It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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If you regard Christ as a chance-giver, instead of your Savior, how can you be part of the Church. What is your proof that you are in the Church?
What is your proof that the tradition Paul recommends is anything other than past prophetic messages from God? Where does Paul endorse future tradition?
Where is your proof of that?
What is your proof that the early Church did not have many heretics? What is your proof that men would not change the Gospel? What is your proof that a faithful remnant has not always held the true Gospel?
The point is that neither you or Atwood can produce the evidence .[/QUOTE]
the evidence is great and has been posted over & over.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
etc,
What is your proof that the tradition Paul recommends is anything other than past prophetic messages from God? Where does Paul endorse future tradition?
Where is your proof of that?
What is your proof that the early Church did not have many heretics? What is your proof that men would not change the Gospel? What is your proof that a faithful remnant has not always held the true Gospel?
The point is that neither you or Atwood can produce the evidence .[/QUOTE]
the evidence is great and has been posted over & over.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
etc,
Re: Eternal Security Passage by Athanasius
Starts with a big IF....you just love picking at pieces of scripture to suit your doctrine...in chapter 2 it states...
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Starts with a big IF....you just love picking at pieces of scripture to suit your doctrine...in chapter 2 it states...
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Atwood,
It has been shown many times in this thread alredy. The fact is after several attempts you cannot produce a text that says one is saved finitely, abslutely, upon initial faith. Eternal life is given at the end to those that overcome, not everyone that at one time believed and then fell away. YOu have dismissed so much scripture that not much is left outside of your few texts to the contrary of all the scripture you have dismissed.
You are so desparate in your attempt to force a false teaching that most of your replies are the most bizzare statements I have ever read in trying to redefine what scripture actually says.
none of your citations even menitioned the guarantee of eternal life. I explained several, they are all about ihheriting eternal life at the end, not at the beginning. Being IN Christ, participating with Christ in a relatioinship of love where a beleiver is being transformed into His Likeness is NOT a guarnatee of receiving eternal lire at the end of their lives. Many believes fall away inspite of your rewriting of scripture and false teachiong of OSAS. It just does not exist in scripture, never has, and never will.
as to logic neither does "eteranl security". But this goes to your dismissing most of the NT. And your are correct, OSAS and your concept of how God supposedly works, can only be accomplished in a predestination system. However, predestination as understood by the Reformed system of theology does not exist in scripture either. God is not transcendent in His energies. He interacts with man and the workd directly which you don't seem to grasp.
If one believes. YOu constantly dismiss the fact that there is a condition to receiving the gift of eternal life. It is not given on the basis of predestination where God chose who He was going to give it to before the foundations of the world.
Of course, because your theory rejects the purpose of why God first created man and then Christ saved mankind so that every human being could freely join with Christ to be perfected. The one valid use of the word predestinate in in Rom 8:29 where it states that those that love Him, whom He foreknew, He predestined that they would be conformed to His Image. Eph 2:4 says the same thing. Very typical, when the word is actually used in scripture, you deny it importance and purpose, but want God to predestinate the acts of man is violatioin of His express desire in creating man and then saving man.
Well, I can understand your dilemna now because you have dismissed most of scripture to the contrary of your view. But this whole thread, as presented by the opponents of your view, have amply given all the texts which shows that a believer can and does lose faith, thus lose the inheritance, unless they repent.
that's because you have limited your Bible to the few verses that you posts which do not state eternal security for any believer. It is not the scripture but your attaching a false teaching to them. That has been obvious from the beginning with all your girations to the contrary to dismiss the rest of the NT.
They possess it, but it is NOT a guarantee they shall inherit eternal life at the end. The condition is to believe. Many do not remain faithful. When one does not remain faithful, no longer believe, why would they be given eternal life? If that were so, then why not just stick to predestination and have God grant eternal life to all men since that is what He desires. Your theory does not fit scripture in the least, and in every post you make that quite obvious by the twisting and redefining of clearly written passages of scripture.
I know it must be difficult to find any in your Bible, when you either dismiss them or redefine the meaning of words. However, many have been posted in this thread already that are speaking about losing faith and even examples of loss of inheritance, some stating they were assigned with unbelievers. If you believe unbelievrs are saved as well, then you might have a point.
that is NOT the point of diaagreement.
