It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[newbirth]

I made a typo, I meant "never," not "ever," in discussing the Parable of the 4 Soils.

Correction below:

Receiving the word and believing it, is not the same thing as receiving the Lord Jesus and believing in Him as Savior. You can believe things that the Bible says without trusting Christ as Savior. Indeed, that truth must be well illustrated right here in this forum, as so many claim to receive God's Word, the scripture, yet they regard Christ as only a chance-giver, instead of their Savior; the word has been received by some who never let it take root.

tell me who is lying ....You...Receiving the word and believing it, is not the same thing as receiving the Lord Jesus and believing in Him as Savior. or John ...John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

or Paul.....[SUP]13 [/SUP]For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[Atwood]

Evidence of E S is Found in "Church Fathers"

What the so-called "Church Fathers" say on Eternal Security is an academic exercise; since it is God's Word, not religious tradition which proves truth. But after a little internet search & a look at my copy of Kelly's Early Christian Doctrines, I find that Augustine records that there were those who believed in eternal security and also that Jerome believed it & probably others, others besides the universalists like Origen. Basil records that most ordinary Christians believed in eternal security also, even if it involved a period of purgatory. (p. 483 of Kelly).

I give an internet quote:

Augustine wrote about the large variety of views of salvation that existed in his day, including some that involved some form of eternal security:

"I must now, I see, enter the lists of amicable controversy with those tender-hearted Christians who decline to believe that any, . . . of those whom the . . . Judge may pronounce worthy . . . hell, shall suffer eternally, and who suppose that they shall be delivered after a fixed term of punishment . . . In respect of this matter, Origen . . . believed that even the devil himself and his angels . . . should be delivered from their torment, . . . . But the Church, not without reason, condemned him for this and other errors...

There are others, . . . who, . . . attribute to God a still greater compassion towards men. . . . when the judgment comes, mercy will prevail. . . .

So, too, there are others who promise this deliverance from eternal punishment, not, indeed, to all men, but only to those who have been washed in Christian baptism, and who become partakers of the body of Christ, no matter how they have lived, or what heresy or impiety they have fallen into. They ground this opinion on the saying of Jesus, '. . . If a man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever.' Therefore, say they, it follows that these persons must be delivered from death eternal, and at one time or other be introduced to everlasting life.

There are others still who make this promise . . . only to the Catholics, however badly they have lived. . . . in the catholic Church, they shall not die eternally, but at one time or other obtain eternal life; and all that wickedness of theirs shall not avail to make their punishment eternal, but only proportionately long and severe....

But, say they [others], the catholic Christians have Christ for a foundation, and they have not fallen away from union with Him, no matter how depraved a life they have built on this foundation, as wood, hay, stubble; and accordingly the well-directed faith by which Christ is their foundation will suffice to deliver them some time from the continuance of that fire, though it be with loss, since those things they have built on it shall be burned." (The City Of God, 21:17-20, 21:22, 21:26)

Some other examples:

"Saint Jerome, though an enemy of Origen, was, when it came to salvation, more of an Origenist than Ambrose. He believed that all sinners, all mortal beings, with the exception of Satan, atheists, and the ungodly, would be saved: 'Just as we believe that the torments of the Devil, of all the deniers of God, of the ungodly who have said in their hearts, 'there is no God,' will be eternal, so too do we believe that the judgment of Christian sinners, whose works will be tried and purged in fire will be moderate and mixed with clemency.' Furthermore, 'He who with all his spirit has placed his faith in Christ, even if he die in sin, shall by his faith live forever.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"Jerome develops the same distinction, stating that, while the Devil and the impious who have denied God will be tortured without remission, those who have trusted in Christ, even if they have sinned and fallen away, will eventually be saved. Much the same teaching appears in Ambrose, developed in greater detail." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

"Like Hilary and Ambrose, Ambrosiaster distinguishes three categories: the saints and the righteous, who will go directly to heaven at the time of the resurrection; the ungodly, apostates, infidels, and atheists, who will go directly into the fiery torments of Hell; and the ordinary Christians, who, though sinners, will first pay their debt and for a time be purified by fire but then go to Paradise because they had the faith.

