It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

Atwood to Konroh:

Really Konroh, if you want to make an assertion, please quote your scripture & prove from it. And kindly don't put words in my mouth; backquote me. The rocky soil did not believe in the Lord Jesus, nor get saved. The passage says neither one. The person illustrated believed the word; it doesn't say he trusted the Savior. I already explained this one, but since apparently you didn't see it & you falsely accuse me of not explaining it, I will do so again, even though you don't quote the passage.

Luke 8:13

And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard,receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

There is nothing here about believing in the Lord Jesus. It is the word that is received and believed. There is no root; nothing about being saved. I do so wish persons would stop imagining things.

This reminds me of King Agrippa in Acts 26:

King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. And Agrippa said unto Paul, With but little persuasion thou wouldest fain make me a Christian.

So even if Agrippa believed the word, he never believed in the Lord Jesus as Savior. I cite this to demo how believing the word is not the same as trusting the Savior. The text says "these have no root." So why you would think they were saved is beyond me.

As a matter of fact, the parable of the soils says nothing about any Savior saving anyone. And that is typical of passages persons quote to try to oppose eternal security.

Konroh, would you mind doing your own work of hunting up scripture? If you want an explanation, please quote your own passage. I don't think there are any you will quote that I have not already explained in this very long thread. You may also want to check out the passage yourself with Greek dictionaries/lexicons and the like on crucial words before you post. Go to Biblehub and look at alternative translations first, why don't you? I am happy to help, but why not check things out yourself first a little?
Paul never said King Agrippa believed the word or Christ.. he said he believed the prophets.... two different things...

NewB (who does well to quote scripture a lot, as opposed to some others) commented on this:

newbirth said:

In the Parable of the 4 Soils, He was speaking about the prophetic Word of God, specifically the word about the Kingdom, not Himself as the Word (John 1:1):

Mat 13:
"Hear then ye the parable of the sower. When any one hears
the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side. And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that hears the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself"

"receives it": The pronoun is it, not him. The passages speaks of receiving an it, not a Him. This is not receiving the Lord Jesus and believing in Him as Savior; the topic is receiving a message.

I gave the example of King Agrippa who evidently believed the prophets, but did not believe in the Savior.

When will persons get the point? that some passages are about a loving Savior Who saves people; other passages are not on that topic. The Parable of the 4 Soils says nothing about any Savior, and never says "salvation."

Remember what salvation is all about:
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
He is the Savior, not a mere "chance-giver."

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

The Lord Has Wrath, and the Lord Causes Death

It has been seen how some go on saying things, presenting a theological theory, without even bothering to attempt proof from scripture. The idea of God having wrath has been dismissed, and even the theory exists that the Lord does not put persons to death.

But as a matter of fact the Lord does have wrath, and He does put sinners to death, even if satan (like human beings today who do lots of murder) also had the power to kill in OT times.

The fact that God has wrath and is angry with sinners indicates a problem for men. There is this thing called the Lake of Fire. But the Lord Jesus drank the cup of God's wrath on the cross for us; thus we may be spared if we trust Him as Savior (not "chance-giver").

" And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless."

"And while the flesh was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was kindled against the people, and the LORD smote the people with a very great plague."

"ye provoked the LORD to wrath."

[Our LORD is not apathetic; His emotional state of wrath can be provoked by men.]

There are many wrath of God passages in the Bible. Let's add some from the NT:

"But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 2And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life [not temporary!] : and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

"But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. "

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

The security of the believer:

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ"

The data on God's wrath is extensive.

But the Lord Jesus on the cross drank the cup of God's wrath for us. This is the ground of our eternal security:

"the cup which my Father has given me, shall I not drink it?"

ASV] Psa. 11:6 Upon the wicked he will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind shall be the portion of their cup.

[ASV] Psa. 75:8 For in the hand of Jehovah there is a cup, and the wine foameth; It is full of mixture, and he poureth out of the same: Surely the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall drain them, and drink them.

[ASV] Is. 51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, that hast drunk at the hand of Jehovah the cup of his wrath; thou hast drunken the bowl of the cup of staggering, and drained it.

[ASV] Is. 51:22 Thus saith thy Lord Jehovah, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thy hand the cup of staggering, even the bowl of the cup of my wrath; thou shalt no more drink it again:

[ASV] Jer. 25:15 ¶ For thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, unto me: Take this cup of the wine of wrath at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.

