cards claim me as his daughter, yet he has never once showed fatherly love for me. My real father is God. If not for the Lord, I would not know what fatherly love is.

So my point-yes it is important for adults (or anyone) to take action when such a problem becomes known. But the majority of abuse cases are so subtle, most will never be known. And many of those children still think that such behavior is normal.

As far as the guardian angels, I have no doubt they are real. When I was repeatedly thrown off the same horse, in different locations, but due to the place I live they were always filled with rocks, how was it I only ever landed in the area without rocks? Literally, I would hit the ground and notice that there were rocks all around me, but I somehow had missed landing on them. There were many other times, many other situations, where I should have been hurt or even killed but came out miraculously unscathed. Such as the time I was riding my bike back from the barn, following traffic laws to go with the flow of traffic (there were no sidewalks). A semi came up with no space to go around me, and that semi passed only a few inches from my side. I very nearly got hit. In all probability, I should have been hit, possibly and most likely killed. I have no doubt God and his angels were with me, and always are with me.

I am not God. I cannot answer the questions of "where were the guardian angels when the children died". I do not know His ways or reasons. But I do know that guardian angels are every bit as real as demons, aka "fallen angels". The funny thing is, no one ever doubts the existence of demons or satan, but continually doubt God, and to a lesser degree His angels.

Psalm 91:11-12
For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

I love Psalm 91. And here it clearly states that His guardian angels are real. It even says "His angels concerning you", implying that we all have guardian angels.

Why do terrible things happen? Because God gave us free will, which means the ability to choose between right and wrong. If He stopped everyone from ever having bad thoughts or actions, we would lose our free will. We would not love Him of our own free will either. We would all become robots, for lack of a better word.

Though I myself do occasionally wish that He would just let us be robots. But His ways and understandings are much higher than mine. I suppose if we were robots that had no choice but to love Him, it would be a bit like the teddy bear that says I love you on a voice recording to everyone.

As per the other debate going on-people will be people and will hold their own beliefs and values (again coming back to free will here). You can try and show them the truth, but if their hearts are closed and their eyes veiled they will not see it nor will they hear it. So continuing to try to change their mind is a bit like pouring water into the sand and expecting it to stay afloat and not sink.

I really like where the psalmist says, "He will command His angels concerning you to keep you in all your ways." There's so much Love and tenderness emanating from that sentence. It reminds me of the mother quality in God: "He will command His angels (father aspect) concerning you (mother aspect) to keep you in all your ways (father and mother)." I just had to!

 

[Allin]

Well keeping our faith in God is the most hardest work of all works. We live in a very deceiving world that can bring the devil out of us. The devil and his angels is going to make sure that we become like them by brain-washing our minds believing that right is wrong and wrong is right. We all need to keep our minds focus on Christ at all times, and if we ever wind up in an unfortunate situation, we should always have in our minds thinking what would Jesus do in this predicaments.

I agree to Deadtosin's response to this: "What would Jesus want me to do?" rather than "What would Jesus do?" Jesus Himself is on a different level; He generally doesn't have to do anything. He was perfectly walking in the Father, therefore, the Father was perfectly protecting Him and doing all the 'what would Jesus do' for Him (refer to Ps. 91 for "He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High"). We aren't there yet, so we need to ask what He would want us to do. But it's better to know it before you get in the situation. But, as you said, if you keep your heart on Christ, the odds are high that harm will even come near you. He sets up a covering of angels (if you will) around you the more your heart is set on Him: "No harm will befall you; no evil will come near your dwelling" (Ps. 91). Maybe someone should start a thread on who God protects, who He doesn't protect, and what requirements need to be met to have protection or no protection. That would be enlightening

 

[Timeline]

Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear.

The key word here is he drew his sword. It was not a concealed dagger but a long sword. If we are not allowed to defend ourselves then why would Jesus allow Peter to carry a sword ?

While I agree that we can defend ourselves, I don't think this is a good point. I personally believe that Jesus asked them to bring a sword, expecting (knowing) that Peter would do this, but He immediately puts a stop to it.

