How do we know we've received the Holy Spirit?

[sonofjay817]

To all the baptists...before the knee jerk response of, "you receive Him when you believe on Christ", just hold up a second.... Don't get me wrong. I was raised baptist and go to a baptist church and have a very high regard for the baptists. I'm not saying its wrong to say one receives the Holy Spirit right when one believes, but I want to know what you guys have to say about this passage.

I was reading through Acts the other day and there is an instance where Paul asked a group of believers he came upon in his travels, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" One of the believers replies that they did not and didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. Paul then lays his hand on them and they receive the Holy Spirit and begin to speak in tongues. I'm aware that the typical baptist explanation of this is that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom and it was his job to introduce the gospel message to the Jews, the samaritans, and then the gentiles and they each had a separate filling of the Holy Spirit at the time because they had to wait on Peter because he had the keys. Ok, I'm still not sure about that, but that's for a different thread.

My question is, why did Paul ask them if they had received the Holy Spirit. How were they supposed to answer such a question unless there is always a confirming manifestation of receiving the Holy Spirit? If it is as baptists say and one receives the Holy Spirit when one is saved, how do we know it? Baptists "know" it because that's what they believe the Bible teaches. These people did not have the New Testament to teach them this. Its seems to me that Paul is insinuating that there is a way for someone to know they've received the Holy Spirit, apart from some doctrinal source but from something experiential. I wonder, why did He lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit? Why didn't he just teach them they had already received Him when they believed if that's the case? And what's the thing about the laying on of hands? We don't read of any instruction by Christ to do this, but lo and behold in the book of Acts, the apostles start doing this for various anointings. Is this necessary? Have I missed out on some aspect of the Holy Spirit because I haven't had the laying on of hands?

I'm sorry if it seems I'm rambling a bit. I would love some views from those of the baptist AND the charismatic persuasion. Even though Christians have been at odds over this subject forever it seems, I believe if I have my heart open to God I can know the truth, yet right now I am still a bit confused.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Well the best I can do to answer your question is give my own personal experience. Now I did not ''receive'' the Holy Spirit when I was saved. I was ''saved'' in September of 2003, but I continued in sin for about 3 months, on December 20th 2003 I recommitted my life to God. At this point I stop smoking, drinking, doing drugs, sleeping with my girlfriend, I stop all these thing cold turkey on December 20th. I also started praying daily reading my Bible intensely and keeping a jurnal where I spoke to God and prayed for my friends. About 2 week later in the Sunday evening service I was at the alter praying, and it was like a cool breeze hit me in my face and I began to speak in tongues. This is when I receive the Holy Spirit about 3 and 1/2 months after my original commitment and 2 weeks after my true conversion. Now you can debate this with theological or doctrinal arguments, but this is my own personal experience, not a theological teaching.

 

[sonofjay817]

Well the best I can do to answer your question is give my own personal experience. Now I did not ''receive'' the Holy Spirit when I was saved. I was ''saved'' in September of 2003, but I continued in sin for about 3 months, on December 20th 2003 I recommitted my life to God. At this point I stop smoking, drinking, doing drugs, sleeping with my girlfriend, I stop all these thing cold turkey on December 20th. I also started praying daily reading my Bible intensely and keeping a jurnal where I spoke to God and prayed for my friends. About 2 week later in the Sunday evening service I was at the alter praying, and it was like a cool breeze hit me in my face and I began to speak in tongues. This is when I receive the Holy Spirit about 3 and 1/2 months after my original commitment and 2 weeks after my true conversion. Now you can debate this with theological or doctrinal arguments, but this is my own personal experience, not a theological teaching.

I very much respect your personal experience for personal testimony is a powerful witness though it does always have to be checked by scripture. I have a question for you. Did you go to a church that taught all Christians should speak in tongues? Were you seeking or desiring tongues at the time? I'm not trying to poke holes in your experience. I actually find your testimony powerful and interesting. I just want to cover all my bases. I have a problem with churches who have classes where people practice speaking in tongues. People are told to just start making a noise and let the Spirit take over and then they learn how to do it better and better over time. I once dated a girl who told me when she first started speaking in tongues it was crude like when a babe is learning to speak but it got better and more developed over time. I had a problem with that. When a baby is learning to speak, he is learning and speaking by his own power; the power of his flesh. When someone speaks in tongues, it should be in the power of the Spirit; the fully developed, fully capable, fully mature Spirit if I may put it that way without sounding irreverant.

