Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!

[PlainWord]

Pre-tribulation rapture of the Church (1 Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

These passages are unrelated Linda. They are separated by 1,000 years. Death is the LAST ENEMY Christ defeats, not the FIRST. If you look at the 1 Cor 15 passage you will see no mention of Jesus, of His return, of Angels, of any gathering, no mention of judgment or any other event to tie it to Pre-Trib, Trib or even post Trib. It is only a transformation passage, nothing else. So why is it connected to Pre-Trib? The only reason is to bolster the Doctrine. Such an idea of living people being transformed at the return of Christ conflicts with this:

Heb 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

We all die once Linda. Then comes the judgment. It says Christ will appear a second time, not a second and third time!! Right here in the same sentence we are told we die once and to those who wait He will appear a second time for salvation. This is the same salvation the Jews receive when Christ returns that we discussed above.

1 Cor 15:51 is discussing the end of the millennium. The Kingdom of God is the final eternal state. Before this all living flesh must die as corruptible flesh cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

The only exception are for those living at the very end. They will be transformed. Satan is let loose near the end of the 1,000 years to deceive again. He cannot deceive the incorruptible, right?

Think about it. There are no dead believers with spiritual bodies in heaven right now, just souls. So why would there be translated bodies in the current existing heaven for 7 years? Why bother bringing the dead saints down before the Tribulation to give them spiritual bodies only to return them to heaven again for 7 years only to then return them to earth again years later? It makes absolutely no sense. It is far more logical for the saints who come back with Jesus to receive their new bodies then stay on earth to reign with Him then to leave and come back 7 years later.

 

[PlainWord]

There is NO post-tribulation rapture of the Church.

I believe most of the church is wiped out during the Tribulation, most likely very early into it. I believe the Great Multitude in heaven Rev 7 is comprised of most of the church today. All that's left are the 144K and the small group of saints not deceived by Satan. "ALIVE AND REMAINING" that is who gets raptured after Christ returns after the Tribulation. This is a very long topic Linda but I've shared much of it with you before.

 

[PlainWord]

Second Coming is for Israel and there will be signs during the Tribulation period, of His coming TO earth. (Zechariah 14:4)

Can you show me a clear teaching of this - that it is only Israel who is left?

You quoted Zech 14.

Let me quote Zech 13:

8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: 9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "

Can we agree, 2/3 of Israel are cut off and die and 1/3 is saved?

If we agree on this what happens to the 2% of Israel who are Christians today? We know that much much more of Israel wakes up and realizes they missed the messiah before the end comes (Valley of dry bones, Ezek 37). How are the raptured believing Jews accounted for here Linda?

Why is the church not also tested Linda? Why do they get a free pass from Satan's Great Deception of the Tribulation?

2,000 years of Jewish History. Christ comes and is rejected

2,000 years of Church history. No test????

 

[Linda70]

Not exactly Linda. Neither are my views. Israel and the Church are two separate entities. However, they will become ONE. Remember, we (the Gentile Church) are grafted in with them (THE JEWS). It isn't the other way around.

The Church (of which the majority of members are Gentile) is the Body of Christ composed of SAVED JEWS and saved Gentiles. The Church is ONE BODY (Ephesians 4:4). The Church is not grafted in with the Jews. While the majority of national Israel remains in unbelief outside the place of covenant blessing, many Gentiles, who originally were not in that place of blessing are being grafted into it by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Romans 11:17-19). These saved Gentiles are members of the Church. They are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in the sense that they partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the remnant of Israelite members of the Church. So national Israel and the Church are two separate entities.

Romans 11:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

All that remains of Israel after Jacob's Trouble will be saved. ALL MEANS ALL.