I have thought about this and believe (though I may be wrong) that Peter had every intention of killing Malchus. Peter, as far as we know, was not a master swordsman, he was a fisherman. It is only by the grace of God that Peter didn't bury that sword into Malchus's head. And why it didn't go into his shoulder is a bit of a mystery (not that Jesus couldn't have healed any wound that Peter inflicted on Malchus). I suppose it was to fulfill prophecy, but I don't really know.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Meanwhile, around the world Christians killed for faith nearly doubled in 2013: Christians killed for faith nearly doubled in 2013, group finds | Fox News

I guess that weren't "encamped" properly. Have you thought about going to some of these other countries and teaching them how to encamp properly so they will be invulnerable?

My friend, who was murdered by one of the three black gang members who confronted him while he was passing out Christian tracts in Hollywood, CA during the Rodney King riots could have used encampment vulnerability too. Oh wait, he already ascribed to encampment invulnerability theology but was murdered anyways.

Obviously, I know what you're talking about but what you don't apparently realize is that you can get assaulted, robbed, and/or murdered anyways like my Christian missionary friend to the lost in Los Angeles, CA was.

What he needed was someone to pm him and tell him to get out of there because the riots had started. But that didn't happen. So now he's dead and an encampment invulnerability theology fail.

He does encamp around those who fear Him. The only times I got in fights or almost got in fights, I was a part of the cause. Other times, walking through neighborhoods that people told me not to walk through, I never had any issues. There was a time in Kentucky when I wondered why everyone said that an area between 5th and 7th streets was dangerous especially at night. After walking through that area many times and having no problems, I wondered about it. The Lord then told me that He was protecting me (the encampment thing), and that was when it all made sense. If I was going there to make trouble, the protection would lift at least some; but I was just walking through, so the protection remained. So, when it comes down, it does depend on your faith and relationship with God.

 

[Allin]

Meanwhile, around the world Christians killed for faith nearly doubled in 2013: Christians killed for faith nearly doubled in 2013, group finds | Fox News

I guess that weren't "encamped" properly. Have you thought about going to some of these other countries and teaching them how to encamp properly so they will be invulnerable?

My friend, who was murdered by one of the three black gang members who confronted him while he was passing out Christian tracts in Hollywood, CA during the Rodney King riots could have used encampment vulnerability too. Oh wait, he already ascribed to encampment invulnerability theology but was murdered anyways.

Obviously, I know what you're talking about but what you don't apparently realize is that you can get assaulted, robbed, and/or murdered anyways like my Christian missionary friend to the lost in Los Angeles, CA was.

What he needed was someone to pm him and tell him to get out of there because the riots had started. But that didn't happen. So now he's dead and an encampment invulnerability theology fail.

It's never right to subscribe to a doctrine because you like it or because it's true in your life. That makes it easy to point at those for whom it isn't working and blame them. The Bible says that God protects His people. When His people meet harm or death, those passages in the Bible need to be revisited to see what they mean. That's why I wrote in my last post: "Maybe someone should start a thread on who God protects, who He doesn't protect, and what requirements need to be met to have protection or no protection." The above 'questions' cover all the issues of who is or isn't protected and the whys to it all. Only when God gives revelation concerning these kinds of things do they make sense to everyone and not just a few, but they have to be pursued or dug into, otherwise the only recourse of most of us would be to argue and debate. But the Bible is One; it doesn't contradict (debate with) itself. We only do so because we lack revelation, not because God somehow missed it: "The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and delivers them" and "Because you have made the Lord your dwelling... no harm will befall you" mean just what they say, and they are true in the lives of both those who experience God's protection from harm and those who don't.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

How do you deal with the conflict between a vast number of genuine faithful Christians trusting in Him being murdered throughout history right up to and including the present and your assertion that "the Bible says that God protects His people" in the manner you inferred in the context of this discussion which is no Christian should ever bother with adequate security or self-defense because they cannot suffer bodily harm as a genuine Christian in God's will according to His Word.

You even said they could go into dangerous areas without concern as long as they are there for Christian purpose and will never suffer bodily harm; even though I just gave you a real world example where exactly someone like that engaging in the Christian ministry God led him into for such an area was murdered anyways.

