It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[konroh]

Atwood, you make a good case. Many Christians don't understand the word "soterizo" in Greek, salvation. It's root meaning is deliverance, it is actually used of being delivered from death in many passages of the Bible, of sickness in James 5, of uselessness in 2 Tim. 2:13. It does not refer to deliverance from spiritual death, spiritual salvation, every time it is used. You do a good job of pointing that out in the above quoted passages.

I would however disagree that there aren't Scriptures that support that one can lose faith, and yet still be saved. These Scriptures don't refer to just apostates, as in 1 John 2. Luke 8:13 says that "they receive the word, they believe for a while." Your contention is that they believe, but are not saved, but this is in direct contradiction to the soil by the road that does not receive the word and "believe and be saved." v. 12

I agree that the "word," the seed, is not just limited to initial salvation, the passage makes the broader point that any time the word is given it has the possibility of falling on 4 differing soils, and having differing results. But while this is not limited to initial salvation, it does include it, such that the rocky soil believes and is saved, but does not have firm root and produce enduring fruit. This means that the faith can dissipate, and yet salvation still exists because it is based on the promise of God.

Please interact with these verses only, and don't bring in other Scriptures to prove your point, since you would be disproving your point if you can't understand these verses.

And please recognize that I love the Word, the text, I've been reading the Greek New Testament for 21 years.

 

[konroh]

Re: Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent; No Such Thing as Unjustification

Cassian, Atwood has made the strong case for ES, but you seem to believe in a universalistic application of the death of Christ, and salvation based on works. You deny propitiation, the satisfaction of God's wrath in the death of Christ, and I frankly don't understand why.

 

[Kerry]

why did Paul mention backsliders? explain.

 

[Atwood]

why did Paul mention backsliders? explain.

Look up the verse, examine it carefully, consider different translations. INterpret it in the context of what is said directly about the Savior, salvation, & eternal life. quote it.

Rest in the statement on subject of SAvior & salvation. Salvation is about a loving Savior & His promises to the believer. Apostates are explained in 1 John 2.

I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Can you rest in it, nest in it, fully be blessed in it?

 

[Atwood]

Re: Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent; No Such Thing as Unjustification

Cassian, Atwood has made the strong case for ES, but you seem to believe in a universalistic application of the death of Christ, and salvation based on works. You deny propitiation, the satisfaction of God's wrath in the death of Christ, and I frankly don't understand why.

It is clear, I think, why Cassian has his beliefs and stubbornly clings to them. Cassian thinks that his denomination is the Church, and that what it says is the ultimate authority as embodied in tradition. His denomination denies eternal security and apparently has what is to me a strange interpretation of salvation in common grace. And no matter what verse we quote to him, he will not depart from his denomination, for he thinks no one has the right to interpret the Bible except his denomination. In fact, from what I have read of his denomination, they even deny doctrinal development; the idea that new illumination may be had from the scripture, not which contradicts old truths, but is merely new understanding that adds to the old. I think they believe that all doctrine was long ago ossified. And regardless of what the Bible says & regardless of some "church fathers" having espoused eternal security, his denomination has said no long ago; and it cannot then be changed.

I think that is why Cassian is bold to just say things without any scripture, since he is convinced that his denominational line is infallible and must guide any interpretation of the Bible.

The only problem for him is that God's Word is like a hammer that breaks the rocks and like a sword. By him exposing himself to God's word it is possible that he will be convicted of the truth and escape the bondage of his denomination.

 

[Kerry]

Look up the verse, examine it carefully, consider different translations. INterpret it in the context of what is said directly about the Savior, salvation, & eternal life. quote it.

Rest in the statement on subject of SAvior & salvation. Salvation is about a loving Savior & His promises to the believer. Apostates are explained in 1 John 2.

I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Can you rest in it, nest in it, fully be blessed in it?

How can I when I was a backslider. Saved by faith and gave up and like a dog returned to my own vomit. Addicted to alcohol for over twenty years. Before, I was teaching the adult Sunday School class and preaching 2 Sunday nights a week.

My faith moved from the work of the cross to what I was doing. The Holy Spirit drew away, because He could not honor my works. Then I got my ducks in a row by the power of The Holy Spirit, through my wife praying and interceding for me and I went back down to the altar and placed that pint on the altar and reached up and took it back. Then I felt hands on me and people praying in other tongues. I put that pint back on the altar and cried Jesus save me.

I was set free. Just like before, the second time. I am a living witness that OSAS and ES is a lie.

 

[konroh]

KERRY, did you really believe the first time? Didn't you think you were saved?

I'd say you're living proof that OSAS is the truth.

Sorry to contradict your personal experience but I don't think I am, I think I'm acknowledging it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Even when you give a testimony like you just did. People chose to still not believe, even though you know where your heart is and they don't so they make judgment calls that either you were saved or you were not truly saved.