In Zechariah 13:8-9 it says that 2/3 of Israel will be "cut off" and the 1/3 will be brought through the fire and be refined as silver and tried as gold.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This is the saved remnant of national Israel which will be saved and will enter into the Millennial Kingdom....this remnant is NOT grafted into the Church. The Church/Body of Christ will have been completed at the Rapture before the beginning of the Tribulation. (the fulness of the Gentiles will have "come in" at that point - Romans 11:25)

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

As for the church, it is a much longer topic which needs to start with defining the church. What and who make up the church in your mind Linda?

The Bible defines who and/or what the Church is....it's not IN MY MIND. First of all, the Church did not exist in Old Testament times. The Church did not come into existence until the day of Pentecost (Acts 2).

Is it all denominations or is it those who believe Jesus is the son of God and died on the cross?

Denominations don't even factor into what and/or who comprises the Church/Body of Christ. The Church consists of a distinctive group of saints (Jews and Gentiles) who are born again and baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Is the church comprised of all those who are saved???

The Church consists only of those saved people who live between the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and the Rapture of the Church from the earth. Saints who died before the Day of Pentecost and people who become saved after the Rapture of the Church are never part of the Church.

If all those who are saved, we are taught all of Israel will be saved in the end. So, think carefully before you answer.

Read back in Zechariah 13:8-9 and then YOU think carefully---what part of national Israel is the saved remnant? That saved remnant "shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zechariah 12:10b) As a result of their repentance and salvation, national Israel will be placed back into the place of covenant blessing, and they will enter FULLY into the New Covenant relationship with God, and all the promises (spiritual, material, and national) of that covenant will be fulfilled completely with that nation. The saved remnant of national Israel will not become part of the Church and will remain as a separate entity from the Church.

 

[Linda70]

Can you show me a clear teaching of this - that it is only Israel who is left?

You quoted Zech 14.

Let me quote Zech 13:

8 And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: 9 I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' "

Can we agree, 2/3 of Israel are cut off and die and 1/3 is saved?

If we agree on this what happens to the 2% of Israel who are Christians today? We know that much much more of Israel wakes up and realizes they missed the messiah before the end comes (Valley of dry bones, Ezek 37). How are the raptured believing Jews accounted for here Linda?

Why is the church not also tested Linda? Why do they get a free pass from Satan's Great Deception of the Tribulation?

2,000 years of Jewish History. Christ comes and is rejected

2,000 years of Church history. No test????

I pretty much covered all this in my previous post (#84). The Church is being tested now. What "free pass" are you speaking of? Have you ever read Fox's Book of Martyrs? Here in the United States, Christendom really has no clue what persecution is. There are people all over the world who are dying for their faith....and you say "no test"? In addition, if you hadn't noticed that anti-semitism and anti-Israel propaganda is getting worse. The Holocaust was horrible, but something worse is coming very shortly. We haven't seen the worst yet.

The Tribulation isn't Satan's Great Deception...it's God's wrath and judgment poured out on Israel and the Christ-rejecting world. The antichrist (the son of perdition) will deceive the world into believing that he is the Christ. Many will believe his lie, take his mark and end up in the lake of fire for eternity.

The 2% of Israel today who are Christians are members of the Church and will be raptured with the rest of the Church age saints from Pentecost until the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. I'm not sure as to what you mean by this statement: "How are the raptured believing Jews accounted for here Linda?"

The 7 year Tribulation period is the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7) aka the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) and the main focus will be on the nation of Israel - not the Church. The Holy Spirit which indwells every Christian/member of the Body of Christ is restraining the evil that will soon break loose after the Church is gone from this earth.

 

[Stephen63]

Where did I say that I was trying to make something "work"? I asked you those questions for a purpose and all you did was accuse me of putting the ball back in your court. My purpose in asking you those questions was to find out exactly where you stand about the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the tribulation.
Are you saying that the OT saints are not saved because they are not made Sons of God in their covenant? Which covenant? “We were” what? You are not very clear. Are you saying that the Church is Israel and the New Covenant is fulfilled in the Church? You are unclear here.