Another example, there's a lady I know from a small group fellowship that lives about ten miles from me. She's a strong faith-filled Christian who knows God's Word inside and out and is a prayer warrior and genuine to the core. So was her daughter. Her daughter was murdered on her apartment doorstep in a drive by shooting while witnessing to female gangbangers that had come to hear the Gospel.

You said:

"The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and delivers them" and "Because you have made the Lord your dwelling... no harm will befall you" mean just what they say, and they are true in the lives of both those who experience God's protection from harm and those who don't."

...those who don't. So how does no harm befall someone that harm befalls? <--I'd really like to know the answer to that question.

When people are murdered while relying on God's protection from harm; how do you rationalize that in your own head given your position?

So far, it appears that you don't know which is OK. Blowing smoke though is not OK. When you make illogical assertions and then don't properly defend them it can affect other people. Ignorance puts people at risk. It's one thing to delude yourself that you're invulnerable because you're such a great Christian, but it's an entirely other thing when you delude others that they are too.

Guess what? I actually know the answer to the puzzle but I want to see if you can figure it out. Here's a hint, there's no such thing as "encampment invulnerability theology." Moral theologians wouldn't have to treat martyrdom as the chief act of the virtue of fortitude if it actually existed.

It's never right to subscribe to a doctrine because you like it or because it's true in your life. That makes it easy to point at those for whom it isn't working and blame them. The Bible says that God protects His people. When His people meet harm or death, those passages in the Bible need to be revisited to see what they mean. That's why I wrote in my last post: "Maybe someone should start a thread on who God protects, who He doesn't protect, and what requirements need to be met to have protection or no protection." The above 'questions' cover all the issues of who is or isn't protected and the whys to it all. Only when God gives revelation concerning these kinds of things do they make sense to everyone and not just a few, but they have to be pursued or dug into, otherwise the only recourse of most of us would be to argue and debate. But the Bible is One; it doesn't contradict (debate with) itself. We only do so because we lack revelation, not because God somehow missed it: "The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and delivers them" and "Because you have made the Lord your dwelling... no harm will befall you" mean just what they say, and they are true in the lives of both those who experience God's protection from harm and those who don't.

 

[Deadtosin]

While I agree that we can defend ourselves, I don't think this is a good point. I personally believe that Jesus asked them to bring a sword, expecting (knowing) that Peter would do this, but He immediately puts a stop to it.

I have thought about this and believe (though I may be wrong) that Peter had every intention of killing Malchus. Peter, as far as we know, was not a master swordsman, he was a fisherman. It is only by the grace of God that Peter didn't bury that sword into Malchus's head. And why it didn't go into his shoulder is a bit of a mystery (not that Jesus couldn't have healed any wound that Peter inflicted on Malchus). I suppose it was to fulfill prophecy, but I don't really know.

They did a lot of traveling. For Jesus to command Peter to grab a sword meant either A they had one or B they had to buy one. I don't think Jesus had Peter buy a sword that day. As far as no shoulder wound its all about angles. Was malchus head down? was he leaning over? in both of these could scenario's the tip of the sward could sever the ear with no further damage.

 

[Timeline]

[SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]Luke 22:35-38
[SUP] 35 [/SUP]And He said to them, “When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?” They said, “No, nothing.” [SUP]36 [/SUP]And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. [SUP]37 [/SUP]For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘And He was numbered with transgressors’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.” [SUP]38 [/SUP]They said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Mark 15:27-28
[SUP]27 [/SUP]They *crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left. [SUP]28 [/SUP][And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with transgressors.”]

Luke mentions "number with transgressors" in relation to having a sword, but Mark relates it to being between the thieves.

Luke 22:51 But Jesus answered and said, “Stop! No more of this.” And He touched his ear and healed him.

John 18:10-11
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So Jesus said to Peter, “Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?”

It doesn't really make any sense, other than Jesus/God fulfilling prophecy (to me anyway), because Jesus says to get a sword (we really don't know where it came from), but He immediately stops the violence before it escalates.

