Is justification by faith alone?

eternally-gratefull · Jun 30, 2014

I know you sorely want to add you works to save yourself.

But I suggest you humble yourself and learn to trust God completely.

Grave THROUGH FAITH (minus works) equals faith plus nothing, equals faith alone.

Works proceed faith (come out of), not precede (come before)

Salvation is a result of faith. period. those who had true faith, and are saved, WILL WORK, if they have true faith.

if they never had true faith, merely believe, they will not do the works Paul said they would in eph 2: 10, proving thei never had faith, it was dead.

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS which we have done, HE SAVED US.

end of story.

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

By Grace.... through faith.... that is what the scripture says....not" by faith " through faith
Do you think confessing Christ as Lord is just words...if you confess him only in words you are a liar you must obey him.
Romans 10:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved
10.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Some believe with all their heart God hath raised him from the dead but never move on to Making Christ their master

John 12:42
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

eternally-gratefull · Jun 30, 2014

newbirth said:

Yes BY GRACE through faith

Grace is unmerited or unearned favor. Faith is the work of God through someone who has not earned it.

and your point is? How can you earn something that is unearned? your twisting the meaning of the word.

No it is not just words. if it was just words. All who believed would get in, but this is not what scripture says, It says we are saved by FAITH. not mere belief. Again you rpoint? you are not refuting what I believe, you are in fact helping me to prove I am correct.

Yep. Some believe but have never been saved.

Thanks again for proving what I said. Mere belief will not save you, Only a true faith will.

You still have zero works in the equation for salvation. Grace (undeserved) by faith (work of God)

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

you don't even know what grace is do you? You think you came to God on your own accord?
Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Or where you got your faith from?
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

You guys make me laugh when you say.."proving thei never had faith, it was dead."

God has saved us and has given us everything we need to stand until his coming...weather we live or die....but some say he has to do it , some say they are helpless, others say it is done already so there is no need...

eternally-gratefull · Jun 30, 2014

newbirth said:

Rolls eyes. Keep on posting dude, Keep on proving to the world that you are not reading anything I say.

EG says - It is the WORK OF GOD that I had faith in him, not my own. (based on UNMERITED FAVOR or GRACE)

Newbirth responds by saying I do not understand what grace is. That I teach I came to Christ, not on His work, but on my own accord.

The two above statements are apposed to each other. Why? Because Newbirth is not reading a thing EG says, He is looking for keywords.

You guys make me laugh every time you say you know what grace means, then claim it must be earned (ie lost)

You guys make me laugh every time you use james to prove one can lose salvation. When James says NOTHING of the sort. He says MERE BELIEF will not save you. When James states that is not true. FAITH saves you.

And he proved what he said by using abraham., Who was considered righteous (saved) BEFORE HE DID ONE WORK. (gen 15: 6)

all this happend:

1. BEFORE Ishmael was born (gen 16)
2. Before the command to be circumcised was given (gen 17) and the covenant was confirmed)
3. Before Issac was born (gen 21)
4. Before Abraham Offered Issac up in sacrifice (Gen 22)

Thus we see in context.

James said abrahams works PROVED he had true faith (in response to the command from James. "Show ME your faith without your works, I will PROVE my faith by my works)

seed_time_harvest · Jun 30, 2014

newbirth said:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

If you are talking about justification by faith then its faith alone,because GOD knows if you really mean it.

If you are talking about sanctification,then I agree with what you are trying to get me to say

newbirth said

(are you trying to get me to say its faith plus good works;and this can/should be done if someone gets saved and remain alive and in this world in the body.

If you are talking about salvation and you died right after being saved then its faith alone.(GOD looks at the heart)

men will show their faith by their actions.

Romans 4:1-3

king james version(kjv)

[SUP]1.) [/SUP] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[SUP]
2.) [/SUP] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]
3.) [/SUP] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Remember that GOD is a SPIRIT.

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

You want people to accept how you interpret scripture.The penalty for man sins was paid for over 2000 years ago so to even think about or imply a man is working to earn salvation proves that you are reckless . Christ paid the price, he brings you to repentance,and he gives you the faith, all you have to do is act on the faith and you say it is trying to earn salvation. So you do nothing. Have you confessed him as Lord and Master people obey their master why don't you?

Christ died to save us from sin and death. When one is born again he is purged from his old sins and given a new start. God gives us the faith to continue in this new life free from sin, the holy scripture (the word) is the guide. So to say one is working for salvation is wrong. It is just keeping pure and spotless until he comes or we die.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 30, 2014

newbirth said:

I agree with everything you say here.

What I am confused about. Is how you can say that these people do not have eternal security. Since it is based on Christ work, and Christ sustaining them till the end. And not our work.

If you do not agree with eternal security basedi n the work of God. then you ARE believing one must earn salvation.

mailmandan · Jun 30, 2014

newbirth said:

Did Paul say that we are saved by grace through faith and works? NO. Paul said saved through faith, NOT WORKS. What other requirements do you see in Ephesians 2:8 along with faith? You don't need to add the word "alone" next to faith in that verse in order to figure out that the word faith "stands alone" in that verse in connection with receiving salvation. Did Paul say faith plus something else after faith? Grace is God's part and faith is our part.