The Scriptures you posted (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:9-14) do not answer my question about the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation. I am not looking for Scriptures for the “sealing/indwelling of the Holy Spirit during the Church age.

Again, do you believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation will remain the same as it is during this present dispensation of the Church/grace? If your answer is yes, please give Scripture reference for this belief.
I didn’t say that the Tribulation saints (or any “saint”) was saved in a different way. Everyone is saved by grace through faith in all dispensations. The "indwelling and sealing" of the Holy Spirit during this present dispensation of the Church is UNIQUE to the Church age. What I'm trying to explain is that the MINISTRY of the Holy Spirit will function differently during the Tribulation.

The Scriptures you provided do not answer my question about the Tribulation saints. The Church saints are not the Tribulation saints. These are two different groups of people.

They are saints, born again under the New Covenant.

Is there ANOTHER COVENANT TO COME? Same Covenant, By grace thru faith, adopted by the Holy Ghost.

Acts 2:16-21 (KJV) [SUP]16 [/SUP]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [SUP]18 [/SUP]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [SUP]19 [/SUP]And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [SUP]20[/SUP]The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: [SUP]21 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Saved the same way, because NO OTHER WAY IS WRITTEN:

Acts 4:12 (KJV) [SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
[HR][/HR]Romans 10:13 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 8:10-17 (NASB) [SUP]10 [/SUP]If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— [SUP]13 [/SUP]for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

THIS is the only way the New Covenant works......it's not changed by dispensations. It stands in forced until we are judged in the end. All NT saints, regardless of the dispensation, have the Holy Spirit in them or they are not saved at all. That's God's word, not mine. You still haven't given your scriptures to prove otherwise.

 

[Linda70]

Stephen63,

In all your diatribe against me, you still haven't answered my question. I gave Scriptures to show the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation period, but you still continue to ignore everything I said and posted...even that portion of Thomas Ice's article with the Scripture in it. Here's the link again:

Pre-Trib Research Center -

This discussion is over.

 

[Stephen63]

Stephen63,

In all your diatribe against me, you still haven't answered my question. I gave Scriptures to show the ministry of the Holy Spirit during the Tribulation period, but you still continue to ignore everything I said and posted...even that portion of Thomas Ice's article with the Scripture in it. Here's the link again:

Pre-Trib Research Center -

This discussion is over.

I expected as much.

 

[konroh]

It's not a discussion when one side refuses to interact with the evidence of the other side. Linda70, well done.

What's amazing is that Jesus clearly says to look for the signs of His coming. But He also says no man knows the day or the hour. Could it be because there are two comings? One is expected, one is a surprise.

 

[Sinnner]

To all my Brothers and Sisters in Christ:

I beg you to stay true to the Word and not listen to the Traditions of Men (Pre-Trib Rapture). Christ was specifically asked by His disciples - His best friends - the Fathers of His Church - to be told the signs of the end. We have 3 accounts of Jesus lesson. God is not the author of confusion. Thus we are told clearly when Christ will return and the events that lead up to it. I want everyone to see the question that was posed. Here is the million dollar question.

Mat 24:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Pay close attention to Jesus' answer. The very first words out of His mouth were warnings NOT TO BE DECEIVED. Why?? Because many will be deceived.

Mark 13:

5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you.

It should be clear that NOT BEING DECEIVED is the KEY FOCAL POINT in Christ's lesson. If Christ were to return before AntiChrist there would be no need for the warning.
Christ then immediately jumps to the times before the end and discusses World War I, WWII, then all the small so-called wars (Rumors of Wars) between WWII and the coming nuclear WWIII. Christ then discusses the various earthquakes that we have been seeing and the famines...

Christ then gives a HUGE sign of the end.

10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Where are we in this? This from the official site of Wycliffe:
2025
Wycliffe's goal for having a language project started in every heart language still needing one around the world.



