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P
Hi again Marcus. I was referring to an earlier statement by you, where you said: "This subject is very interesting from the perspective that there is seldom a topic like it that attracts so many revisionists of any description!" I believe that this was a good point, and so wanted to let you know.
Best, Magnus
Best, Magnus
Such as...?
From what I've read there wasn't really a huge amount of blood letting done, sure there may have been some conquering here and there but that was normal back in those days... a bit
Certainly no more done 'in the name of islam' than normal nations before the crusades, after the crusades I think is a little different.
From what I've read there wasn't really a huge amount of blood letting done, sure there may have been some conquering here and there but that was normal back in those days... a bit
Certainly no more done 'in the name of islam' than normal nations before the crusades, after the crusades I think is a little different.
G
Anyone seen the Sea of Gallilee?
It was the sight of a famous Crusaders defeat. They were dying of thirst and within sight of the cooling waters. The Moslems stood between them and the lake. They became more and more desparate and then the moslem set the grass on fire. This was men wearing metal suits of armour. It was torture and a great victory for allah.
It was the sight of a famous Crusaders defeat. They were dying of thirst and within sight of the cooling waters. The Moslems stood between them and the lake. They became more and more desparate and then the moslem set the grass on fire. This was men wearing metal suits of armour. It was torture and a great victory for allah.
P
Hi Slepsog.
You have a good point. But whether or not a war is "just" can be discussed. I guess that most people would find the Allied (and Soviet) war against Hitler (and Japan) to be "just", and so we may probably discuss the "justification" of the crusades as well.
Concerning the Islamic wars of conquest prior to the crusades, I agree with you to a certain degree. In fact, the crusades were a reaction to Islamic violence versus Christian pilgrims - as well as the Islamic occupation of Christian Anatolia (officially, although the Pope didn't care too much for his Eastern relatives). But even if we mention these and other Islamic blood sheds, there are aspects of the crusades which are less "just"...
You have a good point. But whether or not a war is "just" can be discussed. I guess that most people would find the Allied (and Soviet) war against Hitler (and Japan) to be "just", and so we may probably discuss the "justification" of the crusades as well.
Concerning the Islamic wars of conquest prior to the crusades, I agree with you to a certain degree. In fact, the crusades were a reaction to Islamic violence versus Christian pilgrims - as well as the Islamic occupation of Christian Anatolia (officially, although the Pope didn't care too much for his Eastern relatives). But even if we mention these and other Islamic blood sheds, there are aspects of the crusades which are less "just"...
J
Peaceful_crusader and Marcus2x2 you have made several great points.
Marcus2x2 hit this already, the justification provided in the name of Christianity ie kill Muslims in the Holy Land for Jesus and have sins forgiven and way to heaven opened is heretical.
There were clearly political pressures in Europe that were building between feudal lords each with his own army that the Pope was diverting and refocusing on the Holy Land. Some of the Crusades were blatant power grabs (the IV) and many of the Jews and Christians in the Holy Land suffered at the hands of the invading Crusaders.
All of that considered the Muslims presented a clear and deadly danger to all of Europe. From the stand point of self defense there is ample justification. The Muslims did participate in massive blood letting and spread from Saudi Arabia, North Africa, into central Asia and Europe at the point of the sword. When Mohammad used the word jihad in his attack on Mecca and killed the Jews that did not side with him he was not talking about personal struggle. He was talking about killing infidels. He and his followers used jihad the same way in every other attack they made. This is true of the fighting against the tribes of North Africa and in 711 when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula. It was true when they attacked Damascus and Byzantium multiple times. From the 7th Century to the 12th the Muslim faith spread through military might and economic coercion that continues to this day.
One of the least taught issues is the Muslim slave trade which came at the expense of tens of millions of people and vastly eclipsed the European trade later (not trying to justify European slave trade) which also continues to this day.
Had the Christian kingdoms not mobilized and the Mongols not decended the Muslims would have taken much much more. There was ample justification for self defense without twisting Christ's teachings.
Marcus2x2 hit this already, the justification provided in the name of Christianity ie kill Muslims in the Holy Land for Jesus and have sins forgiven and way to heaven opened is heretical.
There were clearly political pressures in Europe that were building between feudal lords each with his own army that the Pope was diverting and refocusing on the Holy Land. Some of the Crusades were blatant power grabs (the IV) and many of the Jews and Christians in the Holy Land suffered at the hands of the invading Crusaders.
All of that considered the Muslims presented a clear and deadly danger to all of Europe. From the stand point of self defense there is ample justification. The Muslims did participate in massive blood letting and spread from Saudi Arabia, North Africa, into central Asia and Europe at the point of the sword. When Mohammad used the word jihad in his attack on Mecca and killed the Jews that did not side with him he was not talking about personal struggle. He was talking about killing infidels. He and his followers used jihad the same way in every other attack they made. This is true of the fighting against the tribes of North Africa and in 711 when they invaded the Iberian Peninsula. It was true when they attacked Damascus and Byzantium multiple times. From the 7th Century to the 12th the Muslim faith spread through military might and economic coercion that continues to this day.