Commenting on Paul, Ambrosiaster writes: 'He [Paul] said: 'yet so as by fire,' because this salvation exists not without pain; for he did not say, 'he shall be saved by fire,' but when he says, 'yet so as by fire,' he wants to show that this salvation is to come, but that he must suffer the pains of fire; so that, purged by fire, he may be saved and not, like the infidels [perfidi], tormented forever by eternal fire; if for a portion of his works he has some value, it is because he believed in Christ.'" (Jacques Le Goff, The Birth Of Purgatory [Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press, 1986], p. 61)

"we find Ambrosiaster teaching that, while the really wicked, 'will be tormented with everlasting punishment', the chastisement of Christian sinners will be of a temporary duration." (J.N.D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines [San Francisco, California: HarperCollins Publishers, 1978], p. 484)

--http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/10/eternal-security-before-reformation.html#comment-form_9103942980949071753

 

[newbirth]

. . . Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

There goes your ES....one can fall from Grace (lose salvation) because we are saved by grace....one can be severed from Christ...you posted it ....you don't even know what you believe ....God just gave you a chance to repent...even though you say he is not a chance giver...Bless his name forever.....

 

[newbirth]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

. . . Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

There goes your ES....one can fall from Grace (lose salvation) because we are saved by grace....one can be severed from Christ...you posted it ....you don't even know what you believe ....God just gave you a chance to repent...even though you say he is not a chance giver...Bless his name forever.....

 

[newbirth]

Re: Evidence of E S is Found in "Church Fathers"

What the so-called "Church Fathers" say on Eternal Security is an academic exercise; since it is God's Word, not religious tradition which proves truth. But after a little internet search & a look at my copy of Kelly's Early Christian Doctrines, I find that Augustine records that there were those who believed in eternal security and also that Jerome believed it & probably others, others besides the universalists like Origen. Basil records that most ordinary Christians believed in eternal security also, even if it involved a period of purgatory. (p. 483 of Kelly).

I give an internet quote:



--http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/10/eternal-security-before-reformation.html#comment-form_9103942980949071753

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 

[Atwood]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

There goes your ES....one can fall from Grace (lose salvation) because we are saved by grace....one can be severed from Christ...you posted it ....you don't even know what you believe ....God just gave you a chance to repent...even though you say he is not a chance giver...Bless his name forever.....

Passage says nothing about the persons having enjoyed the grace of God, but that they went away from it -- which is what you appear to have done if someone, sometime explained grace to you and instead you chose works.

Eternal security stands for eternity!

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Repent all ye who demote the Lord Jesus to chance-giver, disbelieving that He is the Savior who will save His people from their sins.

 

[Cassian]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

It really is outrageous to deny eternal security; in essence one is denying the content of salvation and the definition of Christ as Savior instead of "chance-giver."


"Nevertheless I am continually with thee:
Thou hast holden my right hand.
Thou wilt guide me with thy counsel,
And afterward receive me to glory.
Whom have I in heaven but thee?
And there is none upon earth that I desire besides thee.
My flesh and my heart faileth;
But God is the strength of my heart and my portion for ever.

I suppose it would be outrageous from your perspective. However, when one accepts Christ's Gospel as He gave it, rather than all the man made theories devised by men via sola scriptura, it would be outrageous that one would even contemplate such a view as OSAS. As the theory goes, it essentially denies the very Gospel itself, especially when all the other false concepts you have stated in this thread.

The essential thing is that you believe in an entirely different God, Christ, and the way of salvation than Christians have for 2000 years. It is wholly a paradigm that is the antithesis of the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Evidence of E S is Found in "Church Fathers"

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Narrow gate: The way of by grace through faith.

Broad gate: the way of pretended self-righteousness, the way of works to merit eternal life.

 

[Atwood]

Sola Scriptura or Sola Spoofula?

The Sola Spoofula is when someone just makes up stuff or spouts his denominational heresies without even trying to proof it from the Bible.

The Scripture what the Lord Jesus used for proof "It is written!" He decried religious tradition. Now the only source I know of, of the Word of God, is the Bible, that is a source readily available to men in general on earth. If you have some other document that you claim is God's word, bring it forth and prove it -- or stop going on about how awful it is "sola scriptura."

Since you have not yet memorized the whole scripture, nor even understood it all, what makes you think you need something else?

But if you think you have it, bring it forth & prove it.

The Word of God say,
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
I believe it.

If you have written off the Savior as a mere "chance-giver," repent.

 

[Atwood]

The Gospel as the Lord Gave It!

Here it is:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,
and you shall be saved.

Come unto Me all you who labor & are heavy-laden; . . . and I will give you rest.
"I AM the good shepherd." to His sheep He says:
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

He guarantees salvation to the believer: you shall be saved!

(It doesn't say, "You shall be given a chance at it.)

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Kerry]

To the believer not the believer that has become an unbeliever. Case in point is Ozzy Osborne.