E sign of the end.Of course we already have satellite TV evangelism and internet reaching the World so perhaps this big event Christ discusses is already fulfilled.

Jesus then discusses some pretty severe persecution and Tribulation that His Believers will be enduring leading up to the AntiChrist. The below verses are strong evidence that nowhere in the Bible are we taught that the End Time's Church is to escape Tribulation when we've seen 2,000 years of promised tribulation for the church and Christ's own Words telling us that His church - which many consider the Body of Christ - being persecuted right up to the end.

9 But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.

11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.

13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
So leading up to the appearance of the Abomination, the Church is under severe persecution!! Where is the rapture? It is so clear from the context; there is no sparing the Church from tribulation. Now we have the Abomination shown and Christ has not breathed one word of any so-called Rapture!!!! In fact, Christ is telling us we the church are here being persecuted!!!! Christ never reverses this doctrine of Tribulation and persecution of the Church and believers. Now hear comes the deception.

14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

The above is where the Great Rapture deception takes place. The below verse is key.

17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

This verse 17 has nothing to do with pregnant women. There is no mention of the word "women" or "mother." This is a spiritual pregnancy Christ is discussing here. Pregnant and nursing Satan's lies. Real Babies are gifts from God, they are NEVER a curse. John uses the same analogy to describe the 144,000 as virgins. Throughout the Bible this symbolism of Harlotry is used when describing those who are following false Christs and false doctrines. I firmly believe this passage deals with those who are not only believing (pregnant) with Satan's Rapture doctrine but also those nursing (feeding or preaching) it. Why? Because Satan has you deceived. So, Woe to those who have been deceived.
Now we are into the Great Tribulation. God's chosen Elect are still on earth. Christ gives the below lesson.

19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it.

22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
We see God has to shorten Satan's Great Tribulation which is AKA the heavy persecution of Believers. Christ doesn't say a word about His Wrath!! He doesn't utter a sound about any mountains being thrown into the sea or blood and fire being cast to earth or wormwood making waters bitter, or sun being struck. The Great Tribulation is ALL ABOUT SATAN's DECEPTION. THUS THE CHURCH HAS TO BE HERE. There can be no deception if nobody but unbelievers are here as they are already by definition deceived.

Now comes the key verse that blows the Pre-Trib doctrine completely out of the water.

23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.

Christ has told us ALL THINGS. He didn't stutter. He didn't leave anything out. An earlier rapture return would have been the biggest and most visible sign of the end times that the disciples specifically asked about. Yet, Christ doesn't utter a word about any other return except this one:

24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Thus the timing is clear - it is immediately after the Tribulation. If there was an additional rapture return we would have been clearly taught and not contrived from multiple disjointed verses.

[h=4]1 Corinthians 14:33 NKJV[/h] For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

This is very clear. Good job. I grew up believing pre-trib as you and as recent as 6 months ago I still believed it. But I was taught it, I did not derive it from scripture. You have to put your pride aside and accept what the scriptures clearly teach and it clearly teaches post trib. I want to believe a pre-trib, it sounds sweet but unfortunately it's not true. Anyway isn't it better to be safe than sorry or deceived. I've come to realize when Jesus says "be not deceived" to pay really close attention to what is said after that.

 

[PlainWord]

This is very clear. Good job. I grew up believing pre-trib as you and as recent as 6 months ago I still believed it. But I was taught it, I did not derive it from scripture. You have to put your pride aside and accept what the scriptures clearly teach and it clearly teaches post trib. I want to believe a pre-trib, it sounds sweet but unfortunately it's not true. Anyway isn't it better to be safe than sorry or deceived. I've come to realize when Jesus says "be not deceived" to pay really close attention to what is said after that.

Good for you dear friend. It is so hard to break the spell of deception of Satan's lies concerning this Rapture Doctrine. You did the right thing - you actually studied the Word and did not give into the teachings and traditions of men.