It is doubtful, but possible, that Malchus was leaning over. But this, just like what I was doing, is speculation. It does seems improbable that Peter was not trying to kill Malchus.

 

[directline2iam]

If you were to defend yourself by fighting, or somebody else, is it okay? Or should we turn the other cheek, and allow ourselves to be beaten?

I am curious as to the poll results.

I am talking about strictly hand to hand combat, not weapons.

Please post your reasoning for your vote with scripture in the comments.

Thank you for participating.

It is strictly forbidden by God, for we live under grace, not the law. If you live under the law you are fighting back by defending yourself. Now you've broken the laws. Someone's fighting you and you're fighting back. So, two wrongs make a right? Since when. Fear is what causes one to defend their's. What does God say about fearing? When you have the Spirit like Stephen, your concern is not what is happening to you, but to the enemy...Father forgive them....Your heart and mind is focused on pure love not affected by the flesh. Can you just imagine how his heart felt towards those throwing stones at him? The lord said there would be wars and rumors of wars (people fighting, people defending) but He didn't say you had to choose to be a part of it, in fact He said, Be in the world but be not a part of it.

How would Jesus answer your question?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Good stuff!

TrackingPoint Inc., the Texas company that specializes in creating precision guided firearms, has harnessed Google Glass technology to create a firearm that can hit targets that are behind corners. It’s called the first precision-guided firearm (PGF).

[video=youtube_share;Xyqj5J92K4Q]http://youtu.be/Xyqj5J92K4Q[/video]

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

You're wrong. First of all, God's morality is an attribute of Himself and as unchanging as He is (e.g. immutability). It is universal for all people for all times. That means it's morally wrong to murder (not to be confused with killing in self-defense or just war) no matter when you were born or whether you live under the old covenant or the new covenant.

So when you argue that enabling murderers to murder by not stopping them when you can because to do so is "strictly forbidden by God" you are making a blatant false assertion.

Read: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/92856-self-defense-wrong-7.html#post1559740

Jesus told the disciples to buy a sword, and it is clear that Jesus advocated the use of a sword for self-defense purposes.

Jesus tells the disciples to buy a sword if he has none vs.38 and when they showed they had two, he said this is enough (for self-defense as He was NOT fomenting revolution). He was telling them to arm themselves for the purposes of self-defense because He was getting ready to separate from them and go to Golgotha to fulfill His cosmic mission of appropriation for humanity and would not be physically present for a time to protect them.

This is why Peter acted unwisely in the garden. First, it was getting in the way of God's soteriological plan. Secondly, Jesus did not need protection for He had the power of God available to Him as God and could miraculously walk through crowds of people intent on murdering Him as he did on other occasions, could call down legions of angels if needed, and could simply with supernatural power speak in such a way as to cause the guards to sway backwards and fall down which He did do allowing his disciples to escape and do so with their swords.

That doesn't equate to your false assertion that it's "strictly forbidden by God" for Peter to use his sword to stop a murderer from murdering an innocent apart from that one time for all humanity event. Obviously, you are wrong and it is morally righteous to stop murderers from murdering.

And don't confuse persecution with self-defense. There is a world of difference between defending yourself against criminals (e.g. murderers & rapists) and retaliation over spiritual persecution. Peter was rebuked for responding aggressively toward persecution (Luke 22:49-51) and getting in the way of what Jesus was about to accomplish. But Jesus did not tell Peter to throw his sword away, but to “put it in its place.”

"Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." -Psalm 82:4

Jesus never instructed his disciples to stand by and let wicked people murder them or others. Obviously, you're telling people to do something that is morally evil in and of itself. It is evil to stand by and watch innocents murdered if you can stop it. And obviously stopping a murderer from murdering you, if you can, saves the lives of others later.

The short sword was part of the Jews traveler's equipment for protection against robbers and wild animals. It was standard provision. A plain reading of the passage indicates that Jesus approved of conditional self-defense to protect from criminals and wild animals.