But in my walk, I have come across some just like you. Some that were even more devoted then a lot of preachers I know now days, but then they turned away for some reason in their lives. Some came back to our Lord, and others I know still to this day deny Jesus as Lord, and they deny the fact He even existed.

How can I when I was a backslider. Saved by faith and gave up and like a dog returned to my own vomit. Addicted to alcohol for over twenty years. Before, I was teaching the adult Sunday School class and preaching 2 Sunday nights a week.

My faith moved from the work of the cross to what I was doing. The Holy Spirit drew away, because He could not honor my works. Then I got my ducks in a row by the power of The Holy Spirit, through my wife praying and interceding for me and I went back down to the altar and placed that pint on the altar and reached up and took it back. Then I felt hands on me and people praying in other tongues. I put that pint back on the altar and cried Jesus save me.

I was set free. Just like before, the second time. I am a living witness that OSAS and ES is a lie.

 

[Atwood]

I would however disagree that there aren't Scriptures that support that one can lose faith, and yet still be saved.

There are no verses which say that a man can lose his trust in the Lord Jesus as Savior. Lose & faith never even occur both in one verse.

Luke 8:13 says that "they receive the word, they believe for a while." Your contention is that they believe, but are not saved, but this is in direct contradiction to the soil by the road that does not receive the word and "believe and be saved." v. 12

Konroh, did you not see my response on the same question below? Receiving the word is not receiving Christ. Believing the Word is not Believing in Christ as Savior. It they had believed in Christ as SAvior, they would have had root, but they had no root.

Here is largely a repeat of my post, I think it was 3364

Atwood to Konroh:

The rocky soil did not believe in the Lord Jesus, nor get saved. The passage says neither one. The person illustrated believed the word; it doesn't say he trusted the Savior.

Luke 8:13

And those on the rock are they who, when they have heard , receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who for a while believe [the word], and in time of temptation fall away.

There is nothing here about believing in the Lord Jesus as Savior. It is the word that is received and believed. There is no root; nothing about the rocky soil being saved.
This reminds me of King Agrippa in Acts 26:

King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
And Agrippa said unto Paul, With but little persuasion thou wouldest fain make me a Christian.

So even if Agrippa believed the word, he never believed in the Lord Jesus as Savior. I cite this to demo how believing the word is not the same as trusting the Savior. The text says "these have no root." So there is really no reason to suppose the rocky soils is a saved person.
In the Parable of the 4 Soils, He was speaking about the prophetic Word of God, specifically the word about the Kingdom, not Himself as the Word (John 1:1):

Mat 13:
"Hear then ye the parable of the sower. When any one hears
the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side. And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that hears the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself"

"receives it": The pronoun is it, not him. The passages speaks of receiving an it, not a Him. This is not receiving the Lord Jesus and believing in Him as Savior; the topic is receiving a message.

I gave the example of King Agrippa who evidently believed the prophets, but did not believe in the Savior.

Please interact with these verses only, and don't bring in other Scriptures to prove your point, since you would be disproving your point if you can't understand these verses.

I never will obey a rule like that. No scripture is of private interpretation, it must be interpreted in the light of the whole. The parable of the 4 soils must agree with "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Congrats on reading your Greek NT. More power to you on that one.

 

[kennethcadwell]

In the bible the context of the Word is speaking of Jesus Christ.

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


[SUP][/SUP]

 

[Atwood]

and others I know still to this day deny Jesus as Lord, and they deny the fact He even existed.

When will you confess that the Lord Jesus is the Savior instead of the mere chance-giver? Are you so focused on the Lord's function as judge that you cannot understand how He is a loving Savior Who paid for our sins, took our Old Man to the cross with Him, gives us a new nature and eternal life, merely for trusting Him as SAvior? He guarantees our salvation. Can you not grasp that He is the Savior of the sinner, the one who does not call the righteous, but sinners.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

He gives instant salvation when one trusts Him as Savior; it does not wait to be an award after judgment.

Instant Salvation in Past Tense

“Your faith has saved you; go in peace.” (Luke 7:50)

Zacchaeus.
Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” (Luke 19:9)

Evidence of Zacc's instant salvation is found in his instant statement:

But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” (Luke 19:8)

Cornelius was instantly saved when he trusted the Lord Jesus, and no water baptism was needed nor joining any Eastern or Western organization. (see Acts 10:43-48). Compare this to what Peter said in Acts 15:11: We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. (Acts 15:11)

Consider Eph 2:5 [God] made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Is there any hint of an extended process between dead & alive? Salvation is a change from death to life, with no intermediate zombie state. 2 Cor 5: Old things are passed away, behold all has become new. It is all or nothing here.

In addressing Tim on common salvation, prophet Paul remarks to Tim how the Christian's salvation is past. There is no future to transpire before Paul and Tim should call themselves saved.