We (the Saints) have the same choice to make that the Jews during Christ's time had to make and that is either listen to their religious leaders of their day (Leaven of the Pharisees) or listen to Jesus. Jesus clearly tells us when He returns. He did not stutter and He did not omit anything. He does not deceive.

Now that your eyes are opened, you will be able to withstand on the Evil Day. You will not be overcome as so many will. God Bless you!! Keep the "patience and faith" dear friend in Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

The Scriptures you provided do not answer my question about the Tribulation saints. The Church saints are not the Tribulation saints. These are two different groups of people.

Dear Linda,

I know this was not addressed to me but I have to stop you here and ask you to please show me any verse which establishes a clear delineation between a "Saint" and a "Tribulation Saint."

I submit to you, your Rapture Doctrine is the only thing that forces this distinction. You will find NO PASSAGE where any author of the Bible teaches a distinction.

This verse from Rev 13 is not discussing "Tribulation Saints" it is discussing deceived Saints, saints who are here on earth right now!!!

7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

 

[PlainWord]

The Tribulation isn't Satan's Great Deception...it's God's wrath and judgment poured out on Israel and the Christ-rejecting world.

Linda, I think it is this misunderstanding that you and many others have that cause you to believe the Rapture lie. God's Wrath is NOT FOUND during the Great Tribulation. God's wrath comes AFTER it!! God's wrath comes in response to the tribulation Satan puts believers through. Do a word search for "Tribulation" here.

tribulation - Online Bible Study Tools | page 1

You will find 22 uses of the word "Tribulation" in the NT. 21 of the 22 uses the word ALWAYS refers to persecution of BELIEVERS and NOT THE WRATH OF GOD. The only time where "Tribulation" is used where God's wrath is involved is 1 Thes 1:6 in which God is repaying the Tribulations the Saints have endured during the Great Tribulation.

Now read carefully everything Jesus describes that happens during the Great Tribulation. It is all about Satanic deception with NOT A WORD about His wrath or God's wrath. I have put in bold the start and finish of the Tribulation so that you can more clearly see.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...

Take a piece of paper and write down every event Jesus describes in these verses and see what you have. Don't let Revelation throw you as it does not define a starting or ending point for the Tribulation. Revelation does not tell you that the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are all part of it. Let Jesus tell you what is happening here!! He does a great job explaining it.

You have the gathering for Armageddon in verse 28 but no wrath. Christ returns for Armageddon to save His People. Now here Christ comes as described in Rev 19:

16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great." 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Do you see the connection with the birds in both passages???? This is Armageddon and this is when Christ returns.

This is when Christ returns:

Rev 1:

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

This is when Christ returns:

Mat 24:

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is when Christ returns:

1 Thes 4-5:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

This is when Christ returns:

2 Thes 1:

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

This is when Christ returns:

Acts 1:

11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

This is when Christ returns:

Rev 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

This is when Christ returns:

Heb 9:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

This is when Christ returns:

Zech 14:

1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.


This is when Christ returns:

Joel 2:

1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations.


His wrath comes when He comes. He gathers His remnant and they fight with Him along with the Saints He has brought from heaven. ALL ACCOUNTS describe the same event. NOWHERE ARE WE TOLD THERE ARE TWO SEPARATE RETURNS OR EVENTS. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME EVENT!!!

 

[PlainWord]

Linda,

The Church (of which the majority of members are Gentile) is the Body of Christ composed of SAVED JEWS and saved Gentiles. The Church is ONE BODY (Ephesians 4:4). The Church is not grafted in with the Jews. While the majority of national Israel remains in unbelief outside the place of covenant blessing, many Gentiles, who originally were not in that place of blessing are being grafted into it by the grace of God through faith in Christ (Romans 11:17-19). These saved Gentiles are members of the Church. They are grafted into the place of covenant blessing in the sense that they partake of the spiritual blessings of the New Covenant, as do the remnant of Israelite members of the Church. So national Israel and the Church are two separate entities.