I have no doubt some do fake it. I'm sure you would probably agree with that. If the gift of tongues is indeed active today, I still think some do it in the flesh, or perhaps something even more sinister. I think of Cornelius in the book of Acts when Peter brought the gospel to the gentiles. The scriptures say Peter was preaching the gospel and while he spoke they believed and began speaking in tongues. Now, I don't believe they knew anything about tongues before that. I don't believe they sought it or desired it. They believed on Christ and the Spirit filled them and they seemingly unexpectedly, just began to do it. Now, my point isn't to say in this case it WAS simultaneous with saving knowledge so this must be how it always should happen. My point is, seeking it and desiring it obviously wasn't a prerequisite in their case. They were just merely open to God and they believed on Christ, or at least, that's the impression I get when I read the account.

So, did it catch you sort of by surprise or were you hoping for it and waiting for it? I'm not going to try to invalidate your experience by asking this, because I don't think its necessarily wrong to hope for it or ask for it. I just want to know how it happened for you and what your thoughts are on these things.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

No I was not asking for tongues when I was filled, just at the alter praying. Also I did go to a church that believed in tongues, but it is not something they push on people or teach us how to do nor do they believe you must speak in tongues to be saved, as you probably noted from my first post, it was weeks after my true conversion that I received the Holy Spireit,so I obviously do not think it is necessary for conversion. In full discloser I was brought up Pentecostal (although I never gave my heart to God as a child, and hadn't went to church for about 13 years between my childhood and my conversion) so I never doubted tongues was real. However it is not something I was searching for when I received the Holy Spirit. My only goal was a closer walk with God.

 

[NazariteNation]

Great testimony Onwings.

Here's mine if it helps. I was raised in the Holiness faith which could be considered a more "traditional" form of Pentecostalism. I have seen things both the miraculous and the ridiculous in my lifetime which is why I approach everything deemed "spiritual" with great caution. To be completely honest, I was originally saved as a teenager and, looking back, had even operated in the gift of discernment even though I didn't fully understand it at the time. However, as I got older and a little wiser I began to ask questions about various traditions that to me just didn't make sense. My questions weren't welcome and it didn't take long for me to feel as though I wasn't welcome either. So being a teen, I did what any other teenager would do. I rebeled... not so much against God but the church.

Now keep in mind I still believed in God and read the bible however I was looking for answers to some very big questions and if the church was unable to answer them, I wasn't afraid to look elsewhere. That's when began to familiarize myself with other religions. Not because I didn't believe in Yahweh and that Jesus Christ, His son, was the way, the truth and the life. I simply wanted to know why there were so many "gods" and just who was the real deal. Needless to say I went on a twenty year journey that only lead me back to where I started... at the foot of the cross! Praise God!

Anyways I recommitted my life to Christ a few years back. The first thing God did was ignite within me a passion for today's teens so when the opportunity opened up to work with them I jumped at the chance. After all I don't want them to wander away from God like I did. After a year or so, the youth pastor asked me if I would be willing to teach our Sunday school high school class. I was shocked and felt as though I was completely unready to do so however I felt the Holy Spirit nudging me to do it.

It just so happens I had already made plans to attend a mens retreat that weekend. So I told the youth pastor that I would pray about it and get back to him the following week. Through out entire time at the retreat I prayed "Lord if you want me to do this, I am not going to do it without you. I can't do it without you. If it be your will, then fill me with your Holy Spirit." At last service of the conference, those holding the conference was like, there are some people here seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, if that's you please come forward we would like to pray with you. I went to the front not knowing or expecting what was going to happen and as I prayed it felt as though electricity began to course through my body and I began speaking in an unknown tongue.

However, if you feel that you need proof as whether or not what I experienced was the Holy Spirit or not, let me say this. Through out the last two or so years that I have been teaching Sunday School, Icannot count the number of times (several) that I felt compelled by the Holy spirit to teach on a certain subject only to walk into the sanctuary afterward for Sunday morning service and only to hear our pastor preach on the exact same subject. Both me and my teens freak out a little when it happens because I have absolutely no idea / input what so ever as to what our pastor is going to preach that day.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