They posserss it, but the promise has a condition attached in every single text. There is no guarantee in any of those verses that man's faith will endure. All they promise is that IF we believe we shall inherit eternal life. We possess it upon entrance into Christ, but entrance is NOT attaining eternal life. We as believers are being tested, we were created to be perfected as human beings and we do that working with the Holy Spirit. As scripture so clearly explains that there is no guarantee man can make regarding his faith. It is a constant vigilence that we remain faithful and not permit Satan to enter and remain in our lives.
If you want your theory to be valid, you need to find a text that guarantees man's faith. Dispite your constant implication of predestination whereby God is the only active agent in this world, scripture does not present it as such. Even Satan is a free agent with a will separate from God.
It is absolutely absurd to even comtemplate that Satan cannot deceive man, a believer, to leave Christ when scripture is full of his deceptive means and ways and warning to believers to be on guard. It is also absurd to think that man, with a free will, is unable to change his desires. As I stated before the theory of OsAs is sunk already with the story of Adam. God neither stops Satan nor does He stop man, or interferes with the will of each.
It has been shown many times in this thread alredy. The fact is after several attempts you cannot produce a text that says one is saved finitely, abslutely, upon initial faith. Eternal life is given at the end to those that overcome, not everyone that at one time believed and then fell away. YOu have dismissed so much scripture that not much is left outside of your few texts to the contrary of all the scripture you have dismissed.
You are so desparate in your attempt to force a false teaching that most of your replies are the most bizzare statements I have ever read in trying to redefine what scripture actually says.
none of your citations even menitioned the guarantee of eternal life. I explained several, they are all about ihheriting eternal life at the end, not at the beginning. Being IN Christ, participating with Christ in a relatioinship of love where a beleiver is being transformed into His Likeness is NOT a guarnatee of receiving eternal lire at the end of their lives. Many believes fall away inspite of your rewriting of scripture and false teachiong of OSAS. It just does not exist in scripture, never has, and never will.
as to logic neither does "eteranl security". But this goes to your dismissing most of the NT. And your are correct, OSAS and your concept of how God supposedly works, can only be accomplished in a predestination system. However, predestination as understood by the Reformed system of theology does not exist in scripture either. God is not transcendent in His energies. He interacts with man and the workd directly which you don't seem to grasp.
If one believes. YOu constantly dismiss the fact that there is a condition to receiving the gift of eternal life. It is not given on the basis of predestination where God chose who He was going to give it to before the foundations of the world.
Of course, because your theory rejects the purpose of why God first created man and then Christ saved mankind so that every human being could freely join with Christ to be perfected. The one valid use of the word predestinate in in Rom 8:29 where it states that those that love Him, whom He foreknew, He predestined that they would be conformed to His Image. Eph 2:4 says the same thing. Very typical, when the word is actually used in scripture, you deny it importance and purpose, but want God to predestinate the acts of man is violatioin of His express desire in creating man and then saving man.
Well, I can understand your dilemna now because you have dismissed most of scripture to the contrary of your view. But this whole thread, as presented by the opponents of your view, have amply given all the texts which shows that a believer can and does lose faith, thus lose the inheritance, unless they repent.
that's because you have limited your Bible to the few verses that you posts which do not state eternal security for any believer. It is not the scripture but your attaching a false teaching to them. That has been obvious from the beginning with all your girations to the contrary to dismiss the rest of the NT.
They possess it, but it is NOT a guarantee they shall inherit eternal life at the end. The condition is to believe. Many do not remain faithful. When one does not remain faithful, no longer believe, why would they be given eternal life? If that were so, then why not just stick to predestination and have God grant eternal life to all men since that is what He desires. Your theory does not fit scripture in the least, and in every post you make that quite obvious by the twisting and redefining of clearly written passages of scripture.
I know it must be difficult to find any in your Bible, when you either dismiss them or redefine the meaning of words. However, many have been posted in this thread already that are speaking about losing faith and even examples of loss of inheritance, some stating they were assigned with unbelievers. If you believe unbelievrs are saved as well, then you might have a point.
that is NOT the point of diaagreement.
