Follow up thoughts of the "RAPTURE" from previous post!
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Boy were they (the Thessalonians) wrong. It's been nearly 2,000 years and counting. So much for the immanency that they allegedly believed. As for their brethren who died in Christ, Paul comforts them and tells them that God will resurrect them on the Last Day of this old tired and wicked earth when He returns with the new heavens and earth and empties heaven and translates every living being in the twinkling of an eye just before everything is burned up.
H
It woud appear that the rapture, no , not the rapture, But the 2nd coming of Christ back to earth, did/would APPEAR to be close "at hand" imminent, for the church of the book of Acts. The language used gives the feeling of a soon return of Jesus; But, as God developed His revelations of His trues, God began to show that the coming of Christ was not so imminent as supposed at first. 2thess. was the first real eye opener to the Christians , that the 2nd coming of christ was quite complicated. There were some details, which were not clearly spelled out before, although Paul says,"I told you this before", v5. AND, even 2Thess 2 is so full of details that run together without some details left out, in between events , so, even 2Thess.2 is very confusing. The further revelations in the book of Revelation, fill in more details, left out in 2Thes2,: YET these details are still, very confusing in the LAST book, The REVELATON of Jesus Christ. , Please,reread 2Thes.2 and notice how confusing it is, as you recall other prophecies of the 2nd coming of Jesus. Love to all, Hoffco
H
Please keep in mind, that terms must be understood in their context. The "Day of God" is not the same as the "The Day of the Lord". The Day of the Lord is 1,000 yrs. long, but The Day of God is short, only the creation of the new Heavens and the New earth. The Day of the Lord, includes The Day of God. The great Tribulation is never called the great Day of God's wrath. Although the Church is raptured after the great Tri., before the DAy of Wrath, with in the Day of Wrath is the tribulation to the 144,000 Jews sealed from the wrath but killed by the beast. Yet the 144,000 and all martyrs of the Church age, are a part of the Church , Yet, they are raptured at the end of "Jacobs trouble", at Jesus 2nd coming to rule the earth. Love to all, Hoffco
H
You are being deceitful; and not allowing the new revelation in 2Thess. and in the Book of Revelation to interpret the previous revelations, predictions, of Jesus and the earlier books of the N.T. . Although Martha and the disciples would say that the dead would be raised on the "last day", they did not know that the last day would not be a 24 hr. day.; Jesus knew that "the last day" would be 1,000yrs long, but did not tell them the whole truth at that time in Jh. 11. To PlainWord. you seem to be very confused because you will not allow the Bible to develop your thinking into the whole truth revealed in all the N.T. books. You are cheating the Believers out of their joyful reign of this old earth with Christ. This is a very wrong dispensational view of the Church of Christ. Love to all, Hoffco PS. The Bible's calling the age of the N.C. as the "last days" would tend to deceive the early church into believing that Jesus return would be soon, imminent, But the further N.T. books helped to dispel this false idea, of the imminent return of Christ. Jesus and the early writtings of the apostles didn't deceive , but they just didn't tell the whole truth all a once. Jesus in Mt.24 did give the feeling that His return would NOT be for a long time. The Gospel is to be taken to the ends of the earth. And Jesus made it clear that his return would not be until "after" the tribulation. And John in Rev.1:9 said he was in the tribulation.
Hoffco, you believe Christ is coming before the Tribulation, I believe He comes after. Regardless of which of us is correct, it has been nearly 2000 years since Christ left earth and ascended to heaven. Do you really think 3.5 years or 7 years or whatever the time is between the alleged Pre-Trib Rapture and the Post Trib Second coming would make any difference to the Thessalonians of AD 51 in terms of the return being close?????
I agree the feeling is that the return of Christ is close. However, relative to our mortal minds, 2,000 years does not seem close. The mere fact that 2,000 has nearly lapsed kinda defeats the Immanency theory as evidence of a Pre-Trib Rapture. It's a tired a weak argument anyway. Christ hasn't returned so clearly there is no immanency.