One of the least taught issues is the Muslim slave trade which came at the expense of tens of millions of people and vastly eclipsed the European trade later (not trying to justify European slave trade) which also continues to this day.
Had the Christian kingdoms not mobilized and the Mongols not decended the Muslims would have taken much much more. There was ample justification for self defense without twisting Christ's teachings.
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P
You have some good points Spartan. The political part of it is quite clear I would say. But the theological perspective is problematic, the gospel taken into account. Well, this is indeed a big debate, and it doesn't solely concern the crusades - the debate over how Christians should relate to the world (politics etc)...
J
Well said.
The idea of Christians thinking they can use war to spread the Gospel is quite bothersome.
I find non-involvement in the dire problems of the world equally bothersome. I think of places like Darfur in Sudan and of Christians who are being killed in in places like Indonesia yearly and I wonder what we should be doing and why we are not more involved as believers.
When Alexios I of Byzantium asked for help from Pope Uran II and the West it was given but in the forth crusade we know help did not come at all. It is one thing to argue amongst ourselves how to show Christ to fellow believers in need or unbelievers. It is a sad testimony that not only did the Christian West not help its eastern brothers it attacked them. In the end the crusader kingdoms slowed the immediate advance of the Turks but also weakened Byzantium. One of the legacies of the crusades is the mistrust that still exist between Western and Eastern Christians as well as between Muslims and Christians.
The idea of Christians thinking they can use war to spread the Gospel is quite bothersome.
I find non-involvement in the dire problems of the world equally bothersome. I think of places like Darfur in Sudan and of Christians who are being killed in in places like Indonesia yearly and I wonder what we should be doing and why we are not more involved as believers.
When Alexios I of Byzantium asked for help from Pope Uran II and the West it was given but in the forth crusade we know help did not come at all. It is one thing to argue amongst ourselves how to show Christ to fellow believers in need or unbelievers. It is a sad testimony that not only did the Christian West not help its eastern brothers it attacked them. In the end the crusader kingdoms slowed the immediate advance of the Turks but also weakened Byzantium. One of the legacies of the crusades is the mistrust that still exist between Western and Eastern Christians as well as between Muslims and Christians.
A
That's a very good point. I was thinking after Micheal Jackson died how tempting it is to take sides on whether or not he did anything sexually inappropriate with children (I originally just wrote "inappropriate" but dangling Blanket over the balcony and making him the worst named celebrity baby is pretty clear) because there's a lot of conflicting evidence that's been made public. But yeah, the bottom line is, I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, and we leave the judgement up to God who does know what happened. I think we need to take approach on more things.
C
I might have already adressed this, I have several times on this forum. What your quoting is Sermon on the Mount, Jesus in His early ministry exclusively among the remnant of Judah and Israel whom were living in the land of Judea in which many other tribes were dwelling as well, sought to unite His folowers and diciples under Him as Christians, these early diciples and followers of whom gathered to hear Sermon on the Mount had for hundreds of years been fighting and at war with other and surrounding tribes, but importantly Jesus sought to heal the breach between Judah and Israel (In both Tribes; Judah consisted of Judah and Benjamin and Israel was the 10 tribes, however there was only a small remnant left of either in Judea, as the majority had been scattered after Assyrian and Babylonian captivity). Now the remnant that were left in Judea, were not united they were at odds and opposed to each other, they were literally enemies, and had been for hundreds of years, Now the Messiah had come they were to be united once more under God as Christians.
Now you can imagine that those gathered together at the Sermon on the Mount were from different tribes - there was twelve tribes of Israel and had been at war with each other in the past hundreds of years, also those coming together under the Messiah Jesus Christ were from different locations, cities, towns, different classes, different occupations, different familes, different positions; some were teachers and scholars, some were fisherman and shepards, some were merchants and traders other were soldiers amd military, some were old, some were young, some very poor perhaps selling what little they had just to get to the place to see Jesus without even knowing how they would get home, others were wealthy and travelled in comfort and ease, masters, slaves, housewives, etc, etc....All these people coming together was difficult of course, there were problems as there would be considering these unique circumstances, there were disputes, old foes coming together again, different classes, different tribes and clans and families, men, women and children, the old and the young, and this is what Jesus is addressing, He is preaching to His Sheep, His people, it is a message of love and unification of His own people, His sheep that had travelled from far and wide to hear Him - God! This is an exclusive sermon, the people there knew exactly what He was talking about and went on to deliver His message to the world!
In no way did Jesus and His diciples ever mean that a Christian should help, pray or be of service to an antichrist! Never! That would have to be the biggest deception and falsehood in Christianity ever, and it is so prevalent today and Jesus NEVER ment that you should pray for an antichrist! For those present at Sermon on the Mount if they had been enemies before than NOW AS CHRISTIANS THEY ARE ONE, there can be no enemies in Christ.