That gave me goose bumps NN, God is good.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I think experience is very important and yes having come from a traditional church upbringing myself I can only say I first spoke in tongues after 3 years of seeking, praying searching for something more real in my christian walk. I think I did seek to pray in tongues as well as the infilling of the Spirit having realised it was real and necessary for us to have. I came to that conclusion from reading many books about it and of course the bible. I personally thought it was abnormal or strange to only believe half the bible about believing and repenting, and ignore the bits in Acts about receiving the power of the Spirit. It was only until I relaxed my objections and ideas and questions (which were all forms of doubt) to the experience that I was open enough to receive it and I started speaking in tongues during a personal quiet time. And yes that was accompanied by various feelings of extreme joy (laughter), peace, tingly or cool sensations. So I don't believe laying on of hands is necessary although I've heard from others that it certainly helps a person to recieve. I think it should be possible to experience the Spirit. I'm sure we've all felt love, joy, peace etc of the Spirit in our hearts, or from another person or in a place of worship. Why would the Spirit be called "another comforter" by Christ if He could not comfort and make you feel better. I think common sense would tell a person that when they receive the Spirit of God who formed the earth and raised Christ from the dead.. they will certainly know it or feel something .

 

[Shawn]

To all the baptists...before the knee jerk response of, "you receive Him when you believe on Christ", just hold up a second.... Don't get me wrong. I was raised baptist and go to a baptist church and have a very high regard for the baptists. I'm not saying its wrong to say one receives the Holy Spirit right when one believes, but I want to know what you guys have to say about this passage.

I was reading through Acts the other day and there is an instance where Paul asked a group of believers he came upon in his travels, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" One of the believers replies that they did not and didn't even know there was a Holy Spirit. Paul then lays his hand on them and they receive the Holy Spirit and begin to speak in tongues. I'm aware that the typical baptist explanation of this is that Peter was given the keys to the kingdom and it was his job to introduce the gospel message to the Jews, the samaritans, and then the gentiles and they each had a separate filling of the Holy Spirit at the time because they had to wait on Peter because he had the keys. Ok, I'm still not sure about that, but that's for a different thread.

My question is, why did Paul ask them if they had received the Holy Spirit. How were they supposed to answer such a question unless there is always a confirming manifestation of receiving the Holy Spirit? If it is as baptists say and one receives the Holy Spirit when one is saved, how do we know it? Baptists "know" it because that's what they believe the Bible teaches. These people did not have the New Testament to teach them this. Its seems to me that Paul is insinuating that there is a way for someone to know they've received the Holy Spirit, apart from some doctrinal source but from something experiential. I wonder, why did He lay hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit? Why didn't he just teach them they had already received Him when they believed if that's the case? And what's the thing about the laying on of hands? We don't read of any instruction by Christ to do this, but lo and behold in the book of Acts, the apostles start doing this for various anointings. Is this necessary? Have I missed out on some aspect of the Holy Spirit because I haven't had the laying on of hands?

I'm sorry if it seems I'm rambling a bit. I would love some views from those of the baptist AND the charismatic persuasion. Even though Christians have been at odds over this subject forever it seems, I believe if I have my heart open to God I can know the truth, yet right now I am still a bit confused.

The first passage you're referring to if my memory serves me, I don't think is about saved Christians. They didn't even know what the Holy Spirit was so Paul asks them to what they were baptized and they reply to John's Baptism. He then talks to them, baptizes them in the name of Jesus, and then lays hands on them so they receive the Holy Spirit.

BUT, there's a more interesting story in Acts that Charismatics/Pentecostals point to for their theology. Philip the evangelist preaches to a group (I think Samiritans) and they most certainly are saved. Then when the Apostles hear it Peter and John come to them, lay hands on them, and then they also receive the spirit. The passage says that He (The Holy Spirit) had not yet fallen on any of them. Even though they were saved. I think the common non-charismatic way to look at this is that the Holy Spirit came to different groups for the first time in 3 parts, the Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans.

I don't know why they laid hands on them. God meant it to be that way for whatever reason whether it was symbolic or if the Apostles had a special gift to do so, I'm not sure. It is interesting that Philip worked miracles among them, yet the Apostles had to come to do that though. Mahogany, you're right about the laying on of hands not always being necessary. When Peter preached to Cornelius he didn't lay any hands on them, but the Holy Spirit fell upon them as Peter spoke the Word. So there's your Biblical example that it can happen just by hearing the Word too. That was a sign to Peter that the Holy Spirit was for the Gentiles as well.