I agree the feeling is that the return of Christ is close. However, relative to our mortal minds, 2,000 years does not seem close. The mere fact that 2,000 has nearly lapsed kinda defeats the Immanency theory as evidence of a Pre-Trib Rapture. It's a tired a weak argument anyway. Christ hasn't returned so clearly there is no immanency.
Did you really just say what I think you said???
You seem to imply that Jesus was being deceitful. Comon brother, I don't think you really believe Christ was being deceptive. You are talking about Jesus here, not Satan. There is no deceit in Christ. Christ HIMSELF teaches that the resurrection happens on the Last Day. This is the very last day, not the 1,000 year long DAY OF THE LORD. The resurrection happens a split second before the world ends brother. This is attested to in 1 Cor 15:50-52, 2 Peter 3:10 and 1 Thes 4:13-18. All of these passages deal with the end of time and the world as we know it.
You seem to imply that Jesus was being deceitful. Comon brother, I don't think you really believe Christ was being deceptive. You are talking about Jesus here, not Satan. There is no deceit in Christ. Christ HIMSELF teaches that the resurrection happens on the Last Day. This is the very last day, not the 1,000 year long DAY OF THE LORD. The resurrection happens a split second before the world ends brother. This is attested to in 1 Cor 15:50-52, 2 Peter 3:10 and 1 Thes 4:13-18. All of these passages deal with the end of time and the world as we know it.
Actually, its all I do is allow the Bible to develop my thoughts. I refuse to accept explanations where they create discrepancies as you seem to do brother. I am not cheating Believers out of reigning with Christ. I merely read the word as it is written and try to explain it to people who aren't getting it.
I take this passage from Rev 20 very literally. I accept it for what it says.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Clearly there are a group of Christians returning with Christ and a group who remain in heaven. This is the group who returns:
those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
Here is the group which does not return with Christ. Instead, they return with God 1,000 years or so later, at the end of time:
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
I cheat nobody. First I don't have to power to deprive anyone of a blessing from God, so if you disagree with the above, please take it up with our creator. He created us, we live by His rules and He will do His will regardless of how fair either of us think it is. Me personally, I think it is very fair that the martyrs get to come back with Christ to exact some revenge on those who killed them while everyone else gets to rest with God, the Father. I have absolutely no problem with accepting that, whichever group I ultimately join.
Oh, and BTW, I don't need to apply some stupid man-made dispensation theory to the Word to make my beliefs work like you and others have to do.
I take this passage from Rev 20 very literally. I accept it for what it says.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Clearly there are a group of Christians returning with Christ and a group who remain in heaven. This is the group who returns:
those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
Here is the group which does not return with Christ. Instead, they return with God 1,000 years or so later, at the end of time:
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
I cheat nobody. First I don't have to power to deprive anyone of a blessing from God, so if you disagree with the above, please take it up with our creator. He created us, we live by His rules and He will do His will regardless of how fair either of us think it is. Me personally, I think it is very fair that the martyrs get to come back with Christ to exact some revenge on those who killed them while everyone else gets to rest with God, the Father. I have absolutely no problem with accepting that, whichever group I ultimately join.
Oh, and BTW, I don't need to apply some stupid man-made dispensation theory to the Word to make my beliefs work like you and others have to do.
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Another strong case to be made against the Pre-Trib Rapture is this passage from 2 Cor 5, from Paul. When Paul uses the word, "Lord" without including the Lord Jesus, or Lord Jesus Christ or Christ the Lord he almost always is referring to God the Father. So if you see Paul just using the word "LORD" without adding Jesus, or Christ, assume Paul to be discussing the FATHER. Now the below makes perfect sense with everything I have been saying...
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord (GOD, the FATHER). 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord (GOD the FATHER).
Almost everyone thinks Paul was referring to Christ here, but he isn't. Paul is discussing GOD the Father here.
As long as we are souls in heaven, we will be with the FATHER. Jesus is there too now but when Jesus returns those left in heaven will still be souls and still with the FATHER. Meanwhile, those who return with Jesus, the Martyrs, receive their new bodies and are present with Jesus on earth in bodies.