[ASV] Jer. 49:12 For thus saith Jehovah: Behold, they to whom it pertained not to drink of the cup shall assuredly drink; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink.

[ASV] Ezek. 23:31-33 Thou hast walked in the way of thy sister; therefore will I give her cup into thy hand. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Thou shalt drink of thy sister’s cup, which is deep and large; thou shalt be laughed to scorn and had in derision; it containeth much. Thou shalt be filled with drunkenness and sorrow, with the cup of astonishment and desolation, with the cup of thy sister Samaria.

[ASV] Rev. 14:10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

[ASV] Rev. 16:19 And the great city was divided into into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

[ASV] Rev. 18:6 Render unto her even as she rendered, and double unto her the double according to her works: in the cup which she mingled, mingle unto her double.18:6

Let's compare the Dead Sea Scrolls:

1QpHab 11:10-15 the cup of the LORD’s right hand will come around for you, and then shame will cover your honor” (Habakkuk 2:16). This refers to the priest whose disgrace became greater than his honor, because he had not circumcised his heart’s foreskin, and he walked in the ways of drunkenness in order to put an end to thirst. But the cup of God’s wrath will destroy him, increas[ing only his dis]honor and pain […]

The Lord Jesus drank the cup of God's wrath on the cross, and He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me."
There is therefore no need to suffer the wrath of God nor separation from Him. The cup has been drunk for you. All you must now do is trust Him as Savior, not untrust Him as "chance-giver

'

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

Why Argue When Scripture is Crystal Clear?

End of Rom 8:

And we know that to them that love God
all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. - 1 Pet 1

Could this "begat us" have something to do with the believer's eternal security? Could it be that the re-created child of God has a new nature which cannot sin and which is eternal (even if his Old Man hangs around? -- no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells in my flesh - Rom 7)

2 Tim 1:8-9

… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

Cassian · Jul 8, 2014

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Atwood said:

Such a limited understanding. Heb 2:14-17 is the explanation of why Christ needed to become Incarnate. To defeat death, the power of Satan. Satan ruled this world through the power of death. It is he that took Adam captive and it was Christ that defeated Satan and death, and took captive those that Satan had ensnared. Christ bound Satan defeated death and gave life to the world, not just mankind.

The ONLY reason that God sent Adam and Eve out of the Garden so that they could not eat of the Tree of life was to prevent sin from becoming eternal. Christ would later become that same Tree and give life back to mankind. It is why we can even speak of a relationship with Christ because it is Christ, the Second Adam that reversed the fall, death to the world.

We will die once, the consequence of the condemnation of death to Adam/mankind so that we an rid our bodies of sin. Our bodies will be raised immortal and incorruptible, I Cor 15:53 because Christ, Incarnated with our human nature, raised our mortal natures to life. That is what Rom 5:18 says, I Cor 15:12-22, John 6:39, Rev 20:13.

It would be absolutely absurd that Christ would have died to defeat death, if God, Himself was the cause of death. so much for your theology, which by the way is part of Anselm's theory as well.

But I will wager that you will deny the work of Christ, the Incarnation, the salvation of mankind from death and sin, the great gift of love, mercy and grace given to the world. John 4:42. It does not align with your personal interpretation as most of scripture does not. It is why all you have is OSAS to cling to which per scripture is not only false, but it makes al the rest of scripture false as well.
You need to study Biblical theology and not the theories of man which you seem to cling to.

Cassian · Jul 8, 2014

Re: Atonement

Atwood said:

First, you have not even begun to establish ES from scripture. All you have established is that you hold to the man made theory of predestination which has as one of its tenets OSAS or ES.

Also, Christ does have an element of substitution in his death but not the way Protestants understand it which is based again on two theories. Anselm's satisfaction which also incorporates the theory of Original Sin. You use the word "penal" which is the additive that Calvin added to Anselm's concept of the Atonement. Only Calvinism has penal as part of their theology.

What stroke do we deserve? That question comes directly out of the theory of Original Sin. You constant quoting of Jesus saved us from our sins, is but one part of his work. It was not even the primary work. There are many Protestants who have the understanding that one, a believer is being saved from hell. Which may be your view with this constant repeat of being saved from our sins.

