What does it mean that we are saved by grace alone?

[homwardbound]

according to the title on this thread, it is incorrect

we are not saved by grace alone


there is no Bible text that says that

it is a twisting of the Bible

one of the 12 twisting grace verses that if used together make people think
they can keep right on sinning and still go to heaven

this is not Biblical and is warned about by Paul and James

Who is promoting sin here, anyone, saying it is okay go ahead and sin, since we are forgiven, as the Corinthians did and Paul wrote to them concerning this taking God's grace for granted?
What did Paul say in a different passage?

Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Did the Corinthians come to understand and live this truth? being forgiven was not for to take for granted? And so they showed compassion one for the other. turned to a Godly sorrow from the worldly one they had
So have we done this? Or are we faking and acting it out, playing Church, saying we are and know we are not?

 

[homwardbound]

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

this is true

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;


this is tru also

1 + 1 = 2

so saying by grace alone is untrue

Yet Father and Son that are 2 are still one in Spirit and truth. and when another joins in on the praise and worship team, they are also yet another addition to the flock, but still all one in Spirit and truth
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[homwardbound]

and what is FAITH?
FAith is believing every word in the Bible so much that you do all of it

that is what faith is

so by grace, following all the bible

that is how you are saved.

grace comes only by the blood of Jesus paid for our sins

so salvation is through Jesus blood alone by his grace THROUGH BIBLE STUDY BELIEFE AND FOLLOWING JESUS WORD

that is the true gospel;

FAITH without Jesus works in you is dead

so

by grace
through faith
with works of Jesus

there is sanctification

No matter what way it is sliced, diced and or cubed Brother we all that believe are one in Spirit and truth yet many, just as our physical bodies are many parts that make up one body

 

[homwardbound]

Actually sir, I wasn't agreeing with you, as it was you who misunderstood what I was saying.
You asked if repentance was changing from doubt to believing, and I said that it wasn't, and that I was just talking about a particular verse in the bible as to what it was saying. This is just one thing we can repent of, but it is not what repentance is. You can repent or turn from just about anything.

"No sir. Repent means to be sorry for and to turn the other way from, whatever you are sorry for. I was just responding to the scripture verse that was being used.
The scripture that was used was, "Repent ye, and believe the Gospel' (Mark 1.15).
It means, to turn from doubting the gospel to believing it. It is not saying to repent of your dead works and believe the gospel. The problem with repentance to receive salvation, is that it would negate or supersede all the other verses that say contrary."

Okay then, I see me not saying differently from my view to the center where Christ is the center. Just being stated different yet it is the same, lord who went to the cross for us all, and gave the message of reconciliation to his disciples to give to us and receive the same Holy Spirit that led them that as well led Christ
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[newbirth]

Agreed, and so how is that accomplished or is it already in Christ accomplished, once one steps out of Adam and into Christ?
Love is the greatest of all to all, from God through Son right?

It means you have to do it For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Is your serving Christ already accomplished in Christ once you step out of Adam into Christ? The scripture is not saying that.
The kingdom of God is righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. And who in these things serve Christ is acceptable to God and approved of men.Serve God in righteousness, serve God in peace, and serve God in the Holy Ghost
Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
we have to follow after these things brother

 

[newbirth]

By Faith or self works?

Let God be the judge of that brother, what we have to do is we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. So we can get what we ask for.

 

[newbirth]

No matter what way it is sliced, diced and or cubed Brother we all that believe are one in Spirit and truth yet many, just as our physical bodies are many parts that make up one body

not this time bro we may be under the same umbrella but not same spirit and truth ...some believe ES I don't some are of OSAS I am not Others follow trinity not me If it is not in line with scripture I am not a part of it. Christ said let the wheat and the tares grow together that is good enough for me.Therefore as much as it is in me I judge no man.

 

[Skinski7]

Wha does "grace alone by faith" mean? Why do we have to repent if we are saved by grace? Or is grace referred to as God giving is Jesus?

The Bible doesn't teach grace "alone" anywhere. What it does teach is that we are saved by "grace through faith" apart from works.

Faith itself is a work because it is the active dynamic of wholehearted submission to God. Thus it is through this active dynamic that the grace of God is made effectual in purifying the heart.

The reason we have to repent is because repentance is the change from being in disobedience/rebellion to God to obedience/submission to God. Without repentance the grace of God cannot be effectual in bringing about a genuine inward transformation.

Being saved "not of works" is presented within the context of outward actions produced from following rules and regulation absent of wholehearted submission to God. Thus a human being can elect not to murder and steal but if they don't have an inward heart of love it is all vanity. The love of God is shed abroad in the hearts of men when those men submit to the will of God having forsaken rebellion.