 

[Atwood]

Who is the God I Believe in? YHWH the Savior (not mere "chance-giver&quot

The only God who is, is the one I believe in; that is, the God of the Bible, YHWH.
He is a Trinity: Father, Son, & Holy Spirit. He is eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient; sovereign and loving. The 2nd person of the Trinity added a human nature about 2000 years ago and become one person with two natures, God & Man.
He also is the Savior (not a mere chance-giver).

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[newbirth]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

Passage says nothing about the persons having enjoyed the grace of God, but that they went away from it -- which is what you appear to have done if someone, sometime explained grace to you and instead you chose works.

Eternal security stands for eternity!

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Repent all ye who demote the Lord Jesus to chance-giver, disbelieving that He is the Savior who will save His people from their sins.

Originally Posted by Atwood

. . . Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

who is talking about enjoyment twister? it says Ye are severed from Christ,

I can't see how someone can be severed if they were not a part of ...nor can one fall from somewhere he was not....
You have outdone yourself.... turn to God and reject the doctrine of man....

 

[Atwood]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

it says Ye are severed [wrong] from Christ,

I can't see how someone can be severed if they were not a part of ...nor can one fall from somewhere he was not....
.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. NKJV

katargeo:
kat(a) = thoroughly
a- =not
erg = work (e disappears added to a)
eo = verb ending

made thoroughly not working

BDAG:
1. to cause someth. to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste
of a tree κ. τὴν γῆν Lk 13:7


2. to cause someth. to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless fig. extension of 1
make ineffective, nullify
τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ God’s fidelity Ro 3:3.
ἐπαγγελίαν Gal 3:17; cp. Ro 4:14;
τὰ ὄντα κ. nullify the things that (actually) exist 1 Cor 1:28.
τὸν νόμον make the law invalid Eph 2:15; cp. Ro 3:31


3. to cause someth. to come to an end or to be no longer in existence, abolish, wipe out, set aside τὶ someth.
τὰ τοῦ νηπίου set aside childish ways 1 Cor 13:11.

Of God or Christ:
God will do away with both stomach and food 6:13;
bring to an end πᾶσαν ἀρχήν, ἐξουσίαν, δύναμιν 15:24.

τὸν ἄνομον 2 Th 2:8.

τὸν θάνατον break the power of death 2 Ti 1:10;
pass. 1 Cor 15:26
τὸν τὸ κράτος ἔχοντα τοῦ θανάτου destroy the one who has power over death Hb 2:14.

ἵνα καταργηθῇ τὸ σῶμα τ. ἁμαρτίας in order that the sinful body may be done away with Ro 6:6.

In 2 Cor 3:14 the subject may be ἡ παλαιὰ διαθήκη or, more probably (despite some grammatical considerations),
κάλυμμα; in the latter case the mng. is remove.
—Pass. cease, pass away προφητεία, γνῶσις [=prophecy, knowledge] 1 Cor 13:8.

τὸ ἐκ μέρους what is imperfect vs. 10.

ἄρα κατήργηται τὸ σκάνδαλον τοῦ σταυροῦ the cross has ceased to be an obstacle Gal 5:11.

καταργούμενος doomed to perish
of the ἄρχοντες τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου 1 Cor 2:6.

Of the radiance on Moses’ face 2 Cor 3:7.

Subst. τὸ καταργούμενον what is transitory vss. 11, 13.


4. to cause the release of someone from an obligation (one has nothing more to do with it),
be discharged, be released.

Severed is a misleading translation to the extent that katargeo does not refer to cutting something off, like a limb of a tree or an arm from a body.

The word does not imply that the one who would be justified by law used to be part of Christ & no longer is. But if you try to justified by the law (by obedience), then you cut yourself off / make yourself discharged from Christ's saving power. He is not your Savior then; you are your alleged savior.

NewB, it appears to me that you with your works salvation fit precisely into this verse. Am I wrong?

 

[Kerry]

In the Greek or Latin or Hebrew or Spanish or Swahili or Japanese or Chinese. It is faith in the work of the cross anything else is hell bound. No if's and 's or but's. and if a believer is deceived into his works, then he's hell bound.

 

[Cassian]

Re: Sola Scriptura or Sola Spoofula?

The Sola Spoofula is when someone just makes up stuff or spouts his denominational heresies without even trying to proof it from the Bible.

The Scripture what the Lord Jesus used for proof "It is written!" He decried religious tradition. Now the only source I know of, of the Word of God, is the Bible, that is a source readily available to men in general on earth. If you have some other document that you claim is God's word, bring it forth and prove it -- or stop going on about how awful it is "sola scriptura."