To summarize:
SOULS = WITH GOD
BODY = WITH CHRIST OR HOLY SPIRIT
Everything agrees!! No need to invent things. Rev 20:4-6 is in perfect unison with the above. Rev 20:4-6 is in perfect unison with Mat 24 and 2 Thes 2.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord (GOD, the FATHER). 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord (GOD the FATHER).
Almost everyone thinks Paul was referring to Christ here, but he isn't. Paul is discussing GOD the Father here.
As long as we are souls in heaven, we will be with the FATHER. Jesus is there too now but when Jesus returns those left in heaven will still be souls and still with the FATHER. Meanwhile, those who return with Jesus, the Martyrs, receive their new bodies and are present with Jesus on earth in bodies.
To summarize:
SOULS = WITH GOD
BODY = WITH CHRIST OR HOLY SPIRIT
Everything agrees!! No need to invent things. Rev 20:4-6 is in perfect unison with the above. Rev 20:4-6 is in perfect unison with Mat 24 and 2 Thes 2.
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H
To brother PlainWord. You make some very wrong assumptions, because you are not putting all the pieces of the puzzle in place. To say that the eleven disciples will not get to set on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel is directly contrary to Jesus promise to them in Mt.19:28 "...Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelves of Israel." Jesus never denied that He and we will be ruling the earth for 1,000yrs. For the apostles and all the dead Christians to be left in Heaven at Jesus 2nd return to earth to rule, flies in the face of the whole program of scripture. 1 thess.4:14-18 is very clear:, God will send all the dead Christians back to the rapture meeting in the air, to get their new bodies, and we will be "changed""glorified" together with all the dead saints from Adam and eve to the last one to died just before Jesus returns to RAPTURE all the saints to Heaven. The Raptures begins the "last Day" which will be 1,000yrs long. The Rapture will be at the MID point of the 70th week of Daniel, just before God's WRATH starts to be poured out in the "trumpets" and the "bowls". The seals of Rev.6 are Church history, going on now. The Raptures is the 6th seal. The wicked dead will not be raised until the end of the "last Day": Just before the Day of God, the new Heavens and the new earth.
All of the seals have already been broken and the "70 Weeks" are over - both in the first century.
Revelation 5:5 and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
Revelation 7:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, [SUP]3 [/SUP]saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Ezekiel 9
Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate which faces north, each with his shattering weapon in his hand; and among them was a certain man clothed in linen with a writing case at his loins. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub on which it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.” So they started with the elders who were before the temple. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!” Thus they went out and struck down the people in the city. [SUP]8 [/SUP]As they were striking the people and I alone was left, I fell on my face and cried out saying, “Alas, Lord God! Are You destroying the whole remnant of Israel by pouring out Your wrath on Jerusalem?”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is very, very great, and the land is filled with blood and the city is full of perversion; for they say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land, and the Lord does not see!’ [SUP]10 [/SUP]But as for Me, My eye will have no pity nor will I spare, but I will bring their conduct upon their heads.”
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then behold, the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case reported, saying, “I have done just as You have commanded me.”
Ezekiel 37
The hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry. [SUP]3 [/SUP]He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. [SUP]6 [/SUP]I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” [SUP]10 [/SUP]So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’ [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The word of the Lord came again to me saying, [SUP]16 [/SUP]“And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’ [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. [SUP]18 [/SUP]When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?’ [SUP]19 [/SUP]say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ [SUP]20 [/SUP]The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.
[SUP]24[/SUP]“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.[SUP]25 [/SUP]They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”"
Acts 1:6
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
Romans 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Hebrews 11:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
Revelation 5:5 and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
Revelation 7:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, [SUP]3 [/SUP]saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Ezekiel 9
Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.” [SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate which faces north, each with his shattering weapon in his hand; and among them was a certain man clothed in linen with a writing case at his loins. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub on which it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” [SUP]5 [/SUP]But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.” So they started with the elders who were before the temple. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And He said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!” Thus they went out and struck down the people in the city. [SUP]8 [/SUP]As they were striking the people and I alone was left, I fell on my face and cried out saying, “Alas, Lord God! Are You destroying the whole remnant of Israel by pouring out Your wrath on Jerusalem?”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is very, very great, and the land is filled with blood and the city is full of perversion; for they say, ‘The Lord has forsaken the land, and the Lord does not see!’ [SUP]10 [/SUP]But as for Me, My eye will have no pity nor will I spare, but I will bring their conduct upon their heads.”