Now, I'm not even Charismatic or Pentecostal, but this is the way I always understood the more prominent denominations of those types currently think of it. I'm sure it differs from denominations to denomination. But at least the big ones like The Assemblies of God and The Church of God I thought believe that there's a difference in the filling or indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is a 2nd blessing after a time of cleaning your life up or sanctification. The Baptism anoints the person with power for ministry and witnessing and gives them gifts of the Spirit. So they believe that all saved Christians receive the indwelling Spirit upon getting saved. Immediately just as Christ Himself said that when we believe He and the Father will come into us and dwell with us. (Through the Holy Spirit) BUT, they think the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a giving of gifts and power and a 2nd experience. They note the differences in scripture between passages that talk about Christ coming into your heart, the Spirit FILLING, INDWELLING, and being INSIDE the person, and the baptism which is talked about in the Bible as the Spirit FALLING UPON the believer. One fills, the other falls on them. One is for all who are saved, the next is for those who have a period of cleaning up their lives and then are anointed with power and gifts.

That point of view also means that those Pentecostals/ Charismatics don't think that Baptists, Methodists, etc. are not saved and don't have the Holy Spirit, they just think they don't have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus will not operate in the Gifts.

Mahogany and Onwings, I'm interested to know if that's how you see it too? Do you think there's a difference between being filled or indwelled upon salvation and later Baptism for power and gifts? Or do you think it's one thing and those who haven't experiences it don't have any part of the Holy Spirit at all? And would that mean by extension that they're not even saved unless they manifest a gift?

 

[onwingsaseagles]

Now, I'm not even Charismatic or Pentecostal, but this is the way I always understood the more prominent denominations of those types currently think of it. I'm sure it differs from denominations to denomination. But at least the big ones like The Assemblies of God and The Church of God I thought believe that there's a difference in the filling or indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which is a 2nd blessing after a time of cleaning your life up or sanctification. The Baptism anoints the person with power for ministry and witnessing and gives them gifts of the Spirit. So they believe that all saved Christians receive the indwelling Spirit upon getting saved. Immediately just as Christ Himself said that when we believe He and the Father will come into us and dwell with us. (Through the Holy Spirit) BUT, they think the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a giving of gifts and power and a 2nd experience. They note the differences in scripture between passages that talk about Christ coming into your heart, the Spirit FILLING, INDWELLING, and being INSIDE the person, and the baptism which is talked about in the Bible as the Spirit FALLING UPON the believer. One fills, the other falls on them. One is for all who are saved, the next is for those who have a period of cleaning up their lives and then are anointed with power and gifts.

That point of view also means that those Pentecostals/ Charismatics don't think that Baptists, Methodists, etc. are not saved and don't have the Holy Spirit, they just think they don't have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus will not operate in the Gifts.

Mahogany and Onwings, I'm interested to know if that's how you see it too? Do you think there's a difference between being filled or indwelled upon salvation and later Baptism for power and gifts? Or do you think it's one thing and those who haven't experiences it don't have any part of the Holy Spirit at all? And would that mean by extension that they're not even saved unless they manifest a gift?

I think you got it, this is what I believe. We are all filled with the Holy Spirit when we are saved, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit is something different that can happen at salvation or afterwards. One needs the baptism of the Holy Spirit to opporate in the gifts of the Spirit, but it is not necessary for salvation.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Mahogany and Onwings, I'm interested to know if that's how you see it too? Do you think there's a difference between being filled or indwelled upon salvation and later Baptism for power and gifts?

Yes how you described is how I see it. I would add that I don't think there are any set rules from God's point of view as to the order or timing of the events. Pentecostal denominations may tend to formalise a set doctrine based on how they interpret how it should happen but I don't think God is that rigid. A person may be empowered with the Spirit at the very moment of belief, which I think is what happened to Cornelius and his friends when Peter was preaching to them in Acts 10:46 and this was before they were even water baptised. I've also read testimonies of drug addicts or homosexuals who have been powerfully delivered by the power of the Spirit from their problems at the moment of conversion. So I believe it happens. But I was raised in a traditional church which was caught up in the so-called "charismatic renewal" movement of the 70's 80's here in Australia. So I have been isolated from a lot of the "pentecostalmania" if you like, and don't necessarily agree with all the practices and teachings of the AOG churches for example.

Why didn't I get this experience at conversion? I don't know, maybe I never asked for it, never realised I could. ("you have not because you ask not"), and Jesus did say, that we can ask God and He will give us the gift of the Spirit (luke 11:13). That leads me to believe the receiving the power of the Spirit is something to be asked for, not necessarily automatically given by God at conversion. It's obvious in Acts 8:15 that Peter had to pray and ask for them to have it. So it's not automatically given by God, and Peter didn't assume they had it just because they received the Word of God and were water baptised ..which it says they had been (Acts 8:16).