You can give truth to an antichrist, you can give them the truth, you can give them the Gospel, but you are not commanded to pray for antichrists, and you are not commanded to love them, because there is no love outside the body of Christ for God is love, its the love that was in Christ and there is no love outside of that, those that were enemies are united within Christ, that is exclusive, those that do not love the Son, do not love the Father, unless they repent and yield to His authority and His kingship, then they have no love, neither can you love them, lest they be in Christ.
Amen.
Now you can imagine that those gathered together at the Sermon on the Mount were from different tribes - there was twelve tribes of Israel and had been at war with each other in the past hundreds of years, also those coming together under the Messiah Jesus Christ were from different locations, cities, towns, different classes, different occupations, different familes, different positions; some were teachers and scholars, some were fisherman and shepards, some were merchants and traders other were soldiers amd military, some were old, some were young, some very poor perhaps selling what little they had just to get to the place to see Jesus without even knowing how they would get home, others were wealthy and travelled in comfort and ease, masters, slaves, housewives, etc, etc....All these people coming together was difficult of course, there were problems as there would be considering these unique circumstances, there were disputes, old foes coming together again, different classes, different tribes and clans and families, men, women and children, the old and the young, and this is what Jesus is addressing, He is preaching to His Sheep, His people, it is a message of love and unification of His own people, His sheep that had travelled from far and wide to hear Him - God! This is an exclusive sermon, the people there knew exactly what He was talking about and went on to deliver His message to the world!
In no way did Jesus and His diciples ever mean that a Christian should help, pray or be of service to an antichrist! Never! That would have to be the biggest deception and falsehood in Christianity ever, and it is so prevalent today and Jesus NEVER ment that you should pray for an antichrist! For those present at Sermon on the Mount if they had been enemies before than NOW AS CHRISTIANS THEY ARE ONE, there can be no enemies in Christ.
You can give truth to an antichrist, you can give them the truth, you can give them the Gospel, but you are not commanded to pray for antichrists, and you are not commanded to love them, because there is no love outside the body of Christ for God is love, its the love that was in Christ and there is no love outside of that, those that were enemies are united within Christ, that is exclusive, those that do not love the Son, do not love the Father, unless they repent and yield to His authority and His kingship, then they have no love, neither can you love them, lest they be in Christ.
Amen.
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P
Yes Spartan. You have some good points this time too. Myself I've been trying to help persecuted Christians through many different means, but I admit that as long as the "Christian" West silently accepts this - because of economical reasons (not "upsetting" the Arab/Muslim world) - persecutions and massacres will continue.
As you say concerning the crusades, a very sad part of it is that Western Christians attacked Eastern Christians, and so weakned both Christianity in the Middle East, the political situaion (leading to Turkish assaults on even more Christian lands) and the unity between Christians. Unfortunately so-called "Christian" nations have often worked together with especially Muslim powers in order to defeat local (Christian) rivals (take France who allied the Ottomans during the Rennesance in order to weaken the Habsburgs - or France and Britain who supported the Ottomans during the Crimean war around 1850, stopping Russian expansion southwards, an expansion which might have liberated Balcan people, Armenians and other Christians from Muslim occupation).
As you say concerning the crusades, a very sad part of it is that Western Christians attacked Eastern Christians, and so weakned both Christianity in the Middle East, the political situaion (leading to Turkish assaults on even more Christian lands) and the unity between Christians. Unfortunately so-called "Christian" nations have often worked together with especially Muslim powers in order to defeat local (Christian) rivals (take France who allied the Ottomans during the Rennesance in order to weaken the Habsburgs - or France and Britain who supported the Ottomans during the Crimean war around 1850, stopping Russian expansion southwards, an expansion which might have liberated Balcan people, Armenians and other Christians from Muslim occupation).
First a couple of quick passages about love.
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Now this passage shows the meaning of 'love thy neighbour'
Luke 10 - 25-37
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two denarii [1] and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”
Now cup how can you possibly say we are not meant to love our neighbours? Non-christian neighbours?
May I question whether you have misinterpreted the sermon on the mount? You say that this passage says not to love others, yet the rest of the new testament commands us to & everyone here has posted. Please, re-read & try and understand what this passage really means, don't simply go off what you have been told.
- Sermon on the Mount -
Matthew 5:1-12
1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down his disciples came to him.
2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek , for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Now this passage shows the meaning of 'love thy neighbour'
Luke 10 - 25-37
The Parable of the Good Samaritan
25 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
29 But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” 30 Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. 32 So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 And the next day he took out two denarii [1] and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.’ 36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?” 37 He said, “The one who showed him mercy.” And Jesus said to him, “You go, and do likewise.”
Now cup how can you possibly say we are not meant to love our neighbours? Non-christian neighbours?
May I question whether you have misinterpreted the sermon on the mount? You say that this passage says not to love others, yet the rest of the new testament commands us to & everyone here has posted. Please, re-read & try and understand what this passage really means, don't simply go off what you have been told.
- Sermon on the Mount -
Matthew 5:1-12
1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down his disciples came to him.
2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek , for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.
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