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then behold, the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case reported, saying, “I have done just as You have commanded me.”
Ezekiel 37
The hand of the Lord was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry. [SUP]3 [/SUP]He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ [SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. [SUP]6 [/SUP]I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” [SUP]10 [/SUP]So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’ [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. [SUP]14 [/SUP]I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The word of the Lord came again to me saying, [SUP]16 [/SUP]“And you, son of man, take for yourself one stick and write on it, ‘For Judah and for the sons of Israel, his companions’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.’ [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then join them for yourself one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand. [SUP]18 [/SUP]When the sons of your people speak to you saying, ‘Will you not declare to us what you mean by these?’ [SUP]19 [/SUP]say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will put them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.”’ [SUP]20 [/SUP]The sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.
[SUP]24[/SUP]“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.[SUP]25 [/SUP]They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. [SUP]26 [/SUP]I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”"
Acts 1:6
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
Romans 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Hebrews 11:15-16
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
P
I was brought up AS A PRESBYTERIAN and so was never really taught anything about the Rapture at all...not uncommon. Then as a teenager I became very curious about he many writings regarding the RAPTURE and the verses from scripture seemed to back up a PRE TRIB removal of the church to spare her from the coming WRATH. So far so good. Then as an adult I come across the debate about whether or not the church goes through the rapture or not and it seems to me that the greatest argument put forward by those Christians who hold to a POST TRIB viewpoint is that in their opinion the early church fathers did not believe in a PRE TRIB DOCTRINE and that in fact some bloke in the 19th century was the first person to come up with this "THEORY". Well I have read soooo much about this that my head is spinning and I am still confused.
As for PRE TRIB being a relatively new theory....if Paul was addressing voices in the church of Thess who were fearing the coming persecution and "wrath", by telling them that the church would not go through this surely then this is Pre TRIB doctrine which had been "forgotten" by the established "church" for centuries?
is the definition of "WRATH" the problem because it seems plain in context that Paul must have been referring to a time of tribulation or am I misreading this?
is the debate about the ideas of being caught up to meet Him in the clouds and Christ returning to the earth being one or two separate events. Is the debate about geography or semantics, are they the one event described in two different forms of language...two different metaphors or two different locations...how could we ever actually resolve this debate without asking Paul himself what he meant. Why is it not recorded in scripture that Paul's statement caused confusion amongst the brethren and he therefore redefined his terms.....could it be because there was not confusion, it was quite straight forward, just that he meant what he said....once in the air and once to the earth.
And lastly surely if the church is to be raptured after or even during the tribulation then people would need no warning regarding the " be ready s...keep watch...bridegroom arrives unexpectedly......as it was in the days of Noah....statements) surely people would "know the hour" by the tribulation events?
maybe I'm just stupid........very very possible....but why would Christ make this most important and wonderful event so cryptic in His revealing to us?
HELP,!!
As for PRE TRIB being a relatively new theory....if Paul was addressing voices in the church of Thess who were fearing the coming persecution and "wrath", by telling them that the church would not go through this surely then this is Pre TRIB doctrine which had been "forgotten" by the established "church" for centuries?
is the definition of "WRATH" the problem because it seems plain in context that Paul must have been referring to a time of tribulation or am I misreading this?
is the debate about the ideas of being caught up to meet Him in the clouds and Christ returning to the earth being one or two separate events. Is the debate about geography or semantics, are they the one event described in two different forms of language...two different metaphors or two different locations...how could we ever actually resolve this debate without asking Paul himself what he meant. Why is it not recorded in scripture that Paul's statement caused confusion amongst the brethren and he therefore redefined his terms.....could it be because there was not confusion, it was quite straight forward, just that he meant what he said....once in the air and once to the earth.