I don't know why it's two experiences.. maybe it's to give a person some christian experience and faith-building/ testing before being entrusted with God's power. The disciples walked with Christ for 1 (or was it 3) years, before they received the Spirit at pentecost. However in Acts it seems the apostles were pretty quick to water baptise and lay hands and Spirit-baptise a person after conversion. But then there's Simon (Acts 8:13), who despite believing, being water baptised and I assume being baptised in the Spirit, his heart was still not quite right with God, so he had some more repenting to do. Maybe he would have benefited from a few months counselling or a short-course on what it means to be a christian before-hand lol.

So from my personal bible study I think the view of two experiences is biblically sound. The best example for me is that even Jesus who was the Son of God from the moment of conception, had the Holy Spirit come down (outward) upon Him like a dove at his water baptism. Why did the Son of God need the Spirit to come down upon Him if he already had the Spirit? I think it was for Jesus to be empowered for ministry since it was only after that experience that he started doing all his miracles and such. There's really no record of Jesus casting out devils or healing the sick etc prior to his baptisms.

Or do you think it's one thing and those who haven't experiences it don't have any part of the Holy Spirit at all? And would that mean by extension that they're not even saved unless they manifest a gift?

I believe a person who truly believes in Christ certainly has the Spirit:
1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Shawn]

Onwingsaseagles and Mahoganysnail, thanks for the answer to my question.

Mahogany, I found this to be very interesting and something I never thought about.

So from my personal bible study I think the view of two experiences is biblically sound. The best example for me is that even Jesus who was the Son of God from the moment of conception, had the Holy Spirit come down (outward) upon Him like a dove at his water baptism. Why did the Son of God need the Spirit to come down upon Him if he already had the Spirit? I think it was for Jesus to be empowered for ministry since it was only after that experience that he started doing all his miracles and such. There's really no record of Jesus casting out devils or healing the sick etc prior to his baptisms.

So thanks for giving such a thorough response as you always seem to do!

God Bless

 

[sonofjay817]

Onwingsaseagles and Mahoganysnail, thanks for the answer to my question.

Mahogany, I found this to be very interesting and something I never thought about.



So thanks for giving such a thorough response as you always seem to do!

God Bless

I found this very interesting as well and hadn't thought of it that way.

Also, I have a question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles; I read something recently that said on the day of Pentecost, tongues were given not for preaching the gospel, but for praising God. They were directed to God and not to men. This would sort of make sense to me because the people around accused them of being drunk. It doesn't really seem to me that they would seem drunk if they were merely preaching the gospel. However, if they were exuberantly praising God it seems more understandable that they could be accused of being sauced. Would you agree with this view of the tongues on Pentecost?

Baptists say that since the Bible is complete and the gospel has been established around the world, tongues is no longer needed to spread the gospel and have passed away. However, if tongues is a means of praising God, I can't think of any reason to think this should pass away unless the Bible specifically says so and I have yet to see anything in the Bible that does this. Baptists or other non-charismatics, do you have a rebuttal?

One more question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles. What do you think about the Toronto Blessing and Brownsville Revival type stuff where people laugh for hours, roar like lions, cluck like chickens, oink like pigs, get frozen to the floor for hours, and say its all a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I personally reject this sort of thing. If there is tongues today, I feel it will be in an atmosphere that is not obsessive about subjective experience and a selfish desire for elation, but rather a good balance of sound doctrine, the teaching of the word, and accompanied by joyful praise and exalting God while minimizing self.

 

[onwingsaseagles]

I found this very interesting as well and hadn't thought of it that way.

Also, I have a question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles; I read something recently that said on the day of Pentecost, tongues were given not for preaching the gospel, but for praising God. They were directed to God and not to men. This would sort of make sense to me because the people around accused them of being drunk. It doesn't really seem to me that they would seem drunk if they were merely preaching the gospel. However, if they were exuberantly praising God it seems more understandable that they could be accused of being sauced. Would you agree with this view of the tongues on Pentecost?

Baptists say that since the Bible is complete and the gospel has been established around the world, tongues is no longer needed to spread the gospel and have passed away. However, if tongues is a means of praising God, I can't think of any reason to think this should pass away unless the Bible specifically says so and I have yet to see anything in the Bible that does this. Baptists or other non-charismatics, do you have a rebuttal?