I am not sure what we are arguing about here. I said the Church and Israel are two separate entities. You seem to be saying that the Church is not grafted in, just the Gentile believers are grafted in. Seems to me, Gentile believers who you acknowledge make up most of the church being grafted in is the same as saying the Church is grafted in. I don't see much of a distinction thus not much of an argument. So, not sure what your point is or how this would prove or disprove a Pre-Trib Rapture?

My point is, Salvation was first for the Jew then for the Gentiles. Paul says as much in Romans 1:

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

We Gentile believers are grafted in with the Jews who remain God's Chosen People. I do not subscribe to Replacement Theology - perhaps you do?

In the same passage in Romans 11, Paul teaches us, the Gentile believers, not to become haughty or we can be ungrafted. Think about all the persecution the "Church" has done to God's People over the centuries. You had the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and even Hitler thought He was doing God's work by killing Jews and during the Holocaust, the Roman Catholic church sat on their hands afraid of their own existence.

In the end, the very end, the saved will all be in heaven and the Gates of Heaven are not named after Churches or Church leaders, they are named after the 12 Tribes of Israel.

 

[PlainWord]

This is the saved remnant of national Israel which will be saved and will enter into the Millennial Kingdom....this remnant is NOT grafted into the Church. The Church/Body of Christ will have been completed at the Rapture before the beginning of the Tribulation. (the fulness of the Gentiles will have "come in" at that point - Romans 11:25)

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Who gets grafted into whom? Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the other way around. I agree, the remnant is not grafted into the church.

Speaking of remnant - do you mean this remnant???

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't want to get too sidetracked in this "Grafting" subject because it deflects from the topic of this thread and that is the Rapture. I guess it is an important topic for Pre-Tribbers because they must show 2 separate groups (the Church and Israel) and thus 2 separate outcomes. The Pre-Tribber teaches "Peace and Safety" for them but utter destruction for God's Chosen People. This is a "haughty" attitude IMO.

No wonder Israel has a low opinion of the church. We've been blaming them for the crucifixion of Christ for the past 2,000 years. We've been persecuting and killing them by the millions and now we are telling them that we the church are going to fly away to heaven while they stay here and get abused some more.

I believe God teaches unity for His people - Church and Israel. He brings us together - ONE OLIVE TREE. God does not divide and does not teach disunity as the Pre-Tribber out of necessity must.

 

[PlainWord]

I want to make a point about the Church being the Body of Christ. Time after time I hear the Pre-Tribber argue that God would NEVER subject the Church, the Body of Christ, to the Horrors of the Great Tribulation. Such a thought is impossible for the Pre-Tribber to accept. I wonder, has any Pre-Tribber considered what happened to the actual body of Christ when He was on earth?

These same Pre-Tribbers have no problem with God subjecting His People Israel to these horrors though. Why? Because they did not recognize Christ when He came 2,000 years ago. Now what if the Church is deceived into thinking Satan is Christ? Do they then still feel special like they should get a pass from the Testing that Satan is bringing?

 

[PlainWord]

The 2% of Israel today who are Christians are members of the Church and will be raptured with the rest of the Church age saints from Pentecost until the Church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. I'm not sure as to what you mean by this statement: "How are the raptured believing Jews accounted for here Linda?"

Do Believing Jews stop from being Jews??? Or are Christian Jews still Jews and part of National Israel???

You seem to be saying that a Believing Jew becomes part of the Church and therefore Raptured. So you seem to imply that the Believing Jew becomes grafted into the church. Do you see the problem you create with this notion?? I mean if you believe in Pre-Trib you have to take the approach that the Believing Jew is grafted in with the Church however, this notion totally conflicts with the teachings of Paul in Romans 11. We are grafted in with the Jews, not the other way around.