And lastly surely if the church is to be raptured after or even during the tribulation then people would need no warning regarding the " be ready s...keep watch...bridegroom arrives unexpectedly......as it was in the days of Noah....statements) surely people would "know the hour" by the tribulation events?
maybe I'm just stupid........very very possible....but why would Christ make this most important and wonderful event so cryptic in His revealing to us?
HELP,!!
G
Pottyone:
Let me suggest to you that the answer is actually quite simple, and that - "to a point" - the scriptures are / were "more easily understood" as you go back in time -- for a number of reasons, all having to do with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in properly understanding the scriptures - and the "lies of Satan" which interfere with that guidance. ( I believe that there is a whole lot more interference today. I also believe that there is a whole lot less listening to the Holy Spirit. )
I believe that God had the scriptures written in such a way that only those who are seeking the truth with the proper "attitude" toward that truth would discover / find / see / understand it. If a person "goes about it" with pride, they will certainly not gain much understanding of the truth. However, with humility, they may gain much understanding of the truth.
The key thing is to always determine what a passage of scripture actually says before trying to understand what it means - i.e., always answer the question 'What does it say?' before trying to answer the question 'What does it mean?'. More times than not, properly answering the first question will answer the second question for you.
The third question to answer is:
"Does it agree with all of scripture?"
All scripture must agree.
The problem for some is - they always assume that what they have already learned as a foundation cannot possibly contain error. So - when they happen across "conflicting" scripture passages - they do not consider the possibility that their foundation may need correction. And, as such, they will be forever wrong - unless and until they "back up" and re-evaluate their foundation. And, the foundation of a LOT of people has been "tainted" by the "lies of Satan"...
It is not difficult to understand the phrase:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Some people just do not want to believe that --- "it means what it says"...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- if something seems to be in conflict with such a simple, straight-forward, phrase as this -- it could be in error...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- Satan is the master deceiver - and, that - he is very capable of deceiving them.
"We must all be very diligent at being very careful..."
You have to want to know the truth - the real truth - "even if it hurts" - to discover / find / see / understand it. Otherwise, you will not - "it is that simple"...
When you study a passage of scripture -- temporarily "put aside" / "forget" everything you know about the scriptures - and focus on answering this question:
"What does it [ actually ] say?"
If you can do this, you will have started out "with your best foot forward" in "walking the proper path" to find the truth.
Let me suggest to you that the answer is actually quite simple, and that - "to a point" - the scriptures are / were "more easily understood" as you go back in time -- for a number of reasons, all having to do with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in properly understanding the scriptures - and the "lies of Satan" which interfere with that guidance. ( I believe that there is a whole lot more interference today. I also believe that there is a whole lot less listening to the Holy Spirit. )
I believe that God had the scriptures written in such a way that only those who are seeking the truth with the proper "attitude" toward that truth would discover / find / see / understand it. If a person "goes about it" with pride, they will certainly not gain much understanding of the truth. However, with humility, they may gain much understanding of the truth.
The key thing is to always determine what a passage of scripture actually says before trying to understand what it means - i.e., always answer the question 'What does it say?' before trying to answer the question 'What does it mean?'. More times than not, properly answering the first question will answer the second question for you.
The third question to answer is:
"Does it agree with all of scripture?"
All scripture must agree.
The problem for some is - they always assume that what they have already learned as a foundation cannot possibly contain error. So - when they happen across "conflicting" scripture passages - they do not consider the possibility that their foundation may need correction. And, as such, they will be forever wrong - unless and until they "back up" and re-evaluate their foundation. And, the foundation of a LOT of people has been "tainted" by the "lies of Satan"...
It is not difficult to understand the phrase:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Some people just do not want to believe that --- "it means what it says"...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- if something seems to be in conflict with such a simple, straight-forward, phrase as this -- it could be in error...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- Satan is the master deceiver - and, that - he is very capable of deceiving them.
"We must all be very diligent at being very careful..."
You have to want to know the truth - the real truth - "even if it hurts" - to discover / find / see / understand it. Otherwise, you will not - "it is that simple"...
When you study a passage of scripture -- temporarily "put aside" / "forget" everything you know about the scriptures - and focus on answering this question:
"What does it [ actually ] say?"