Does that make sense?

 

[Skinski7]

Adding to my last post.

The most common deception at work today in the minds of many is the abstract view of salvation. Due to the development of Church doctrines through Catholicism and the Reformation an incorrect view of salvation is generally taught.

It is commonly held that reconciliation to God is premised on Jesus dying as a form of judicial substitute which tenders a payment for a debt owed. With the debt being paid it is henceforth not due anymore. This view is often termed "Penal Substitution" and is the most common view of the purpose of the death of Christ today. It was borne out of the Reformation as a development of the Satisfaction theory which was first developed in the 11th century.

This "Penal Substitution" doctrine serves to twist the mission of Jesus Christ from being perceived as a "rescue" to instead being a "payment substitution."

The early church viewed the death of Christ as effecting a release from a literal bondage of sin, a bondage which wrought the certainty of death (eternal death). God cannot be reconciled to a rebel and due to this the rebellion has to cease. It is through the cross that the heart of the rebel is terminated and replaced with the heart of a servant thus making it possible for reconciliation to take place between a sinner and God.

It is the sinner that has to change not God for reconcilation to take place. God does not have to reconcile Himself to man, it is man that has to reconcile himself to God. God has provided the means through Jesus Christ who was offered on our behalf for all humanity. The sins of the whole world were taken away by this sacrifice and thus the door is open for redemption.

If any sinner will approach God in all sincerity with a true heart, coming clean with God, having turned from their rebellion in crucifying the old man then a new man will be raised up in Christ whom God accepts. That individual has been bought with a price from their old master of sin where the end was certain death. Thus Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. We are a new creation where all things have been made new. We may not know much but our hearts have been cleansed and we are to move forward growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

There is nothing wrong with the penal substitution view. The problem arises when you view Salvation as just one thing.

Salvation is Rescue. And its penal substitution. And its Righteousness. And its Faith. And its Peace. And its Regeneration. And its Love.

Salvation is everything we need for eternal life. All the things we understand and even the things we don't. And thus the Lord Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He provides everything we need for eternal life.

 

[Skinski7]

There is nothing wrong with the penal substitution view. The problem arises when you view Salvation as just one thing.

Salvation is Rescue. And its penal substitution. And its Righteousness. And its Faith. And its Peace. And its Regeneration. And its Love.

Salvation is everything we need for eternal life. All the things we understand and even the things we don't. And thus the Lord Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life. He provides everything we need for eternal life.

There is very much wrong with it.

It is very clearly of recent origin and was clearly not taught until a few hundred years ago. I have seen attempts trying to extrapolate the doctrine into early writings but this is only done via the method of isolating quotes out of context of early writers. None of the early writers viewed the death of Christ as a literal sin payment which fulfilled a debt owed.

It is true that there are many aspects to the death of Christ but Penal Substitution is not one of them.

The doctrine does not logically make sense if one is to peel back the rhetorical dressing. It certainly is a doctrine which can sound appealing because it allows one to view salvation in an abstract sense and serves to substantiate the view that deeds and salvation are disconnected.

Penal Substitution is one of the bedrocks of Reformed Theology and many people have invested their lives into this bedrock which is one reason so many are reluctant to be critical of it.

 

[Skinski7]

The Penal Substitution view is a bedrock of eternal security. The reason for this is because if the death of Christ truly effected a one time payment which cancelled out a sin debt which was owed, then that sin debt cannot be made due again.

There are many celebrity pastors who will make that point. Due to them wholeheartedly believing in the Penal Substitution view they are forced to explain away any teaching that allude to the necessity of holding fast in the faith to the end.

In their mind the "holding fast to the end" is a proof that an individuals sin debt was already paid. Thus they have taken the cart and put it before the horse and turned their minds to folly.

Salvation is not abstract in any sense whatsoever. Genuine salvation is a manifest reality of being cleansed from all previous rebellion through the grace of God and an abiding present reality of abiding in the will of God. There is no rebellion in this state, rebellion is the antithesis of salvation. The abiding in the will of God is absolutely voluntary on the part of a Saint and the future of their salvation is dependent on remaining in that state.

There is no such thing as "rebelling for a time" and whilst at the "same time" being in a justified state before God. People are led to believe such things only because of underlying doctrines which serve as a bedrock for such views.

The most effective deceptions are root deceptions. If a root is corrupted then everything established upon that root will be "rooted in error."

Penal Substitution is a very popular root deception.

 

[Elin]

The Penal Substitution view is a bedrock of eternal security. The reason for this is because if the death of Christ truly effected a one time payment which cancelled out a sin debt which was owed, then that sin debt cannot be made due again.