[the Lord God] who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, - 2 Tim 1:9

Again, prophet Paul wrote in Titus the truth that we presently regard ourselves as saved in the past.

he [God] saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, (Titus 3:5)


The future continued salvation state after belief is guaranteed by the past justification by the blood of the Lord Jesus.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! (Rom 5:9) Now how is anyone going to be half-way justified? You either are or you are not. The transition must be instante.

Instant Salvation Is Realized in Present Time

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes [present tense] him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:12,13)

There is a clear dichotomy: You either have or have not the Son of God with eternal life. The change must be instantaneous. Eternal life is a present possession for the believer, not just a future reward.

Salvation is clearly presented as a present reality:
Men are divided clearly into two groups, believers and non-believers, the saved & the perishing.

he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor 1:18)

For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. (2 Cor 2:15)

It is clear the whosoever believes in Him has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. This salvation must be instantaneous in that it is a new birth, a recreation and only depends upon trusting the SAvior (not the chance-giver). One either is a saint or an ain't. The moment a non-believer becomes a believer, he must be saved, for scripture guarantees salvation to the believer. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. It is clear that the Philippian jailer was at once saved, for he believed.
------------------

Can you bring yourself around to this attitude attributed to Anselm?

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee: in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust; to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee, say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner, say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation, say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee, say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me. ‘And when thou hast completed this,

say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

 

[Atwood]

In the bible the context of the Word is speaking of Jesus Christ.

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

It is utter nonsense to take all the references to "the Word" and make them equal the Lord Jesus.

1 Thes 2, is just one example:

And for this cause we also thank God without ceasing, that, when ye received from us the word of the message, even the word of God, ye accepted it not as the word of men, but, as it is in truth, the word of God, which also worketh in you that believe.

When the Lord Jesus referred to scripture he said, "The Word of God cannot be broken."

 

[Atwood]

I was set free. Just like before, the second time. I am a living witness that OSAS and ES is a lie.

the word says, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."

Your experience proves nothing. I believe God's word & not you.

Anyone who denies that the Lord Jesus is the SAvior and downgrades Him to a "chance-giver" grievously errs.

May the Lord deliver you from confusion.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent; No Such Thing as Unjustification

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8). Of course there is NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE IN CHRIST. But when one is no longer in Christ, they fall under condemnation.

Your claims are made up, Cassian. The text says nothing about falling under condemnation nor about being no longer in Christ. I don't believe you, but I do believe the word of God that there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For those who currently are in Christ Jesus, no one shall ever be able to lay anything to their charge. The is no condemnation ever, in the present or the future, world without end, Amen.

And I believe the continuation of the theme in Rom 8

For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.


Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
+

 

[Atwood]

Re: General Answer to Caldwell's Canards

Which I would say sorry that you have not seen the meaning towards salvation in those scripture.

Where does the word salvation occur? Where is there a loving Savior who died for you, paid for your sins, and promises to save you from them in your passages? The danger is joining a church, and following a false gospel of works, fooling oneself that one is a Christian, when one has never been born again; never really trusted the Lord Jesus with one's eternal destiny. Telling persons not to trust in the Savior, does not hinder them from sinning. Trying to work your way does not prevent sin. The only way you will ever stop sinning & have eternal life is when you have Savior who saves you from sin, gives you a new nature, and promises eternal life.

It is important realize that we have a real Savior, not just a judge, not just a mere chance-giver. It is important to actually trust Him as Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[RickyZ]

How can I when I was a backslider. Saved by faith and gave up and like a dog returned to my own vomit. Addicted to alcohol for over twenty years. Before, I was teaching the adult Sunday School class and preaching 2 Sunday nights a week.

My faith moved from the work of the cross to what I was doing. The Holy Spirit drew away, because He could not honor my works. Then I got my ducks in a row by the power of The Holy Spirit, through my wife praying and interceding for me and I went back down to the altar and placed that pint on the altar and reached up and took it back. Then I felt hands on me and people praying in other tongues. I put that pint back on the altar and cried Jesus save me.

I was set free. Just like before, the second time. I am a living witness that OSAS and ES is a lie.

There is a difference between being backsliden and being apostate. Back sliding, you still believe, you just don't walk the walk. Being apostate you make a conscious decision to deny the Christ.

 

[newbirth]

There is a difference between being backsliden and being apostate. Back sliding, you still believe, you just don't walk the walk. Being apostate you make a conscious decision to deny the Christ.

if this is so then there is a middle ground ...
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

people teach one can do all sorts of ungodly things and still be a believer,,,believer in what? when one believes in Christ he gets power to become a son...power to follow the spirit. When one stop following the spirit they give up the power or neglect the power to become a son. They no longer believe , the proof of your belief is in your actions.