If you can do this, you will have started out "with your best foot forward" in "walking the proper path" to find the truth.
Pottyone:
The third question to answer is:
"Does it agree with all of scripture?"
All scripture must agree.
The problem for some is - they always assume that what they have already learned as a foundation cannot possibly contain error. So - when they happen across "conflicting" scripture passages - they do not consider the possibility that their foundation may need correction. And, as such, they will be forever wrong - unless and until they "back up" and re-evaluate their foundation. And, the foundation of a LOT of people has been "tainted" by the "lies of Satan"...
The third question to answer is:
"Does it agree with all of scripture?"
All scripture must agree.
The problem for some is - they always assume that what they have already learned as a foundation cannot possibly contain error. So - when they happen across "conflicting" scripture passages - they do not consider the possibility that their foundation may need correction. And, as such, they will be forever wrong - unless and until they "back up" and re-evaluate their foundation. And, the foundation of a LOT of people has been "tainted" by the "lies of Satan"...
Not putting them together is where half truths and many of the arguments between different "churches" comes from. You can get the bible to say just about anything that you want, if you only read the verses that you like.
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness... (of course, you have to cut this verse off in the middle)
1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (There is nothing foolish about God).
Luke 6:37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. (this is popular verse to abuse)
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
[SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; [SUP]10 [/SUP]I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?[SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.
When did I ever dispute that the 12 disciples (Mathias replacing Judas) will sit on 12 thrones?!?!?!?!?
Further, just when do you see this "regeneration" happening??
It does??? Does it fly in the face of this scriptural passage??
Rev 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Those who come back with Christ are clearly identified in verse 4.
The souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the Word of God
Who had not worshiped the Beast or his image
And who had not received his mark
Pretty clear to me. Forgive me for taking John, and by extension God, at His WORD. Do you see any ambiguity in the above identification of those returning with Christ or do you just not like it?
I suggest you read that passage again. You will not find one WORD about any living person being changed there. Read again also verse 14. It does not say, "GOD will send..." It says, "GOD WILL BRING WITH HIM." Here it is for you, I'll save you the trouble of looking it up.
...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
What is your scriptural basis for the above dear Hoffco??
The rest of this is just conjecture. As I explained, the so-called Rapture, the events described in 1 Thes 4:13-18 happen at the very end of the world. This is the only place they fit, otherwise you create conflicts all over the place. The Pre-Tribbers would obviously cry foul as this is their passage and without it, their whole doctrine fails. We are not told when 1 Thes 4:13-18 occurs but again, it fits at the end. Everything that is described there absolutely MUST happen before the earth is melted with fervent heat. So if this isn't the passage, where is it?
Further, just when do you see this "regeneration" happening??
It does??? Does it fly in the face of this scriptural passage??
Rev 20:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Those who come back with Christ are clearly identified in verse 4.
The souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the Word of God
Who had not worshiped the Beast or his image
And who had not received his mark
Pretty clear to me. Forgive me for taking John, and by extension God, at His WORD. Do you see any ambiguity in the above identification of those returning with Christ or do you just not like it?
I suggest you read that passage again. You will not find one WORD about any living person being changed there. Read again also verse 14. It does not say, "GOD will send..." It says, "GOD WILL BRING WITH HIM." Here it is for you, I'll save you the trouble of looking it up.
...even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
What is your scriptural basis for the above dear Hoffco??
The rest of this is just conjecture. As I explained, the so-called Rapture, the events described in 1 Thes 4:13-18 happen at the very end of the world. This is the only place they fit, otherwise you create conflicts all over the place. The Pre-Tribbers would obviously cry foul as this is their passage and without it, their whole doctrine fails. We are not told when 1 Thes 4:13-18 occurs but again, it fits at the end. Everything that is described there absolutely MUST happen before the earth is melted with fervent heat. So if this isn't the passage, where is it?