They posserss it, but the promise has a condition attached in every single text. There is no guarantee in any of those verses that man's faith will endure. All they promise is that IF we believe we shall inherit eternal life. We possess it upon entrance into Christ, but entrance is NOT attaining eternal life. We as believers are being tested, we were created to be perfected as human beings and we do that working with the Holy Spirit. As scripture so clearly explains that there is no guarantee man can make regarding his faith. It is a constant vigilence that we remain faithful and not permit Satan to enter and remain in our lives.
If you want your theory to be valid, you need to find a text that guarantees man's faith. Dispite your constant implication of predestination whereby God is the only active agent in this world, scripture does not present it as such. Even Satan is a free agent with a will separate from God.
It is absolutely absurd to even comtemplate that Satan cannot deceive man, a believer, to leave Christ when scripture is full of his deceptive means and ways and warning to believers to be on guard. It is also absurd to think that man, with a free will, is unable to change his desires. As I stated before the theory of OsAs is sunk already with the story of Adam. God neither stops Satan nor does He stop man, or interferes with the will of each.
E
Ever notice this guy demands others to respect and stop attacking, yet every word this guy spews out of his mouth is a bold faced attack, hatefull and disrespectful.
Last 4 posts, and nothing pertinent to the conversation. No proof of anything, Just ad hominem attacks. Hateful willful arrogance, and outright disrespectful of anyone who disagrees with him.
Last 4 posts, and nothing pertinent to the conversation. No proof of anything, Just ad hominem attacks. Hateful willful arrogance, and outright disrespectful of anyone who disagrees with him.
Atwood,
First, your misconception of scripture and your misstatement regarding salvation puts you and your view outside of the scriptural definition of the Church. You have already described the Church in your philosophical definition.
I believe Christ is not just my Savior, but the Savior of the entire world and every human being. I believe what John 4:42 states. I also believe that God is calling all men to repentance and man freely joins and freely exists within the Body of Christ. God does not force man to be faithful.
where does it say future tradition? Paul is speaking about his tradition, the Apostolic Holy Tradition, the Gospel as it was given to all the Apostles, the Gospel as he taught it to Timothy.
I see we need continue to redefine scriptural terms to validate more false teachings.
History, The authentic, historical witness of the Holy Spirit working directly in this world through Christ's Body.
apparently you don't know the meaning of the word either. Heretics can ONLY come from within the Church. History shows that man has not changed the Gospel. The Holy Spirit has preserved both the Body and the Gospel entrusted to it without change. How can Christ change, how can Christ's body be divided?
The fact that the Body has excluded all of the false teachers so that no man has ever been able to impose his own ideas, interpretations upon the Body of Christ, the Gospel originally given to the Church.
The fact that you cannot find any man made teaching of the Church or list any man that has imposed his view upon the Church attests to its validity.
Your repeated citations do not enforce eternal security upon anyone. The term is not used in scripture and scripture clearly debunks the idea of guaranteed faith of man.
First, your misconception of scripture and your misstatement regarding salvation puts you and your view outside of the scriptural definition of the Church. You have already described the Church in your philosophical definition.
I believe Christ is not just my Savior, but the Savior of the entire world and every human being. I believe what John 4:42 states. I also believe that God is calling all men to repentance and man freely joins and freely exists within the Body of Christ. God does not force man to be faithful.
where does it say future tradition? Paul is speaking about his tradition, the Apostolic Holy Tradition, the Gospel as it was given to all the Apostles, the Gospel as he taught it to Timothy.
I see we need continue to redefine scriptural terms to validate more false teachings.
History, The authentic, historical witness of the Holy Spirit working directly in this world through Christ's Body.
apparently you don't know the meaning of the word either. Heretics can ONLY come from within the Church. History shows that man has not changed the Gospel. The Holy Spirit has preserved both the Body and the Gospel entrusted to it without change. How can Christ change, how can Christ's body be divided?
The fact that the Body has excluded all of the false teachers so that no man has ever been able to impose his own ideas, interpretations upon the Body of Christ, the Gospel originally given to the Church.