What you fail to understand is that man was already condemned. Sin is inconsequencial to a human being that will only live a biological existence then die and cease ever to live. Our condemnation was dust to dust, Gen 3:19, that death from Satan that you consistantly deny. Man became mortal. Without Christ man has no existence. There is no eternity, there is no heaven or hell.
Christ needed to give life back to the world before He could have a relationship with man that would have an eternal existence. By virture of Christ's redemptive work both heaven and hell become a reality. Rather than have Satan destroy man, God is going to give man, every man the same choice as Adam had regarding a relationship with Him. Those that reject Him, or leave the fold, will be assigned to hell because that was that person's desire and decision, not Gods' Heaven would be given to those who desired to be united with Him, willing to love all, be obedient to His commands, and be made into the Likeness of God.

OSAS is antithical to scripture, to the purpose of why God created man and why Christ saved man from death and sin so that God could have a working, personal relationship with a human being who He created in His Image.

Your theology as you have explained it by dismisal, redefinition of scripture, is nothing more than making man a good moral character and live a life of ease where sin is not a factor.

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Cassian said:

Cassian, since you don't quote scripture, your arguments are not established. Quote your verses if you want to prove something. I need to study Biblical Theology? Now if I recite to you my studies, I expect then the usual disregard of it or criticism for bragging. Or after you have told me I need to study, if I tell you how I have studied, I expect something like "I don't care about your studies."

One year in the course of reading through the entire Bible, I marked all the passages on salvation. I have similarly marked many other subjects in Bibles in my yearly Bible reading. Have you done anything like that?

Capitalizing words proves nothing. Try quoting and demonstrating from the text if you wish to be believed. Your recitations of theory accomplishes nothing in the way of proof.

If you have a text that proves the unsaved sinners are raised incorruptible, post it. Scripture tells us that the damned are raised, judged at the Great White Throne & cast into the Lake of Fire.

I don't know of any scripture that teaches that the incarnation (as opposed to the cross) accomplishes salvation. I bet you can't quote one either.

What is absurd is your droning on pontification without Bible proof.
The entrance of God's Word brings light. I have posted plenty of verses that have God putting people to death. To deny that is to be either Biblically illiterate or an agent of evil spreading falsehood.

You seem full of human theories Cassian, as evidenced by your recitations without Biblical quote.

For the audience:
The proposition is that Once saved, you are saved (eternal security).
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

This is to believed on the basis of the direct teaching of God's word, not human pontifications.

Some sample verses:

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which He has committed unto me against that day.”

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Cassian · Jul 8, 2014

Re: E S is God Justifying Sinners

Atwood said:

YOur theology is very limited here as well. Not very scriptural.

God justified the world with His Blood, Col 1:20. He reconciled sinners to God, Rom 5:6-10 that is every single human being, unless you can list many who were not sinners. Christ redeemed, reconciled the world back to God, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25. This has NOTHING TO DO WITH OSAS OR ES

Christ atoned from the sin of the world, not just believers. He propitiated the sin of the world, I John 2:2.

A person is justified to God by faith. Thus when one loses faith he is no longer justified, thus obviously cannot inherit eternal life.

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

Re: Atonement

Originally Posted by Atwood

Having established beyond a shadow of a doubt the truth of eternal security from so many scriptures, like Rom 8 & John 10 (I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish),
let us digress a bit on atonement, that is, what Christ did on the cross. Those who want to make the incarnation itself the atonement, have not posted a shred of evidence -- so we can set that on aside. We can also set aside Anselm; I may have read him some years ago when doing research on "flesh," when I checked the "Church fathers" on that topic. But it is the Word of God that counts, not tradition. Isaiah 52-53 has a key passage.

Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand.

Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed? For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

[On the cross, his visage was marred, so on the cross He had no beauty.]

He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not.

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows
[On the cross he bore our sin -- He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Our griefs & sorrows come from our sin & our estrangement from God.]

yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[He was punished by the Father for our sins. The punishment for sin is separation from God. He is holy & cannot have fellowship with sinners. On the cross He cried out, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me.]

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his bruising we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[This torment was from God the Father. He chastised or punished His Son when the Son bore our sins. The Lord Himself laid on Him our iniquity & chastised Him for it. "Stripes" is a mistranslation for a word that is singular in Hebrew; this does not refer to Pilate's whipping. Those nails into His body were to pay for our sins. And His suffering brings us spiritual healing --also physical healing eventually, complete health.]

He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?
[His death was substitutionary. We deserved the stroke, but He took it for us.]