Pottyone:
Let me suggest to you that the answer is actually quite simple, and that - "to a point" - the scriptures are / were "more easily understood" as you go back in time -- for a number of reasons, all having to do with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in properly understanding the scriptures - and the "lies of Satan" which interfere with that guidance. ( I believe that there is a whole lot more interference today. I also believe that there is a whole lot less listening to the Holy Spirit. )
I believe that God had the scriptures written in such a way that only those who are seeking the truth with the proper "attitude" toward that truth would discover / find / see / understand it. If a person "goes about it" with pride, they will certainly not gain much understanding of the truth. However, with humility, they may gain much understanding of the truth.
The key thing is to always determine what a passage of scripture actually says before trying to understand what it means - i.e., always answer the question 'What does it say?' before trying to answer the question 'What does it mean?'. More times than not, properly answering the first question will answer the second question for you.
The third question to answer is:
"Does it agree with all of scripture?"
All scripture must agree.
The problem for some is - they always assume that what they have already learned as a foundation cannot possibly contain error. So - when they happen across "conflicting" scripture passages - they do not consider the possibility that their foundation may need correction. And, as such, they will be forever wrong - unless and until they "back up" and re-evaluate their foundation. And, the foundation of a LOT of people has been "tainted" by the "lies of Satan"...
It is not difficult to understand the phrase:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Some people just do not want to believe that --- "it means what it says"...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- if something seems to be in conflict with such a simple, straight-forward, phrase as this -- it could be in error...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- Satan is the master deceiver - and, that - he is very capable of deceiving them.
"We must all be very diligent at being very careful..."
You have to want to know the truth - the real truth - "even if it hurts" - to discover / find / see / understand it. Otherwise, you will not - "it is that simple"...
When you study a passage of scripture -- temporarily "put aside" / "forget" everything you know about the scriptures - and focus on answering this question:
"What does it [ actually ] say?"
If you can do this, you will have started out "with your best foot forward" in "walking the proper path" to find the truth.
Let me suggest to you that the answer is actually quite simple, and that - "to a point" - the scriptures are / were "more easily understood" as you go back in time -- for a number of reasons, all having to do with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in properly understanding the scriptures - and the "lies of Satan" which interfere with that guidance. ( I believe that there is a whole lot more interference today. I also believe that there is a whole lot less listening to the Holy Spirit. )
I believe that God had the scriptures written in such a way that only those who are seeking the truth with the proper "attitude" toward that truth would discover / find / see / understand it. If a person "goes about it" with pride, they will certainly not gain much understanding of the truth. However, with humility, they may gain much understanding of the truth.
The key thing is to always determine what a passage of scripture actually says before trying to understand what it means - i.e., always answer the question 'What does it say?' before trying to answer the question 'What does it mean?'. More times than not, properly answering the first question will answer the second question for you.
The third question to answer is:
"Does it agree with all of scripture?"
All scripture must agree.
The problem for some is - they always assume that what they have already learned as a foundation cannot possibly contain error. So - when they happen across "conflicting" scripture passages - they do not consider the possibility that their foundation may need correction. And, as such, they will be forever wrong - unless and until they "back up" and re-evaluate their foundation. And, the foundation of a LOT of people has been "tainted" by the "lies of Satan"...
It is not difficult to understand the phrase:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."
Some people just do not want to believe that --- "it means what it says"...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- if something seems to be in conflict with such a simple, straight-forward, phrase as this -- it could be in error...
Some people just do not want to believe that --- Satan is the master deceiver - and, that - he is very capable of deceiving them.
"We must all be very diligent at being very careful..."
You have to want to know the truth - the real truth - "even if it hurts" - to discover / find / see / understand it. Otherwise, you will not - "it is that simple"...
When you study a passage of scripture -- temporarily "put aside" / "forget" everything you know about the scriptures - and focus on answering this question:
"What does it [ actually ] say?"
If you can do this, you will have started out "with your best foot forward" in "walking the proper path" to find the truth.
Amen Brother Gary
K
The problem with a mid trib or post trib rapture is that it says we are pulled up into the air to be with our Lord. Why would we be pulled up at the beginning of the 1000 years or after all that when our Lord Jesus will be down on earth. That does not fit when you put we will be with Him. We obviously aren't with Him if we are up there and He is down hear.