The fact that you cannot find any man made teaching of the Church or list any man that has imposed his view upon the Church attests to its validity.
Your repeated citations do not enforce eternal security upon anyone. The term is not used in scripture and scripture clearly debunks the idea of guaranteed faith of man.
E
if the obedience is done to earn salvation, Keep salvation, or not lose salvation, then it is done to EARN SALVATION, Done out of your own power, and not in the power of God. Is done to earn a wage, not because you recieved a gift. and will not be honored by God on judgment day (Great White Throne). Plain and simple.
If it is done because one has faith in the word of God. Trusts God in what he says, And out of respect and appreciation for the Love God has shown them, it glorifies God, It is produced out of a faith and gratefulness for what God has given you. And done by the power of God. And will be rewarded on judgment day (BEMA seat)
If you could realize the difference, You may finally see the true gospel of Christ.
If it is done because one has faith in the word of God. Trusts God in what he says, And out of respect and appreciation for the Love God has shown them, it glorifies God, It is produced out of a faith and gratefulness for what God has given you. And done by the power of God. And will be rewarded on judgment day (BEMA seat)
If you could realize the difference, You may finally see the true gospel of Christ.
Re: Eternal Security: Security of the Psalmist
Cassian claims:
The evidence has been posted, contrary to what Cassian says:
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you are having been saved [perfect tense, past salvation continuing in the present]
through faith [nothing else listed, only faith], and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
[quote: Cassian: eph 1: 13-14 - - this is directed at the future, not instant salvation, need to inherit it at the end.
Text like Acts 16:31 says nothing one way or the other. It uses the word believes, but that is not attaining eternal life.[/quote]
< Eph 1:
" having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have [present, not future tense] our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, in whom also we were made [past tense] a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed [instant salvation] with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest [guarantee of the future -- ES!] of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
< Rom 5:
"Being therefore justified by faith [present reality], . . .
through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had [past]
our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand [present]; and we rejoice [present] in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope: and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us [past]. For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now [present] justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled [past] to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled [present], shall we be saved [future]by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received received the reconciliation.
What a glorious statement of eternal security! It is not that we have a chance at salvation, but so long as the Lord Jesus lives we shall be saved by his life! He is the Savior, not the chance giver!
< Rom 10
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for with the heart man believeth [present],unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth [present],on him shall not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [guarantee], How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? [Salvation thus must be as instantaneous as a call is.]
Instant Salvation in Past Tense
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)
th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)
Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:
"Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19)
Cornelius was instantly at once saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:11)
Consider Eph 2:5 [our precious Lord God] "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (by grace you have been saved). "
Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. There is a basic all or nothing here.
In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.
[the Lord God] "who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" < 2 Tim 1
Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.
"he [our wonderful God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)
The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom 5:9)
Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instant.
Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)
There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.
Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.
"he who believes has everlasting life." (John 6:47)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)
"For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are saved and those who are perishing." (2 Cor 2:15)
It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
" to the power of God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who made death powerless, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, whereunto I was appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher."
Clearly 2 Tim 1 is not saying that death is abolished; it has lost its power over us Christians. It is still appointed to man once to die; & it remains true that the Lake of Fire is the 2nd death.
The us in this passage is only Christians. The passage is not irrelevant at all. The Lord saved us and called us with a holy calling. (foreknown, foreordained, called, justified, glorified - Rom 8). God saved us, salvation includes eternal life. By no means is this passage irrelevant to eternal life.
titus 3: 5 - - a three step process, Christ saved us (mankind) from death, nothing man did, and then enabled a believer to be baptised, and given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Nothing of instant salvation ,nor faith only either.
< Titus 3
But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
There is nothing about mankind being saved. And the us is not mankind, but Christians, those who have trusted the Savior. Yes, God loved mankind as provided salvation which must be received by faith in Christ. By no means is mankind washed in regeneration or renewed. Eternal life goes to whosoever believes only. We are justified by grace through faith. A man who has no faith, has not been justified.
The "we"in Titus, is not mankind.
"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; but in his own seasons manifested his word in the message, wherewith I was intrusted according to the commandment of God our Saviour; to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour."
"For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world; looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works."