And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
[It was YHWH who put Him to grief. YHWH made an offering out of Him, not Molech.]

he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
[There it is, satisfaction. God had been affronted by our sins. He drank the cup of the wrath of God for us. Another way of saying it would be that Christ made propitiation for our sins.]

by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities.
[There it is, more indication of substitution. It was our sins that He bore. He justifies those who believe in Him. We don't justify ourselves by our works.]

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many,
[substitutionary sacrifice]

and made intercession for the transgressors.

All this supports eternal security. It is Christ Who died for us & for our sins. We have no sin-debt to pay now. Jesus paid it all; all to Him I owe. Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God who declares righteous; who is he who condemns?

He is truly our Savior if we trust Him.
He is not a mere chance-giver.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Cassian said:

Well Cassian, anyone who cares can consider the scripture I have posted. But your continuing to pontificate without quoting & proving from Scripture is impotent & nothing like our Lord Himself when he quoted & said, "It is written."

The proof for eternal security has been quoted from the Bible & proven beyond a shadow of a doubt:

"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.

Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

How to Waste Time With Futile Pontifications

If you want to waste time, instead of bring conviction of the truth, just spout off with your claims, party-lines, denominational dogmas, and theories. This goes no where as to proof.

Little better is to do the same thing & interject scripture ref numbers, like Hezekiah 9:6. Make a long rant interspersing Bible ref numbers, never quoting a thing. This also goes nowhere.

If you wish to have a chance of establishing some doctrine, quote the Bible and demonstrate how your quotations prove it; or just make your claim & list your proof texts, quoting them. Is it my imagination, or is it not a common practice of one particular denomination here to post by pontification?

Here are examples of how to do prove doctrine:

1) "But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not;
Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not:
For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband."

2) "as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance: but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living; because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy"

3) " And the devil said unto him, If thou art the Son of God, command this stone that it become bread. And Jesus answered unto him, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone."

This style of argument makes it is possible to have a meaningful dialogue.

Someone may feel more comfortable, just up and holding forth because then there is no immediate check of the claim. But actually just mouthing-off proves nothing.

Now with regard to eternal security, I have flooded the forum with proof texts. The reader is urged to read them and make up his own mind. What is there to argue about? You read the proof-texts and then you agree or disagree.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

Cassian · Jul 8, 2014

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Atwood said:

Cassian, since you don't quote scripture, your arguments are not established. Quote your verses if you want to prove something. I need to study Biblical Theology? Now if I recite to you my studies, I expect then the usual disregard of it or criticism for bragging. Or after you have told me I need to study, if I tell you how I have studied, I expect something like "I don't care about your studies."

One year in the course of reading through the entire Bible, I marked all the passages on salvation. I have similarly marked many other subjects in Bibles in my yearly Bible reading. Have you done anything like that?

Capitalizing words proves nothing. Try quoting and demonstrating from the text if you wish to be believed. Your recitations of theory accomplishes nothing in the way of proof.

If you have a text that proves the unsaved sinners are raised incorruptible, post it. Scripture tells us that the damned are raised, judged at the Great White Throne & cast into the Lake of Fire.

I don't know of any scripture that teaches that the incarnation (as opposed to the cross) accomplishes salvation. I bet you can't quote one either.

What is absurd is your droning on pontification without Bible proof.
The entrance of God's Word brings light. I have posted plenty of verses that have God putting people to death. To deny that is to be either Biblically illiterate or an agent of evil spreading falsehood.

You seem full of human theories Cassian, as evidenced by your recitations without Biblical quote.

For the audience:
The proposition is that Once saved, you are saved (eternal security).
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

This is to believed on the basis of the direct teaching of God's word, not human pontifications.

Some sample verses:

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which He has committed unto me against that day.”

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I had an premonition that you would discard everything stated because either you don't want to understand, or you cannot understand, or won't because it destroys your whole belief system.
As to quoting scripture, I have done so repeatedly supporting what I state. You need to dismiss it because you don't agree with it. Even here I cited the scripture and you dismissed it without even addressing it. The other you denied what it states, because you need to deny it because it contradicts your personal interpretation.

Then you do the most bizarre thing, you apparently use the web search in scripture for all the texts that use the word, wrath, or death and think you are actually contribuing something meaningful to the discussion. Citing scripture is quite meaningless given the practices of sola scripturists.
Even your citing all the promises of God and then pontificating that it means OSAS when in fact, scripturally it does not. It does support predestination where God is the ONLY active agent in this world, and that man is inert and passive.