There are many celebrity pastors who will make that point. Due to them wholeheartedly believing in the Penal Substitution view they are forced to explain away any teaching that allude to the necessity of holding fast in the faith to the end.

In their mind the "holding fast to the end" is a proof that an individuals sin debt was already paid. Thus they have taken the cart and put it before the horse and turned their minds to folly.

Salvation is not abstract in any sense whatsoever. Genuine salvation is a manifest reality of being cleansed from all previous rebellion through the grace of God and an abiding present reality of abiding in the will of God. There is no rebellion in this state, rebellion is the antithesis of salvation. The abiding in the will of God is absolutely voluntary on the part of a Saint and the future of their salvation is dependent on remaining in that state.

There is no such thing as "rebelling for a time" and whilst at the "same time" being in a justified state before God. People are led to believe such things only because of underlying doctrines which serve as a bedrock for such views.

The most effective deceptions are root deceptions. If a root is corrupted then everything established upon that root will be "rooted in error."

Penal Substitution is a very popular root deception.

Only when the NT is a root deception.

God's response to sin is punishment (Isa 40:2 53:5, 11), penal (Lev 5:6, 7).

And actually, penal substitution is the bedrock of the OT sacrificial system.

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
God gave the sacrificial system in which an animal died as a substitute
for the life (soul) of the person (Lev 17:11), in atonement for his sin, which required death.

The OT sacrificial system was a pattern, shadow, copy (Heb 8:5) of the once-for-all NT
sacrifice (Heb 9:12, 26) of Christ Jesus,
who, for his own, met the demand of God's justice and saved them from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on their guilt,
by substituting for them in paying the penalty of death (Ro 3:25) which God's justice required.

You do not understand Ro 3:25-26 of the NT.
Go and learn what it means.

 

[Agricola]

It is threads like this which show just how much humans have complicated Christianity, which of course is Satans doing. It also demonstrates how many people are spiritually dead and simply religious.

Step one, acknowledge and truly believe that Jesus is Son of God who died on cross and rose from dead so that we can have eternal life in heaven with God and rejecting Jesus will result in spiritual death.

Step two. Call out to Christ and confess step 1 and say sorry for sins, pledge that you will follow and beleive.

Simple as that really isnt it. Dosnt matter what you think about his death, rescue package, final sacrifice and so on. It is what it is.

If anyone uses Once Saved Always Saved to continue to sin, well It is most likely they never knew Christ and will be thrown into hell.

People who accept Christ and get to know Christ are transformed, people are taught and re-educated, the Holy Spirit gives you that little voice and prompting when you are going to do wrong, eventually people are changed. People who keep on doing the same sin over and over without remorse or guilt can not know Christ or Holy Spirit, otherwise they would not just keep on doing it.

Here is a little video!
[video=youtube;XrLzYw6ULYw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLzYw6ULYw[/video]

 

[RedTent]

Only when the NT is a root deception.

God's response to sin is punishment (Isa 40:2 53:5, 11), penal (Lev 5:6, 7).

And actually, penal substitution is the bedrock of the OT sacrificial system.

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
God gave the sacrificial system in which an animal died as a substitute
for the life (soul) of the person (Lev 17:11), in atonement for his sin, which required death.

The OT sacrificial system was a pattern, shadow, copy (Heb 8:5) of the once-for-all NT
sacrifice (Heb 9:12, 26) of Christ Jesus,
who, for his own, met the demand of God's justice and saved them from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on their guilt,
by substituting for them in paying the penalty of death (Ro 3:25) which God's justice required.

You do not understand Ro 3:25-26 of the NT.
Go and learn what it means.

This looks like a mixed up mess of false ideas of God to me! And with scripture passages misread to back them up.

When Moses was asked to construct the ark, Moses was told there was a pattern and order he must follow. It is a spiritual order that was to have a physical symbol. The pattern is eternal and never changes. The place of the temple changed but the spiritual pattern didn't change. The High Priest changed, but the spiritual pattern of the high priest did not change.

Your creator is a God of spirit and truth, He is alpha and Omega, He is Genesis to Rev., God is eternal the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

At creation there was a pattern set up by Christ and his being crucified on earth was set up as part of that pattern in eternal time. Christ's blood was part of that pattern. Cain had been told, but he ignored what he had been told and look what happened. They used a shadow of that blood for about 4,000 years for atonement. It was a pattern.

 

[Elin]

God's response to sin is punishment (Isa 40:2 53:5, 11), penal (Lev 5:6, 7).

And actually, penal substitution is the bedrock of the OT sacrificial system.