The world to whom the salvation was brought, is contrasted with those who trust Christ as Savior, have faith, and are a special people of God's own possession.
The scripture above certainly "counts.
Salvation is instant when a man trusts Christ as Savior (rather than a chance-giver).
Cassian claims:
The evidence has been posted, contrary to what Cassian says:
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you are having been saved [perfect tense, past salvation continuing in the present]
through faith [nothing else listed, only faith], and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.
[quote: Cassian: eph 1: 13-14 - - this is directed at the future, not instant salvation, need to inherit it at the end.
Text like Acts 16:31 says nothing one way or the other. It uses the word believes, but that is not attaining eternal life.[/quote]
< Eph 1:
" having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: in whom we have [present, not future tense] our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, in whom also we were made [past tense] a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will; to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ: in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,— in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed [instant salvation] with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is an earnest [guarantee of the future -- ES!] of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God’s own possession, unto the praise of his glory.
< Rom 5:
"Being therefore justified by faith [present reality], . . .
through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had [past]
our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand [present]; and we rejoice [present] in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we also rejoice in our tribulations: knowing that tribulation worketh stedfastness; and stedfastness, approvedness; and approvedness, hope: and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us [past]. For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now [present] justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled [past] to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled [present], shall we be saved [future]by his life; and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received received the reconciliation.
What a glorious statement of eternal security! It is not that we have a chance at salvation, but so long as the Lord Jesus lives we shall be saved by his life! He is the Savior, not the chance giver!
< Rom 10
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach: because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: for with the heart man believeth [present],unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth [present],on him shall not be put to shame. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [guarantee], How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? [Salvation thus must be as instantaneous as a call is.]
Instant Salvation in Past Tense
“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)
th Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)
Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:
"Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19)
Cornelius was instantly at once saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:11)
Consider Eph 2:5 [our precious Lord God] "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions (by grace you have been saved). "
Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. There is a basic all or nothing here.
In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.
[the Lord God] "who has saved us and called us to a holy life -- not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time" < 2 Tim 1
Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.
"he [our wonderful God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)
The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom 5:9)
Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instant.
Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)
There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.
Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.
"he who believes has everlasting life." (John 6:47)
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)
"For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are saved and those who are perishing." (2 Cor 2:15)
It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
" to the power of God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal, but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who made death powerless, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, whereunto I was appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher."
Clearly 2 Tim 1 is not saying that death is abolished; it has lost its power over us Christians. It is still appointed to man once to die; & it remains true that the Lake of Fire is the 2nd death.
The us in this passage is only Christians. The passage is not irrelevant at all. The Lord saved us and called us with a holy calling. (foreknown, foreordained, called, justified, glorified - Rom 8). God saved us, salvation includes eternal life. By no means is this passage irrelevant to eternal life.
titus 3: 5 - - a three step process, Christ saved us (mankind) from death, nothing man did, and then enabled a believer to be baptised, and given the gift of the Holy Spirit. Nothing of instant salvation ,nor faith only either.
< Titus 3
But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
There is nothing about mankind being saved. And the us is not mankind, but Christians, those who have trusted the Savior. Yes, God loved mankind as provided salvation which must be received by faith in Christ. By no means is mankind washed in regeneration or renewed. Eternal life goes to whosoever believes only. We are justified by grace through faith. A man who has no faith, has not been justified.
The "we"in Titus, is not mankind.
"Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; but in his own seasons manifested his word in the message, wherewith I was intrusted according to the commandment of God our Saviour; to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour."
"For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us, to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly and righteously and godly in this present world; looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a people for his own possession, zealous of good works."
The world to whom the salvation was brought, is contrasted with those who trust Christ as Savior, have faith, and are a special people of God's own possession.
The scripture above certainly "counts.
Salvation is instant when a man trusts Christ as Savior (rather than a chance-giver).
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What has been shown many times is that Cassian just goes on & on presenting his own words without proving from the Bible. Thus it goes nowhere. Once in a while he actually discusses scripture.
What a tragedy for a religious person to deny that Christ is Savior and insist that He is merely a chance-giver.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
What a tragedy for a religious person to deny that Christ is Savior and insist that He is merely a chance-giver.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Eternally, again I say that you are not reading my posts. You claime above that I have not even acknowledge verses 7-8. I explained them both in post #2820.