Since you have not yet memorized the whole scripture, nor even understood it all, what makes you think you need something else?

But if you think you have it, bring it forth & prove it.

The Word of God say,
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
I believe it.

If you have written off the Savior as a mere "chance-giver," repent.

False accusations, misunderstanding of scripture and strawmen seems to be your moto. When are you actually going to give evidence of "eternal security"? I cannot say you are making stuff up regarding it, since it has been around for 500 years already and for 500 years it has been known as a false teaching of scripture.

I know you just love your personal gospel, as do all the other sola scirpturist who have developed their own from a text known as the Bible, but the Bible's purpose was not for man to use it to develop sectarian philosophies from it.

It was meant to be a witness to the Truth, not be the Truth, or at worse man's idea of what it might mean, rather than what it has always meant.

 

[Cassian]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. NKJV

katargeo:
kat(a) = thoroughly
a- =not
erg = work (e disappears added to a)
eo = verb ending

made thoroughly not working

BDAG:
1. to cause someth. to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste
of a tree κ. τὴν γῆν Lk 13:7


2. to cause someth. to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless fig. extension of 1
make ineffective, nullify
τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ God’s fidelity Ro 3:3.
ἐπαγγελίαν Gal 3:17; cp. Ro 4:14;
τὰ ὄντα κ. nullify the things that (actually) exist 1 Cor 1:28.
τὸν νόμον make the law invalid Eph 2:15; cp. Ro 3:31


3. to cause someth. to come to an end or to be no longer in existence, abolish, wipe out, set aside τὶ someth.
τὰ τοῦ νηπίου set aside childish ways 1 Cor 13:11.

Of God or Christ:
God will do away with both stomach and food 6:13;
bring to an end πᾶσαν ἀρχήν, ἐξουσίαν, δύναμιν 15:24.

τὸν ἄνομον 2 Th 2:8.

τὸν θάνατον break the power of death 2 Ti 1:10;
pass. 1 Cor 15:26
τὸν τὸ κράτος ἔχοντα τοῦ θανάτου destroy the one who has power over death Hb 2:14.

ἵνα καταργηθῇ τὸ σῶμα τ. ἁμαρτίας in order that the sinful body may be done away with Ro 6:6.

In 2 Cor 3:14 the subject may be ἡ παλαιὰ διαθήκη or, more probably (despite some grammatical considerations),
κάλυμμα; in the latter case the mng. is remove.
—Pass. cease, pass away προφητεία, γνῶσις [=prophecy, knowledge] 1 Cor 13:8.

τὸ ἐκ μέρους what is imperfect vs. 10.

ἄρα κατήργηται τὸ σκάνδαλον τοῦ σταυροῦ the cross has ceased to be an obstacle Gal 5:11.

καταργούμενος doomed to perish
of the ἄρχοντες τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου 1 Cor 2:6.

Of the radiance on Moses’ face 2 Cor 3:7.

Subst. τὸ καταργούμενον what is transitory vss. 11, 13.


4. to cause the release of someone from an obligation (one has nothing more to do with it),
be discharged, be released.

Severed is a misleading translation to the extent that katargeo does not refer to cutting something off, like a limb of a tree or an arm from a body.

The word does not imply that the one who would be justified by law used to be part of Christ & no longer is. But if you try to justified by the law (by obedience), then you cut yourself off / make yourself discharged from Christ's saving power. He is not your Savior then; you are your alleged savior.

NewB, it appears to me that you with your works salvation fit precisely into this verse. Am I wrong?

It is actually humorous to see the twisting, the redefining of words, to make sure a false teaching stands. You have made the entire Bible nothing more than a mistranslation because it just does not align with your false notion of ES.

Then you end it with a strawman as well.

 

[Kerry]

Those that overcome, those that endure. What was Paul talking about when He said backslider. Are we picking and choosing what parst of the bible we believe and throw the rest away.

John say's that it is impossible for believers to sin. Then say's that if we sin He is just to forgive us.

Sin must be repented from sinner to Saint. Unrepentant sin can cause us to lose our salvation.

What John is talking about is that as long as you are in Christ you will not desire to sin. But if your faith is placed elsewhere then your desire for sin returns. Paul covers it in Romans 7.

 

[Kerry]

good night y'all

 

[mailmandan]

true so we can move to this point...
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Trees do not bear good fruit and are cast into the fire because they are bad trees.