I also do not need someone to quote scripture to prove a point. Scripture has a cohesiveness throughout, as long as it is not imposed by man made theories, that one can easily understand it, if they were actually taught correctly.

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

Re: Why Do These Guys Just Go On Dogmatizing w/ No Bible Proof?

Posted by Atwood:

Some sample verses:

Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.

In II Thess. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”

In II Tim. 1:12 “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which He has committed unto me against that day.”

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.

Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Cassian said:

Yeah, I had a premonition that you would keep on pontificating, not proving a thing from Bible.

You don't need to quote scripture if you want to have your comments ignored & disbelieved.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

"Lose" and "Faith" Never Occur together in the Bible

There is not even one verse that has both the words lose & faith in the same verse. Faith & Fail do occur together in one verse, but as a negation, where the Lord prayed for Peter that his fail would not fail.

There is no instance in the Bible of someone believing in the Lord Jesus as his Savior and then stopping that belief.

To understand what salvation is all about, you need to have verses where there is a Savior and poor wretched sinners saved by Him. That is what it is all about. Never is anyone unsaved once saved. And that would not be salvation at all.

He is not a chance-giver, but the Savior.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

The scripture is enormous supporting eternal security. Passages which speak of apostasy must be understood in that light. 1 John 2 explains that apostates were never part of the Body of Christ anyway.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us"

This is a great verse for eternal security. Those who are "of us" (that is in the Body of Christ, God's born again children), continue with us. That is eternal security. Once you are in the Body of Christ you continue in the Body of Christ. Those who leave the local church fellowship show that they were not of us (not really saved).

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent; No Such Thing as Unjustification

Someone invents unjustification, a non-Bible concept; there is no such thing as "no longer justified" with regard to God having declared the sinner righteous by faith.

But here is the claim:

To start with, in the Bible there is never "lose faith" speaking of trusting Christ as Savior, then stopping such trust. Lose & faith never even both occur in one verse.

And there is no "unjustification" in the Bible. When God declares righteous, who can condemn? There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8).

The quote commits the formal fallacy called "denying the antecedent." The error is of this type:

If faith, then justification;
therefore
If no faith, no justification.
That would be saying,
If eggs, then one has food;
therefore,
if one has no eggs, one has no food.

On this fallacy the WickedPedia says:

If a man is declared righteous by God for trusting the Lord Jesus,
that would not imply that if the man stopped trusting, that man would not be declared righteous.

Nevertheless, there is no such thing in the Bible as "stopping trusting the Lord Jesus as Savior."

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ [now],
and you shall be [future] saved.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

royalscot · Jul 8, 2014

RickyZ said:

if the truth sets you free, and god said, he will see to your needs. (believers)
strange thing, that some times go s with pray, is counselling , this open the door, to a lot of unanswered prayer.

example, jesus in his home town , could not do many signs and wonder (healings) because of there unbelief, saying to each other is he not carpenters son. ie do both parts need to believe (the person praying , and the person being prayed for)
for prayer to be answered, even praying for your self or others needs some sort of faith that the prayer will be answered.
if they are blocked in worry, hate, slander, unforgiveness. or unbelief (jesus s home town). is a very important lesson on prayer, and healings. (food for thought)

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

General Answer to Caldwell's Canards

Post 3375 for future reference.

I am seeing what looks like possibly a paste. But I am responding in blue with some red to the supposed proof texts of how you lose your salvation, though Savior and Salvation hardly occur at all in these canards; salvation occurs only as physical salvation during the Tribulation. So there passages not having Savior or Salvation are not really on topic. Lose & salvation, like Lose & Faith, never occur both in one verse.

So here are Kenneth Caldwell's canards with answers:

kennethcadwell said:

Yes it does. And I have quoted it to you already. 1 John says that believers should know that they have eternal life.

The topic is supposed to be about Savior & Salvation; note that Kenneth's verses are off topic -- no Savior & no salvation in them:

[James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

crowns are rewards, not salvation

----------------------
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 24 & 10 are about making it to the end of the Tribulation, not spiritual salvation. But according the eternal security,
the saved do all endure to the end.
--------------------

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

I highlighted the verse with red font.
Amen. Since our salvation is guaranteed, let us run the race for rewards.
----------------------------------------

Hebrews 10:36
Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised [that is the reward, which is not salvation] don't stop there, go through 10:39

And we can be confident if we have trusted the Lord Jesus as Savior that we shall endure.
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
---------------------
Kenneth stops at vs 6; he should know to go thru vs 9:

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. [keep going:]For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
Again you didn't go through 6:9, which begins with red above.