Originally Posted by kennethcadwell
They were of the fold, that is what escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ means. They became sheep, but then turned back and got entangled with the sins of the world. Their end is worse then their beginning because if they would have continued in what they learned at the beginning, Jesus Christ, they would have had the promise of salvation, but now their end is the judgment of hell fire because they did not continue in Christ.
1. They heard the word of truth, And probably walked with Gods children (in CHURCH) Does not mean they were ever saved. I know alot of people who have done this.
2. It is worse for them. They actually had salvation on the tip of their fingers, But in the end rejected it. Now they have to go through eternity knowing that.
Nothing says they were ever saved, that would be an assumption
Now this was your response to another user. So you are saying that these people were never saved huh? Then what you are claiming is that according to this scripture, you can escape the pollution of the world through Jesus Christ and yet not be saved. Is that correct?
Also, I would like to know what happened to Adam in the Garden? Since we cannot "fall away" what exactly did Adam do when he sinned?
They were of the fold, that is what escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ means. They became sheep, but then turned back and got entangled with the sins of the world. Their end is worse then their beginning because if they would have continued in what they learned at the beginning, Jesus Christ, they would have had the promise of salvation, but now their end is the judgment of hell fire because they did not continue in Christ.
1. They heard the word of truth, And probably walked with Gods children (in CHURCH) Does not mean they were ever saved. I know alot of people who have done this.
2. It is worse for them. They actually had salvation on the tip of their fingers, But in the end rejected it. Now they have to go through eternity knowing that.
Nothing says they were ever saved, that would be an assumption
Also, I would like to know what happened to Adam in the Garden? Since we cannot "fall away" what exactly did Adam do when he sinned?
In Scripture, Chrs Never Lose Faith or Lose Salvation
That faith / belief is the only requirement for salvation, has been plastered on this forum -- too many verse for the system to tolerate it all in one post.
Since salvation is guaranteed so many times, just for trusting (believing in) Christ as Savior, it must be concluded that the believer gets salvation.
On the other had "lose salvation"or "lose faith" are concepts not found in the Bible. Instead we have faith given by God and Christ interceding that Peter's faith faith not.
And I defy any heretic to prove that Christians either lose salvation or lose faith. And don't come back with passages that don't have that terminology.
In fact such a theory demotes the Lord Jesus from Savior to "chance-giver" at best.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
That faith / belief is the only requirement for salvation, has been plastered on this forum -- too many verse for the system to tolerate it all in one post.
Since salvation is guaranteed so many times, just for trusting (believing in) Christ as Savior, it must be concluded that the believer gets salvation.
On the other had "lose salvation"or "lose faith" are concepts not found in the Bible. Instead we have faith given by God and Christ interceding that Peter's faith faith not.
And I defy any heretic to prove that Christians either lose salvation or lose faith. And don't come back with passages that don't have that terminology.
In fact such a theory demotes the Lord Jesus from Savior to "chance-giver" at best.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
God is not the enemy selfishness is
Our own and others. Think on this for a few minutes are we ever selfish? Have we harmed others and do we still from time to time depending on the situation we are in?
From birth on what do we get taught? To work to get right and is not bad to work to earn is it? We get paid a wage that we agreed to be paid correct? So we got rewarded for our work when we get paid we are paid?
Now tell me does God work this same way?
This world teachers to work for righteousness and or or to keep it righteousness that is after you received it any free gift from God includes son, is this the way of God to work and get paid? , u are we not already paid in advance freely by Christ the Son?
So I think works of love are good don't you? So do we do these works of love for rewards or because we are already rewarded with life everlasting?
If we decide to trust father through Son only where do you think that would leave us? Who is the only one faithful perfect righteous that died for you to just love you, in spite of any fault you have had or have? Will anyone, our friends or family die for us? Would any of us last through being whipped bleeding and not fight back?
Maybe today is the day to respond to this amazing sacrifice from God through son that did not fight back and went to the death for us all in our place to bring us life in the spirit by his resurrected life Father who raised him from the dead after 3 days for proof that he did die first for us all, and that by his death we are reconciled forgiven made right Holv before Father, so are we or are we not?