If you take the approach that Believing Jews are still part of National Israel then they are not accounted for in Zech 13. Zechariah clearly teaches that 66.67% of Israel will be cut off and killed and that 33.33% are brought through and saved. Zechariah does not account for the 2% that are saved and thus raptured.

 

[Sinnner]

Most people do not see the importance of getting this right and how a pretribulation belief leaves you open to the deception of the coming of a false Christ or loosing faith cause He doesn't come when someone taught you He was coming.

 

[PlainWord]

WHOA LINDA WAIT A MINUTE!!!

The 7 year Tribulation period is the "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7) aka the 70th week of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27) and the main focus will be on the nation of Israel - not the Church. The Holy Spirit which indwells every Christian/member of the Body of Christ is restraining the evil that will soon break loose after the Church is gone from this earth.

Did you really just say this in red? Earlier and consistently you have been saying that the Great Tribulation is the WRATH OF GOD. You said it here too:

The Tribulation isn't Satan's Great Deception...it's God's wrath and judgment poured out on Israel and the Christ-rejecting world.

So you are saying that God's Wrath is Satan's ANTICHRIST sent to deceive Israel, the one who leads Satan's Armies which we know to be comprised of the God hating and disbelieving countries of Russia, Iran, Turkey, Sudan, Libya etc? I know God allows everything that happens including the existence of Satan but really??? Do you really believe the AntiChrist and His evil forces are working for God? If they are doing God's work why does God send His Son Jesus to stop and defeat it?? Why then does God send them all to HELL if they are working for Him????

See I guess this is where we differ. I always attributed Evil and evil works to Satan and that God opposes such evil and defeats such evil when He has had enough of it. Just where do you see Satan's wrath fitting into all of this? Before the Tribulation, during or after????

Revelation 12:12 NKJV

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

Revelation 14:8 NKJV

And another angel followed, saying, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."


Revelation 18:3 NKJV

For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury."

God repays Satan for the Tribulation he (SATAN) has brought on the earth and against HIS BELIEVERS and PEOPLE.

6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.

God repays Satan and his beasts DOUBLE. The Bowls are the Wrath of God and they come AFTER the Tribulation just before, during and after Christ returns.

Let me show you something Linda. This is really cool.

We know God is behind the Bowls and that the Bowls are the Wrath of God from this verse in Rev 16:

1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."

See if you can see GOD repaying Double here???

Trumpet #2 (SATAN'S WRATH):

the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. And a third of the living creatures in the sea died,

Bowl #2 (GOD'S WRATH in response):

Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

So Satan turns 1/3 of the sea to blood and 1/3 in the sea die. After 1/3 are effected, how much is left???

2/3 right? 2/3rd is also everything that is left. 2/3 is twice or double the 1/3 Satan affected.

Let's look at the next trumpet and corresponding Bowl.

Trumpet #3 (Satan's wrath):

Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.

Bowl #3 (God's Wrath in response to Satan):
4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due."
Here again, Satan affects 1/3 of the rivers and living waters.

God effects the remaining 2/3 or double what Satan did.

Trumpet #4 (Satan's wrath):

2 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

Bowl #4 (God's wrath in Response):

8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat,

Thus we see Satan dimmed the sun, moon and stars by 1/3. This symbolizes the LIGHT. Satan takes away 1/3 of the Light.

Matthew 5:14 NKJV

You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Who or what is represented by LIGHT???? Christ yes but who is the LIGHT on earth now Linda? We are. We are the salt and the LIGHT. What does Satan do??? SATAN takes us away, Not some Rapture.


What does God do in response???

8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues;

2 Thessalonians 2:8 NKJV

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.




You see Linda, SATAN is behind the Rapture doctrine. Jesus, Paul and now John warns us of Satanic deception. John is saying that Satan removes 1/3 of the LIGHT. We are the LIGHT. Thus 1/3 of all Christians will be removed not by God but by Satan. 1/3 will be killed and thus comprise the Great Multitude in heaven seen hungry, thirsty, ashamed and crying.