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
God gave the sacrificial system in which an animal died as a substitute
for the life (soul) of the person (Lev 17:11), in atonement for his sin, which required death.

The OT sacrificial system was a pattern, shadow, copy (Heb 8:5) of the coming
once-for-all NT sacrifice (Heb 9:12, 26) of Christ Jesus,
who, for his own, met the demand of God's justice and saved them from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on their guilt,
by substituting for them in paying the penalty of death (Ro 3:25) which God's justice required.

You do not understand Ro 3:25-26 of the NT.
Go and learn what it means.

This looks like a mixed up mess of false ideas of God to me! And with scripture passages misread to back them up.

Each can determine for themselves if the Scriptures given illustrate the point presented.

At creation there was a pattern set up by Christ and his being crucified on earth was set up as part of that pattern in eternal time. Christ's blood was part of that pattern. Cain had been told, but he ignored what he had been told and look what happened. They used a shadow of that blood for about 4,000 years for atonement. It was a pattern.

Perhaps you should take the time required to carefully study this,
and then get back to me.

 

[Elin]

It is threads like this which show just how much humans have complicated Christianity, which of course is Satans doing. It also demonstrates how many people are spiritually dead and simply religious.

Step one, acknowledge and truly believe that Jesus is Son of God who died on cross and rose from dead so that we can have eternal life in heaven with God and rejecting Jesus will result in spiritual death.

Step two. Call out to Christ and confess step 1 and say sorry for sins, pledge that you will follow and beleive.

Simple as that really isnt it. Dosnt matter what you think about his death, rescue package, final sacrifice and so on. It is what it is.

If anyone uses Once Saved Always Saved to continue to sin, well It is most likely they never knew Christ and will be thrown into hell.

All very true.

But if God didn't want us to know more, he would not have revealed more to us.

 

[newbirth]

Only when the NT is a root deception.

God's response to sin is punishment (Isa 40:2 53:5, 11), penal (Lev 5:6, 7).

And actually, penal substitution is the bedrock of the OT sacrificial system.

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23).
God gave the sacrificial system in which an animal died as a substitute
for the life (soul) of the person (Lev 17:11), in atonement for his sin, which required death.

The OT sacrificial system was a pattern, shadow, copy (Heb 8:5) of the once-for-all NT
sacrifice (Heb 9:12, 26) of Christ Jesus,
who, for his own, met the demand of God's justice and saved them from God's wrath (Ro 5:9)
on their guilt,
by substituting for them in paying the penalty of death (Ro 3:25) which God's justice required.

You do not understand Ro 3:25-26 of the NT.
Go and learn what it means.

even without knowledge of OT laws The NT is very clear
Romans 3:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[SUP]26 [/SUP]To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
2 Peter 1:9
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
That is how one becomes a new creature born again ...fresh start...any sin committed in this new life is dealt with here...
1 John 2:1

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Elin]

The Bible doesn't teach grace "alone" anywhere. What it does teach is that we are saved by "grace through faith" apart from works.

Faith itself is a work

So, pray tell, which is it?

Are we saved apart from work, or are we saved by the work of faith?
You can't have it both ways.

Nope. . .faith is not a "work" in the NT sense of the word.

In the NT, works/deeds are works of the Mosaic law, deeds of law keeping (Ro 3:20, 28).

In the NT, faith is not a "work":

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast." (Eph 2:8-9)

Faith is a gift (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) of grace (Eph 2:8), not a work. Also as gifts are
repentance (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18 5:31) and
righteousness (Ro 5:17).

This gift of saving faith then produces obedience to God.
But the obedience produced by the gift of saving faith is not what saved.
It is by faith, not by its works, that we are saved (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Elin]

Adding to my last post.

The most common deception at work today in the minds of many is the abstract view of salvation. Due to the development of Church doctrines through Catholicism and the Reformation an incorrect view of salvation is generally taught. It is commonly heldthat reconciliation to God is premised on Jesus dying as a form of judicial substitute which tenders a payment for a debt owed. With the debt being paid it is henceforth not due anymore. This view is often termed "Penal Substitution" and is the most common view of the purpose of the death of Christ today.

And that doesn't give you pause?

It was borne out of the Reformation as a development of the Satisfaction theory which was first developed in the 11th century.

This "Penal Substitution" doctrine serves to twist the mission of Jesus Christ from being perceived as a "rescue" to instead being a "payment substitution."

What is twisted is your attempt to discredit the Biblical meaning of Christ's sacrifice.

More knowledge of the OT sacrificial system would show your error here.

The life of the animal was given to atone for sin in substitution for the life of the transgressor (Lev 17:11).

Perhaps a careful study of this would be helpful.