I cannot allow misguided people like you into my circle of trustworthy dependable people because you enable evil by refusing to resist it and stop it if you can. How could I ever allow someone as negligent and misguided as you around my loved ones. You'll stand by and tell everyone that stopping a murder is "strictly forbidden by God" enabling moral evil and putting everyone at risk.

You obviously lack the wisdom, courage, love, moral fortitude, and ability to uphold God's morality and stop the wicked from hurting or murdering the innocent and the righteous in the world.

Yes, be in the world and while you're here don't stand by and allow evil to propagate.

It is strictly forbidden by God, for we live under grace, not the law. If you live under the law you are fighting back by defending yourself. Now you've broken the laws. Someone's fighting you and you're fighting back. So, two wrongs make a right? Since when. Fear is what causes one to defend their's. What does God say about fearing? When you have the Spirit like Stephen, your concern is not what is happening to you, but to the enemy...Father forgive them....Your heart and mind is focused on pure love not affected by the flesh. Can you just imagine how his heart felt towards those throwing stones at him? The lord said there would be wars and rumors of wars (people fighting, people defending) but He didn't say you had to choose to be a part of it, in fact He said, Be in the world but be not a part of it.

How would Jesus answer your question?

 

[Allin]

How do you deal with the conflict between a vast number of genuine faithful Christians trusting in Him being murdered throughout history right up to and including the present and your assertion that "the Bible says that God protects His people" in the manner you inferred in the context of this discussion which is no Christian should ever bother with adequate security or self-defense because they cannot suffer bodily harm as a genuine Christian in God's will according to His Word.

You even said they could go into dangerous areas without concern as long as they are there for Christian purpose and will never suffer bodily harm; even though I just gave you a real world example where exactly someone like that engaging in the Christian ministry God led him into for such an area was murdered anyways.

Another example, there's a lady I know from a small group fellowship that lives about ten miles from me. She's a strong faith-filled Christian who knows God's Word inside and out and is a prayer warrior and genuine to the core. So was her daughter. Her daughter was murdered on her apartment doorstep in a drive by shooting while witnessing to female gangbangers that had come to hear the Gospel.

You said:

"The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him and delivers them" and "Because you have made the Lord your dwelling... no harm will befall you" mean just what they say, and they are true in the lives of both those who experience God's protection from harm and those who don't."

...those who don't. So how does no harm befall someone that harm befalls? <--I'd really like to know the answer to that question.

When people are murdered while relying on God's protection from harm; how do you rationalize that in your own head given your position?

So far, it appears that you don't know which is OK. Blowing smoke though is not OK. When you make illogical assertions and then don't properly defend them it can affect other people. Ignorance puts people at risk. It's one thing to delude yourself that you're invulnerable because you're such a great Christian, but it's an entirely other thing when you delude others that they are too.

Guess what? I actually know the answer to the puzzle but I want to see if you can figure it out. Here's a hint, there's no such thing as "encampment invulnerability theology." Moral theologians wouldn't have to treat martyrdom as the chief act of the virtue of fortitude if it actually existed.

I'd like to answer your questions, but they aren't really questions, so I can't answer them. But I can point you to where you can find answers: the Bible. There's so much that God wants to reveal to people, but when we pretend to already know everything, He can't tell us much. The evidence that we think we know is that we don't know (a riddle but not meant to be); when we acknowledge that we don't know, which we rarely do in this 'age of knowledge' where we think we know but don't know, then God will reveal when we ask which will make us eerily smarter than everyone else who doesn't know but pretends to know. The evidence will be that we don't have to try in order to know and that knowing won't be anything special to us. But those who think they know don't get it, because knowing is very important to them. Those who do know know because their focus is on more important things (e.g. wisdom).

All that makes sense except to those to whom knowing is everything. If you truly want to know the truth for the right reason and not to add more knowledge/information to your learning, you will ask God the questions you're asking me, and He will tell you. I've met many Christians who ask questions on questions and still don't know; but I'm a Christian like them and have received many of the answers they haven't. When I asked God about this, He explained why some ask and don't receive, seek and don't find, knock and have no doors open to them. If there's anything that God always gives, anything you always get in answer to prayer when you ask, it is wisdom: "If ANY man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives liberally to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him" (Jas. 1:5). I get it when I ask; but you have to get it for yourself or it won't make sense to you when you get it from someone else... because wisdom is not knowledge; knowledge can come from anywhere, but wisdom comes only from God.