Faith is not complete without works and works is not complete without faith
The two go hand in hand since I have a hand and if I don't use it, it is useless right or wrong? Faith in one hand and works in the owner makes it complete take away one hand weather works or faith are you complete?
Luke 10:30-35Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 and went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Okay there were 3 all together 2 just walked by 1 did the work, so who's faith is whole. Now could one not believe (Faith) and have compassion? And the other two believe and not have compassion? So without compassion is one saved?
Our own and others. Think on this for a few minutes are we ever selfish? Have we harmed others and do we still from time to time depending on the situation we are in?
From birth on what do we get taught? To work to get right and is not bad to work to earn is it? We get paid a wage that we agreed to be paid correct? So we got rewarded for our work when we get paid we are paid?
Now tell me does God work this same way?
This world teachers to work for righteousness and or or to keep it righteousness that is after you received it any free gift from God includes son, is this the way of God to work and get paid? , u are we not already paid in advance freely by Christ the Son?
So I think works of love are good don't you? So do we do these works of love for rewards or because we are already rewarded with life everlasting?
If we decide to trust father through Son only where do you think that would leave us? Who is the only one faithful perfect righteous that died for you to just love you, in spite of any fault you have had or have? Will anyone, our friends or family die for us? Would any of us last through being whipped bleeding and not fight back?
Maybe today is the day to respond to this amazing sacrifice from God through son that did not fight back and went to the death for us all in our place to bring us life in the spirit by his resurrected life Father who raised him from the dead after 3 days for proof that he did die first for us all, and that by his death we are reconciled forgiven made right Holv before Father, so are we or are we not?
Faith is not complete without works and works is not complete without faith
The two go hand in hand since I have a hand and if I don't use it, it is useless right or wrong? Faith in one hand and works in the owner makes it complete take away one hand weather works or faith are you complete?
Luke 10:30-35Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 and went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
Okay there were 3 all together 2 just walked by 1 did the work, so who's faith is whole. Now could one not believe (Faith) and have compassion? And the other two believe and not have compassion? So without compassion is one saved?
You flash your gospel before the eyes of men and God without one supporting scripture...I say to every man obey God for whatever reason and pray that he gives us understanding in his word...
1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
E
And again You are not reading my posts. I not only saw then, But I showed how I disagreed with your explanations, You should have seen that,
Yeah you can. If your not living in deep sin, You can actually have a decent life. Although compaired to a child of Gods life. it will still be lacking. Again, I have witnessed it.
Adam was on his own, He was perfect. He is the only one who ever walked the earth besides Eve and Jesus who could live according to Gods law and save himself.
God tested his faith by placing a tree, and said will you follow me, or yourself.
Adam sinned, And died spiritually. If not for Christ suffering the death adam owed God. Adam would be doomed forever.
Adam could not be good enough after he sinned to save himself. Now matter how many good deeds, or how many times he chose to not sin, He still would have been doomed forever if not for Christ.
We are in this second stage. Our ability to be good enough to save ourselves has long since passed. the only hope we have is Christ. period.
Now amount of work, or lack of sin can pay for your sin. If you go off your own obedience, you will fall far far short of comming close to the glory of God (perfection)
Yeah you can. If your not living in deep sin, You can actually have a decent life. Although compaired to a child of Gods life. it will still be lacking. Again, I have witnessed it.
Adam was on his own, He was perfect. He is the only one who ever walked the earth besides Eve and Jesus who could live according to Gods law and save himself.
God tested his faith by placing a tree, and said will you follow me, or yourself.
Adam sinned, And died spiritually. If not for Christ suffering the death adam owed God. Adam would be doomed forever.
Adam could not be good enough after he sinned to save himself. Now matter how many good deeds, or how many times he chose to not sin, He still would have been doomed forever if not for Christ.
We are in this second stage. Our ability to be good enough to save ourselves has long since passed. the only hope we have is Christ. period.
Now amount of work, or lack of sin can pay for your sin. If you go off your own obedience, you will fall far far short of comming close to the glory of God (perfection)