Which means if a man says he has faith but he has no works to demonstrate that his faith is alive, then he has an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. A dead faith does not produce works in order to become a living faith but BECAUSE it's a living faith; just as a dead tree does not produce fruit in order to become a living tree but BECAUSE it's a living tree. Faith is the ROOT and works are the FRUIT. No fruit demonstrates no root. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Saved through faith, not works, yet genuine faith is demonstrated by works.

Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Jesus Christ as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Obedience which follows is works. It sounds like you are basically saying faith "is" works. You don't seem to make a distinction between faith and works. Believers produce works out of faith, but faith is the root of salvation and obedience/works which follow are the fruit.

Their unwillingness to confess Christ might throw some doubt on the complete genuineness of the faith of these men, but they may have only had a weak moment and failed to confess Christ in this situation in front of the Pharisess, but that does not necessarily mean that they did not confess Christ to others. The Apostle Peter at one point failed to confess Jesus before men (John 18:17,25-27), but later he boldly confessed Him (Acts 4:8-13). We know that Peter was saved even though he had a weak moment and the same may be true for these Jewish rulers as well. Does the text specifically say that they were not saved or is that your pre-conceived belief? If the chief rulers truly believe (trust exclusively in Christ for salvation) even though they had a weak moment, they are still saved.

Later on, we see that Peter had another weak moment. Paul even had to rebuke Peter! Read about it in (Galatians 2:11-15). "Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.." Some public confession!

This often gets misunderstood. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Believe and confess are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of 5 steps as the basis for receiving salvation is not unto salvation. Do you attend the church of Christ? You sound like a 5 stepper.

Yes, through FAITH, NOT BY WORKS.

In Romans 10:16, we see: *But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?" You can clearly see that we OBEY the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel. Refusing to OBEY the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 1:16). So which acts of obedience is salvation a consequence of? Is obedience a consequence of salvation? Who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness. (1 John 2:3; 3:10). In either sense, believers obey Him.

By refusing to believe the gospel, unbelievers have not obeyed Him (Romans 10:16). Without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:1), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh as the basis for receiving eternal life. Works salvation is not obeying Him. Many people simply obey their church, not Him. In either sense, unbelievers (no matter how religious they think they are, the Pharisees for example) do not obey Him.

kennethcadwell · Jun 30, 2014

The problem is that people want to say that us who believe in works are saying we have to do works to get salvation, or we have to earn salvation by works. This is not true in most cases. We believe salvation comes from faith, but works then must follow. You don't boast about them, and you don't use them to earn salvation for it is always your gift given by our Lord.

If you then choose to produce bad works though will you still be saved, the bible says no. However then you get the argument that they were not truly saved to begin with.

Big question: Why do people keep leaving out the scriptures of those who fall away, persevering/enduring to the end to be saved, and the others from our Lord and the apostles that state you must produce good works ?

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

seed_time_harvest said:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am not trying to get you to say anything

Romans 4:1-3

king james version(kjv)

[SUP]1.) [/SUP] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
[SUP]
2.) [/SUP] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
[SUP]
3.) [/SUP] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Remember that GOD is a SPIRIT.

I stay with James...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

kennethcadwell · Jun 30, 2014

Once again there you see the reversal of words. We are free from sin, not sin free. Sin is still apart of our lives, we just do not let them run ( reign ) our lives. If we say we are without sin, we are a lier.

seed_time_harvest · Jun 30, 2014

newbirth said:

THE same GOD that inspired James also inspired Paul and we know that GOD is not the author of confusion.
:
the way that i interpret James is that he was telling them that a person that has faith will show it in their action(good works).
A person that says that they have faith and they do things expressed by their body that does not show faith then i would question if they really have faith;
can you see how faith comes first and it will naturally produce good works.

eternally-gratefull · Jun 30, 2014

newbirth said:

I will stay with paul.

If we are saved by works, we have something to boast. We are saved by faith not works.

And stick with james. Abraham was saved before he did one work. And then did works to prove (to the world, not God (god does not need proof) he was saved.

seed_time_harvest · Jun 30, 2014

I wanted to ask those that believe that salvation is faith plus work.
When you got saved.What work did you do?
don't be shy, i'm really waiting to see what you did,that way i can understand what kind of work you are talking about?

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

seed_time_harvest said:

why do you want to put words in people mouth...If one would take time to know what it means to be saved.How the saving was done. What one is saved from , what one is saved for. what one does after one is saved. We are saved by grace through faith. Confession and obedience to Our Lord is an act of faith. Not a work for salvation. we have already been saved by grace.

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

[h=1][/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

newbirth · Jun 30, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

We are saved by grace.(he cleaned us up took away the sins and give us a new start)...through faith ....God gives us faith to live our life in obedience to his word and remain pure until he returns or we die which ever comes first.

apostolic862004 · Jul 1, 2014

I have seen this discussion a hundred times and heard alot of different beliefs about it. So let me try to come at it from a different angle:

For those who do not believe in "works" being part of salvation, just for the sake of discussion, let me re-phrase it. Do you believe that when person first hears the gospel of Jesus Christ that there is anything that the must obey? And in order to stay saved until the rapture of the church or their death, do they have to obey anything at all?

Is justification by faith alone?

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