One more question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles. What do you think about the Toronto Blessing and Brownsville Revival type stuff where people laugh for hours, roar like lions, cluck like chickens, oink like pigs, get frozen to the floor for hours, and say its all a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I personally reject this sort of thing. If there is tongues today, I feel it will be in an atmosphere that is not obsessive about subjective experience and a selfish desire for elation, but rather a good balance of sound doctrine, the teaching of the word, and accompanied by joyful praise and exalting God while minimizing self.

I agree when we speak in tongues many times it is strickly to praise God, however the empowerment of the Holy Spirit was so that we could witness with boldness and receive the other gifts of the Spirit such as healing, discernment prophesies ect..There is also the Spiritual gift of tongues that is a meesage to the church that need and interpreter (someone with the Sopiritual gift of interpretation of tongues) Check out 1st Corinthians 12:8-11 and 1st Corinthians 14:27-28


Some people do fake things everything God does satan sends his people out to pollute, mock and immulate.

 

[pinky]

Dear friends, here is my testimony, I to was brought up Baptist, was baptized when I was 10 years old, however I started useing drugs as a teenager and then became an alcoholic, I started going to non- denominational churches when I was around 20 years old and found I enjoyed it more, it seemed to leave a more lasting effect on me after church was over, in Feb. 1990, I received the bapism of the Holy Spirit and began speaking in tongues, I think Kenneth Hagin gave an excellant example why this is so important, at times we tend to pray for family members, friends and situations that we are aware of, but the Holy Spirit knows all things, Kenneth Hagin told a story once about how he woke up at 3:15 in the morning one time and felt a strong urge to pray in tongues, he began praying for a few minutes and then his phone rang, it was a relitive of his calling to say his brother had been in an accident, thank God his brother was ok, Kenneth believed the Spirit woke him up to pray for his brother. There have been times in my life that I feel led to pray in tongues, and although I do not know what I am praying about,the Spirit does, take care friends....

 

[onwingsaseagles]

There have been times in my life that I feel led to pray in tongues, and although I do not know what I am praying about,the Spirit does.

Excellent point

 

[MahogonySnail]

Also, I have a question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles; I read something recently that said on the day of Pentecost, tongues were given not for preaching the gospel, but for praising God. They were directed to God and not to men. This would sort of make sense to me because the people around accused them of being drunk. It doesn't really seem to me that they would seem drunk if they were merely preaching the gospel. However, if they were exuberantly praising God it seems more understandable that they could be accused of being sauced. Would you agree with this view of the tongues on Pentecost?

hey SonofJay, yes I agree witih what you said, as far I as read those verses, some heard them speaking in their own languages and praising God, and others didn't (the ones who heard them sounding like drunk men). But it could mean they both praised God and sounded drunk (or crazy/wild perhaps?), I'm not sure about that. Pity that video cameras wasn't invented in those days.
I think what's relevant is that Peter did not preach the Gospel to them in tongues in their native languages, Peter preached in a language they could all understand, in their everyday language.
The whole "tongues is for preaching only" argument I don't think has much biblical support. And in practice, those of us who speak in tongues can't just go up to any foreign non-believer, start speaking in tongues and expect the words to be the complete Gospel in the language of that foreign person.
Chances are we would sound drunk , and they would not be able to understand, unless God according to His will, used our tongues for that specific purpose of declaring the Gospel.



One more question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles. What do you think about the Toronto Blessing and Brownsville Revival type stuff where people laugh for hours, roar like lions, cluck like chickens, oink like pigs, get frozen to the floor for hours, and say its all a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I personally reject this sort of thing. If there is tongues today, I feel it will be in an atmosphere that is not obsessive about subjective experience and a selfish desire for elation, but rather a good balance of sound doctrine, the teaching of the word, and accompanied by joyful praise and exalting God while minimizing self.

I grew up in a traditional church which used the gifts as I believe they are supposed to be used - in a respectful, quiet setting. It's just like a study or bible group, except as 1 Corinthians says, each has their turn, if one is speaking the other is quiet etc. One person has a word of knowledge, the other has a prophecy etc, each has their turn etc.

Laughter , frozen to the floor - that could be God, or an angel. Laughter is certainly a byproduct of extreme joy of being filled with the Spirit. Frozen, its possible if a person is so overwhelmed by God's power. Animal noises on the other hand.. probably not God. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a demon either though. A person could be just have fun and get a bit crazy. Spiritual discernment is needed to really know for sure.