-------------------------------

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

And we do hold our confidence firm to the end, which proves our share in Christ!
---------------------------------

2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

Nothing here about salvation.
------------------------------------

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

The message is part of the salvation process. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
---------------------------

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Another passage on rewards, not salvation
----------------------------

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Passage is on age mass movements of Jews & Gentiles, not individual salvation. Gentiles as a whole are called thou. Rom 11 begins & ends with election, and near the end: "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
--------------------------------

Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Passage about making it to the end of the Tribulation, not spiritual salvation.
However, by eternal security all the saved do endure to the end.
------------------------------------

None of your passages speak about salvation, except Mark 13, which is not about spiritual salvation but making it through the Tribulation. Also, none of your passages speak about the Savior. So they are irrelevant. I added Heb 6:9 which does speak of salvation & how the preceding is not that. And these passages do not contradict the fact of eternal security.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Atwood · Jul 8, 2014

Re: General Answer to Caldwell's Canards

I said re Caldwell's canards:

"None of your passages speak about salvation, except Mark 13, which is not about spiritual salvation but making it through the Tribulation."

I should have said,
"None of your passages use the word salvation, except Mark 13, which is not about spiritual salvation but making it through the Tribulation. The passages are not about salvation, except that the one about Jesus being the author & perfecter of our faith does touch on salvation and is a great eternal security verse.

kennethcadwell · Jul 8, 2014

Re: General Answer to Caldwell's Canards

Which I would say sorry that you have not seen the meaning towards salvation in those scripture.

May God bless you and open your eyes, for if you believe you will never lose your salvation then good for you.

It is the part of teaching others that bothers me, because in order to teach others you must like I told EG teach the warnings as well so that the ones who are becoming new believers will not be lead astray to false doctrines.

You believe you are always saved because you are fully convinced in your heart that you will not lose salvation. I am truly convinced in my heart that I will be saved along side with you, and will see you in heaven. I however will not tell new believers only part of the word of God, but the whole word including the warnings.

May God bless all of us on this site, and to keep those who want to condemn others to stop. Condemning is not out of Love.

If you truly love some one you would teach things for them to watch out for as well. Leaving them to fend for themselves is not love.

Atwood said:

Cassian · Jul 8, 2014

Re: Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent; No Such Thing as Unjustification

Atwood said:

Anselmianism is alive and doing well for so many here. The ONLY theory that has the Latin meaning of justification, the legal framework of being declared 'not guilty" is the Satisfaction theory of atonement. There is no such thing in scripture.
To be justified means to be made acceptable, to be put into a correct relationship or alignment. It has the Hebrew and Greed meaning, not the Latin, legal meaning. Actually, Anselm should not be faulted here either. That was left to Jerome when he translated the Greek Bible into Latin and there is no word for word, for righteous in the Latin, so you used "justify" or "justified" based on the Roman legal system, not scripture. Anselm imports that same meaning into his theory.

There are many ways man makes himself unacceptable to God thus not justified. Since faith is how one is justified before God, made acceptable it is the first step towards our attaining eternal life. Without baptism, justification becomes null and void. If a believer loses faith, they are also unjustified since we are justified by faith. These are scriptural terms that have always been held from the beginning.
Man, both in the RCC after then split from the Church, and all Protestants have imposed so man theories upon scirpoture that they have become innumberable.
But I do understand how you have created your theology whereby OSAS works, ES works, because you hold to the predestination theory, Original Sin theory and Satisfaction theory. You also hold to faith only which is really just an offshoot of these others.

YOu keep posting texts that so not support your theory. Here is one of them...
"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8).[/quote] Of course there is NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE IN CHRIST. But when one is no longer in Christ, they fall under condemnation. This is why your OSAS is false, and the way you explain ES is also false. If you left the promise as is, without your erroneous pontification that one cannot fall, or one cannot lose faith, you actually would be correct.
But, alas, you need to add your good ole' men theories and make it a sectarian faith system which does not align with scripture.