 

[newbirth]

Re: Fallacy of Denying the Antecedent; No Such Thing as Unjustification

Your claims are made up, Cassian. The text says nothing about falling under condemnation nor about being no longer in Christ. I don't believe you, but I do believe the word of God that there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For those who currently are in Christ Jesus, no one shall ever be able to lay anything to their charge. The is no condemnation ever, in the present or the future, world without end, Amen.

This usually happens when we just look at what Christ has done for us but not what he requires of us ...take a look at vs 4 , vs 12 ...and vs 14 sums it up.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

being in Christ is not just thinking about it but actually emulating him.

 

[Atwood]

"Backslider" Is Not in the NT (ASV; KJV)

How can I when I was a backslider.

Good morning, Kerry,
you asked yesterday why does Paul speak about "backslider."
The simple answer is that Paul does not. I checked the literal ASV and the KJV for occurrences of "backslider," and found no occurrences at all. The term is found in the OT.

The dog returning to his own vomit is a metaphor found, however. To understand metaphors & parables, one controls their meaning with propositional (non-figurative) teaching. The Christian gets a new birth and becomes a Dr. Jekyl; but he also retains the Old Man flesh as an alternative ego ("I am carnal, sold under sin"). The Christian can act as a Dr. Jekyl (Christ) or a Mr. Hyde (his own Adamic self -- there dwells in me, that is in my flesh, no good thing -- Rom 7). It is like 2 sets of clothing the Christian can wear, "put on." Put on the Lord Jesus, we are advised in Rom 13.

One thing is sure, while you cannot ignore your own experience, one cannot base doctrine on the reported experiences of people, subjective, impossible to understand definitively. One may as well try to nail jello to the wall.

Am I correct that your experience is intermingled with pentecostal confusion?

The word tells me "Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins." Thus if one is a "His people" there is the promise that the Lord Jesus will save His people from their sins. Thus the passages about gross sinning (fornicating, drunkard, liar) leading to exclusion from the Kingdom cannot apply to "His people." Gross persistent sinning proves one is not a "His people." Thus, if the gross-sinning passages apply to someone, that someone should realize that his need is a new birth, a Savior who saves from sin. So Biblically a gross-persistent sinner would not be a so-called backslider, but could be a person who at one point was a moralistic sinner, then got into gross sin. (Change from moralistic sinner to gross sinner, then perhaps back to moralistic sinner.)

Saved by faith and gave up and like a dog returned to my own vomit. Addicted to alcohol for over twenty years. Before, I was teaching the adult Sunday School class and preaching 2 Sunday nights a week.

There are many unsaved preachers. You say were "Saved by faith," but your testimony indicates non-saved, not saved by anything. You were not saved from your sins. I don't say it is wrong to "go to the altar," understanding that means merely that you went forward at an invitation in a church. However, there are no altars in churches. The only altar for men today is the cross of Christ. Going forward in church, at the end of the service or any time, is not in the Bible. Praying in so-called tongues as you say appears contradictory to 1 Cor 13-14. Women are ordered to be silent in church, and persons are to wait their turn to speak. Confusion is not of the Lord. If someone can by a miracle speak in a language he never studied, then an interpreter must give an interpretation. I don't believe our modern phenomena is the gift of languages anyway; for 1 Cor 13 says that tongues would cease.

You say that ES is a lie; I say that your experience is a lie as you interpret it. ES has nothing to do with pentecostalism.

As to addiction, if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

As to Eternal security, the scripture has been posted. (I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish & many others). Our task is to interpret our lives within the confines of God's Word; how does God's word interpret it? not vice versa: twist scripture to fit our experience.

To me the whole thing looks like one big satanic confusion.

The word says, to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
It is not to relegate him to the role of a "chance-giver."
He is the Savior who guarantees to save His people from their sins.

Anyone who is into gross, persistent sin, needs a Savior from His sins.
The Lord Jesus offers His services to whomever will trust Him.

 

[Atwood]

if this is so then there is a middle ground ...
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Great verses, but it says nothing about any "middle ground." You are either a saint or an ain't.

people teach one can do all sorts of ungodly things and still be a believer,,,believer in what?

What will you do about the fact that you do lots of ungodly things, NewB?

when one believes in Christ he gets power to become a son...power to follow the spirit.

When one trusts Christ as Savior (instead of chance-giver), one becomes a child of God immediately. Power comes from the Spirit.

When one stop following the spirit they give up the power or neglect the power to become a son.

Do you deny that the power to become a child of God immediately issues in a new birth; you claim that it is something that hangs around impotent until later called into action?
If so , what is your proof of that one?

They no longer believe

There is no scripture where someone trusts Christ as Savior then later stops trusting Him as Savior.
That is made up.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He SHALL save His people from their sins -- no ifs ands or buts.

Can you repent of regarding Him as a chance-giver, & trust Him actually to save you from your sins and give you eternal life?