Toronto Blessing -it's a mixture. And even charismatic or pentecostal teachers like Derek Prince disagree with it. He suggested that people sounding like chickens manifested an animal spirit, not God. Don't quote me I'm paraphrasing from something I think I read of Prince's: In Africa where he worked, as many people there in the natives worshipped these animal gods or were animists or something like that, if they worshipped an elephant god they would manifest like an elephant and start head-butting trees and things like that, if they worshipped a snake they would start wriggling on the ground like a snake.

So yeah..
That's the difference between "charismatics' and "pentecostals" I guess.. charismatics is the expression of the gifts in traditional churches, pentecostals a bit more flamboyant about them.
There are also movements within pentecostals, such as "neo-pentecostalism", and even old traditional pentecostals have disagreed with those movements, because there is no discernment of spirits. It's sort of a "anything goes" kind of thing, and it's open door for any new-ager types etc to come in and spread their false ideas, about portals, spiritual dynamics, or whatever else. A spiritual manifestation in a church is not necessarily God. Even though we like to think that satan would never dare step foot inside our wonderful stain-glassed windowed church, and keeps his shoes at the door - he doesn't.

 

[sonofjay817]

Also, I have a question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles; I read something recently that said on the day of Pentecost, tongues were given not for preaching the gospel, but for praising God. They were directed to God and not to men. This would sort of make sense to me because the people around accused them of being drunk. It doesn't really seem to me that they would seem drunk if they were merely preaching the gospel. However, if they were exuberantly praising God it seems more understandable that they could be accused of being sauced. Would you agree with this view of the tongues on Pentecost?

hey SonofJay, yes I agree witih what you said, as far I as read those verses, some heard them speaking in their own languages and praising God, and others didn't (the ones who heard them sounding like drunk men). But it could mean they both praised God and sounded drunk (or crazy/wild perhaps?), I'm not sure about that. Pity that video cameras wasn't invented in those days.
I think what's relevant is that Peter did not preach the Gospel to them in tongues in their native languages, Peter preached in a language they could all understand, in their everyday language.
The whole "tongues is for preaching only" argument I don't think has much biblical support. And in practice, those of us who speak in tongues can't just go up to any foreign non-believer, start speaking in tongues and expect the words to be the complete Gospel in the language of that foreign person.
Chances are we would sound drunk , and they would not be able to understand, unless God according to His will, used our tongues for that specific purpose of declaring the Gospel.



One more question for Mahogany and Onwingsaseagles. What do you think about the Toronto Blessing and Brownsville Revival type stuff where people laugh for hours, roar like lions, cluck like chickens, oink like pigs, get frozen to the floor for hours, and say its all a manifestation of the Holy Spirit? I personally reject this sort of thing. If there is tongues today, I feel it will be in an atmosphere that is not obsessive about subjective experience and a selfish desire for elation, but rather a good balance of sound doctrine, the teaching of the word, and accompanied by joyful praise and exalting God while minimizing self.

I grew up in a traditional church which used the gifts as I believe they are supposed to be used - in a respectful, quiet setting. It's just like a study or bible group, except as 1 Corinthians says, each has their turn, if one is speaking the other is quiet etc. One person has a word of knowledge, the other has a prophecy etc, each has their turn etc.

Laughter , frozen to the floor - that could be God, or an angel. Laughter is certainly a byproduct of extreme joy of being filled with the Spirit. Frozen, its possible if a person is so overwhelmed by God's power. Animal noises on the other hand.. probably not God. Doesn't necessarily mean it's a demon either though. A person could be just have fun and get a bit crazy. Spiritual discernment is needed to really know for sure.

Toronto Blessing -it's a mixture. And even charismatic or pentecostal teachers like Derek Prince disagree with it. He suggested that people sounding like chickens manifested an animal spirit, not God. Don't quote me I'm paraphrasing from something I think I read of Prince's: In Africa where he worked, as many people there in the natives worshipped these animal gods or were animists or something like that, if they worshipped an elephant god they would manifest like an elephant and start head-butting trees and things like that, if they worshipped a snake they would start wriggling on the ground like a snake.