 

[Deadtosin]

I'd like to answer your questions, but they aren't really questions, so I can't answer them. But I can point you to where you can find answers: the Bible. There's so much that God wants to reveal to people, but when we pretend to already know everything, He can't tell us much. The evidence that we think we know is that we don't know (a riddle but not meant to be); when we acknowledge that we don't know, which we rarely do in this 'age of knowledge' where we think we know but don't know, then God will reveal when we ask which will make us eerily smarter than everyone else who doesn't know but pretends to know. The evidence will be that we don't have to try in order to know and that knowing won't be anything special to us. But those who think they know don't get it, because knowing is very important to them. Those who do know know because their focus is on more important things (e.g. wisdom).

All that makes sense except to those to whom knowing is everything. If you truly want to know the truth for the right reason and not to add more knowledge/information to your learning, you will ask God the questions you're asking me, and He will tell you. I've met many Christians who ask questions on questions and still don't know; but I'm a Christian like them and have received many of the answers they haven't. When I asked God about this, He explained why some ask and don't receive, seek and don't find, knock and have no doors open to them. If there's anything that God always gives, anything you always get in answer to prayer when you ask, it is wisdom: "If ANY man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives liberally to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him" (Jas. 1:5). I get it when I ask; but you have to get it for yourself or it won't make sense to you when you get it from someone else... because wisdom is not knowledge; knowledge can come from anywhere, but wisdom comes only from God.

I really enjoyed your whole post but I failed to relate it to Ageofknowledge's statements.

 

[Deadtosin]

Maybe this will help someone and maybe it won't

When I was approaching the "supposed serial killers" who were in the right place, at the right time in a vehicle that matched the description was in the shadows, running silently facing a well lit empty street (waiting for prey) As I approached the vehicle i did not have any thought as to what I would do. I was just moving. I was here for God, I am a vessel, let it unfold they way God would have it unfold (obviously God had plans because He had me come up directly behind them from the dark. Not nightblind in the street ahead.

My point is that to REALLY trust God in the moment, when He is really guiding you. There should be no preconceived notions. When I am there I am simply willing. Whatever unfolds will unfold. That night my cousin had been bait (I don't look like a good target-he insisted to go along) Anyway, after he passed they hit their lights, threw it into gear and were about to go for him, when I was 6 feet from the passenger door and closing at a fast long strided walk. I will never know what I would have done had they not moved. I never had a single thought. I was only moving. The car leaped forward and it took off toward the well lt T. I kept the same stride and changed directions to cross the street toward my cousin to the left. Instead of going left or right they did a tire squealing uturn. I was still about 6 feet into the road and at the last moment they swerved hard to hit me. Without a thought in my head I responded by turning sharply to face the vehicle. The driver slammed on his breaks and I stood there in the headlights. I could see the passengers face clearly. His face read like "how did this happen?" mouth open, eyes large. I memorized the license plate and the tires turned and they drove slowly around me and I heard them continually accelerate deep into the darkness. The killings stopped.

Point? I was willing to do whatever God had me do with however the situation would unfold. I think that's how God desires us.

 

[Deadtosin]

However, let me add. Had they shown me beyond any doubt that they were indeed the killers and intended to kill me or my cousin. HAD they actually kept going to hit me. I then would have known they were the killers and I would have gone in through the window and destroyed them. Under no circumstance would the killers be here, trying to kill someone and leave in to the night to do it again. I knew that truth deep in my heart from the beginning.

 

[Deadtosin]

Gods plan was brilliant however lol. They had the perfect prey, at the perfect place and were hunted!- and they knew it. Never again could they have ANY scenario (even the best) for killing and not still be looking over their shoulder. Awesome indeed!

Good-bye years of confidence

 

[DavidLOVESsnow]

Enough. There is no need to argue.

 

[Deadtosin]

who's arguing?