You can continue to use these theories, but you will be stumbling all over yourself in tryiing to understand scripture which is quite clear already.

Kerry · Jul 8, 2014

Re: E S is God Justifying Sinners

Cassian said:

WE must have faith in the cross. It is the only way and the cross by no means justifies sin. ES or OSAS justifies sin. It declares that no matter what I do, rob banks, cheat on my wife, go to the strip club, drink till I vomit. It's okay, because I accepted Christ when I was 12 and got baptized at 14 so whatever I do it's okay. Jesus by grace forgave me of the sins that I commit from that time till eternity. LIE, LIE, LIE. The wages of sin is death the only way to be free from sin is by faith in the cross. These baptist have deterred your faith into what you have done and not what Christ has done. The have taught that baptisn=m is the way a work that you do. They have taught you to attend church another work that you do. They have told that drinking is okay, smoking is okay just rely on grace. That my friend is a lie.

It is the reason why America is the mess it is in. The church has accepted the world and rejected the cross. Saying well I went church and did the church thing so I'm okay. Bull excrement !!!!. When I read this thread I want to put my high boots on. They have no faith and are flesh minded. Having the form of godliness but denying the power thereof.

The just shall live by faith. faith in what, the cross

The cross set us free from the power of sin and is not a license to sin as OSAS say's or ES say's. It is a lie and Satan enjoy's it.

Cassian · Jul 8, 2014

Re: General Answer to Caldwell's Canards

Atwood said:

Post 3375 for future reference.

I am seeing what looks like possibly a paste. But I am responding in blue with some red to the supposed proof texts of how you lose your salvation, though Savior and Salvation hardly occur at all in these canards; salvation occurs only as physical salvation during the Tribulation. So there passages not having Savior or Salvation are not really on topic. Lose & salvation, like Lose & Faith, never occur both in one verse.

So here are Kenneth Caldwell's canards with answers:

Yes it does. And I have quoted it to you already. 1 John says that believers should know that they have eternal life.

The topic is supposed to be about Savior & Salvation; note that Kenneth's verses are off topic -- no Savior & no salvation in them:

[James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

crowns are rewards, not salvation

----------------------
Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mat 24 & 10 are about making it to the end of the Tribulation, not spiritual salvation. But according the eternal security,
the saved do all endure to the end.
--------------------

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

I highlighted the verse with red font.
Amen. Since our salvation is guaranteed, let us run the race for rewards.
----------------------------------------

Hebrews 10:36
Cast not away therefore your boldness, which hath great recompense of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, having done the will of God, ye may receive the promise.
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised [that is the reward, which is not salvation] don't stop there, go through 10:39

And we can be confident if we have trusted the Lord Jesus as Savior that we shall endure.
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
---------------------
Kenneth stops at vs 6; he should know to go thru vs 9:

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. [keep going:]For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
Again you didn't go through 6:9, which begins with red above.

-------------------------------

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

And we do hold our confidence firm to the end, which proves our share in Christ!
---------------------------------

2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

Nothing here about salvation.
------------------------------------

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

The message is part of the salvation process. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
---------------------------

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Another passage on rewards, not salvation
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Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Passage is on age mass movements of Jews & Gentiles, not individual salvation. Gentiles as a whole are called thou. Rom 11 begins & ends with election, and near the end: "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
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Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Passage about making it to the end of the Tribulation, not spiritual salvation.
However, by eternal security all the saved do endure to the end.
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None of your passages speak about salvation, except Mark 13, which is not about spiritual salvation but making it through the Tribulation. Also, none of your passages speak about the Savior. So they are irrelevant. I added Heb 6:9 which does speak of salvation & how the preceding is not that. And these passages do not contradict the fact of eternal security.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Another masterful rendition of biblical reconstruction. I have to admit I have no idea of what you actually believe regarding scripture since you either deny it, or change it. All to support a theory you have yet to establish. YOu should actually write your own bible so that we can read it, and get a much better idea of what you consider scriptural and meaningful for your particular theories and interpretaion. Since you disclaim Calvin you should write your own Institutes of Atwood. For your posts I find very little that pertains to scripture and what it has always meant.

I think kennithcaldwell has the right idea. You have not made your point, and what points you make are unscriptural. That you hold to them is your choice, but they should not be taught as Gospel when they cannot be shown to be the Gospel as Christ gave to us. I will leave you to pontificate your false views and hope that many are not led astray.

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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