So yeah..
That's the difference between "charismatics' and "pentecostals" I guess.. charismatics is the expression of the gifts in traditional churches, pentecostals a bit more flamboyant about them.
There are also movements within pentecostals, such as "neo-pentecostalism", and even old traditional pentecostals have disagreed with those movements, because there is no discernment of spirits. It's sort of a "anything goes" kind of thing, and it's open door for any new-ager types etc to come in and spread their false ideas, about portals, spiritual dynamics, or whatever else. A spiritual manifestation in a church is not necessarily God. Even though we like to think that satan would never dare step foot inside our wonderful stain-glassed windowed church, and keeps his shoes at the door - he doesn't.

Hmmm, very interesting. I'm very much enjoying this dialogue. Good post. Thx!

 

[robertfiore]

You recieve the Holy Spirit the moment you are born again. That doesn't mean that you are walking in the spirit tho. Read Romans, chapter 8. Also, check out 1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 1:13-14. After you have read these passages, read John 3:5-16, and see what Christ said about recieving the Holy Spirit. Any more questions you may have I will glad to answer. In Christ, Robert Fiore [email protected]

 

[roaringkitten]

amen robert!

 

[christiancanadian]

Great testimony Onwings.

Here's mine if it helps. I was raised in the Holiness faith which could be considered a more "traditional" form of Pentecostalism. I have seen things both the miraculous and the ridiculous in my lifetime which is why I approach everything deemed "spiritual" with great caution. To be completely honest, I was originally saved as a teenager and, looking back, had even operated in the gift of discernment even though I didn't fully understand it at the time. However, as I got older and a little wiser I began to ask questions about various traditions that to me just didn't make sense. My questions weren't welcome and it didn't take long for me to feel as though I wasn't welcome either. So being a teen, I did what any other teenager would do. I rebeled... not so much against God but the church.

Now keep in mind I still believed in God and read the bible however I was looking for answers to some very big questions and if the church was unable to answer them, I wasn't afraid to look elsewhere. That's when began to familiarize myself with other religions. Not because I didn't believe in Yahweh and that Jesus Christ, His son, was the way, the truth and the life. I simply wanted to know why there were so many "gods" and just who was the real deal. Needless to say I went on a twenty year journey that only lead me back to where I started... at the foot of the cross! Praise God!

Anyways I recommitted my life to Christ a few years back. The first thing God did was ignite within me a passion for today's teens so when the opportunity opened up to work with them I jumped at the chance. After all I don't want them to wander away from God like I did. After a year or so, the youth pastor asked me if I would be willing to teach our Sunday school high school class. I was shocked and felt as though I was completely unready to do so however I felt the Holy Spirit nudging me to do it.

It just so happens I had already made plans to attend a mens retreat that weekend. So I told the youth pastor that I would pray about it and get back to him the following week. Through out entire time at the retreat I prayed "Lord if you want me to do this, I am not going to do it without you. I can't do it without you. If it be your will, then fill me with your Holy Spirit." At last service of the conference, those holding the conference was like, there are some people here seeking the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, if that's you please come forward we would like to pray with you. I went to the front not knowing or expecting what was going to happen and as I prayed it felt as though electricity began to course through my body and I began speaking in an unknown tongue.

However, if you feel that you need proof as whether or not what I experienced was the Holy Spirit or not, let me say this. Through out the last two or so years that I have been teaching Sunday School, Icannot count the number of times (several) that I felt compelled by the Holy spirit to teach on a certain subject only to walk into the sanctuary afterward for Sunday morning service and only to hear our pastor preach on the exact same subject. Both me and my teens freak out a little when it happens because I have absolutely no idea / input what so ever as to what our pastor is going to preach that day.

Hey, I was kinda blown away by your testimony because you use the very same words that I feel explain my experience. I feel absolutely compelled to tell my true story. The only word I can think of to describe it good enough is "compelled". It's like I feel an obligation that it just wouldn't feel right to remain silent or inactive. I guess I feel "obligated" as well. That's a good word too. Praise God, he showed me truth about so-called "aliens" (which are demons, but the phenomenon is really happening...but again, they're demons). If it wasn't for God, I'd still be thinking "aliens" exist. In reality, nothing is further from the truth. Once I realized demons are real, I fully accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour and I know the Bible is totally true. You also mentioned the Pastor preaching exactly what you is happening! This happened to me. When I saw demons I started warning my family and others that hell is real and 'good' people can go to hell if they don't accept Jesus! That's what was preached 2 Sundays in a row! My wife was shocked because it was obvious it was God doing the talking! Amen!