It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
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Now that is what you say, but this is what God says:
"For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
The point is, as in Hebrews, that to be chastised proves you are a child of God (instead of a pretender church member).
And in this passage there is nothing about losing salvation. The man must be saved or he would not be chastised. And the chastisement is to keep the guy saved.
I don't recall reading anything in the parable of the prodigal son about a Savior or salvation. So you read things in that are not there. Once you have determined doctrine from propositional statements, then you may use the parable to illustrate that.
Now you have your feathers ruffled over the fornication accusation of the older brother, which may or may not be true (older brother wasn't with the younger). But what do you think of those who live not loving neighbor as self? Do you think that might be a worse sins? BTW, the butt of the story is the older brother (did he not say that he had never disobeyed the father's commandments?), not the younger brother.
So who are you?
the younger or the older brother?
"For I verily, being absent in body but present in spirit, have already as though I were present judged him that hath so wrought this thing, in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
The point is, as in Hebrews, that to be chastised proves you are a child of God (instead of a pretender church member).
And in this passage there is nothing about losing salvation. The man must be saved or he would not be chastised. And the chastisement is to keep the guy saved.
I don't recall reading anything in the parable of the prodigal son about a Savior or salvation. So you read things in that are not there. Once you have determined doctrine from propositional statements, then you may use the parable to illustrate that.
Now you have your feathers ruffled over the fornication accusation of the older brother, which may or may not be true (older brother wasn't with the younger). But what do you think of those who live not loving neighbor as self? Do you think that might be a worse sins? BTW, the butt of the story is the older brother (did he not say that he had never disobeyed the father's commandments?), not the younger brother.
So who are you?
the younger or the older brother?
Re: The ES-Wud-Cause-Big-Sin Canard
So failing to trust Christ as Savior, being in unbelief, is not a sin? Where does Rev say that the fearful & unbelieving go? Do you have a fearful disbelief?
And you think that there are bigger sins that failing to love God with all the heart an the neighbor as self???
Any who consider Christ a mere chance-giver,
are urged to trust Him as SAvior today.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
So failing to trust Christ as Savior, being in unbelief, is not a sin? Where does Rev say that the fearful & unbelieving go? Do you have a fearful disbelief?
And you think that there are bigger sins that failing to love God with all the heart an the neighbor as self???
Any who consider Christ a mere chance-giver,
are urged to trust Him as SAvior today.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Do you continue in the wilful sin of denigrating the SAvior to a chance-giver & failing to trust Him as Your Savior?
What we know from scripture is
1) Failing to love God with all the heart is the supreme sin.
2) Failing to love neighbor as self is next to that one.
3) The only way to be delivered from sinful selfishness is a new birth, secured by trusting Christ as SAvior.
4) Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
To any and all who have written off Christ as a mere chance giver,
you are urged to trust Him as only & sufficient savior today.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall have His people from their sins.
What we know from scripture is
1) Failing to love God with all the heart is the supreme sin.
2) Failing to love neighbor as self is next to that one.
3) The only way to be delivered from sinful selfishness is a new birth, secured by trusting Christ as SAvior.
4) Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
To any and all who have written off Christ as a mere chance giver,
you are urged to trust Him as only & sufficient savior today.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall have His people from their sins.
K
There is only one sin that is more than others, and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ( non-belief/denying ).
All other sins are considered by our Lord the same, which is why He compared one who hates his brother as a murderer. There is no distinction with Him.
And if some comes an confesses a sin, you are not to kick them out ( excommunicate ) of the church. You are to talk to them, do to they have taken the first step in confessing it, and then see if they repent and ask for forgiveness of it. If they do not want to repent or ask for forgiveness then you are to bring them before others, if still no, then you are to bring them before the whole congregation. If they still do not repent then you excommunicate them, and pray they will come to see their wrong and repent of it and ask forgiveness.
If they do repent and ask forgiveness than you are to welcome them back with open arms.
All other sins are considered by our Lord the same, which is why He compared one who hates his brother as a murderer. There is no distinction with Him.
And if some comes an confesses a sin, you are not to kick them out ( excommunicate ) of the church. You are to talk to them, do to they have taken the first step in confessing it, and then see if they repent and ask for forgiveness of it. If they do not want to repent or ask for forgiveness then you are to bring them before others, if still no, then you are to bring them before the whole congregation. If they still do not repent then you excommunicate them, and pray they will come to see their wrong and repent of it and ask forgiveness.
If they do repent and ask forgiveness than you are to welcome them back with open arms.
Continue in Willful Sin?
Now I challenge anyone to give me a verse which says that if one continues in willful sin one loses a salvation that one had. (Before you knock yourself out, I advise you that "lose" and "salvation" never even occur in the same verse in the Bible.)
Now is there a limit on the sin of a Christian? Surely there is, for salvation is salvation from sin (the Christian is the savee; Christ is the Savior).
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
One means of saving from sin is Christ's love: The love of Christ constrains me. Another is chastisement.
Jude:
"Now unto him that is able to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of his glory without blemish in exceeding joy, to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen."
Do you know that old hymn:
He is able to deliver thee,
He is able to deliver thee,
though by sin oppressed,
Go to Him for rest,
Our God is able to deliver thee.
Now tell me you who are so hung up on sin:
what is your concern about?
Does it really concern you that you might fail to love the Lord with all your heart some time?
Does it really concern you that you fail to love neighbor as self?
Or does it concern you that you might not establish your own righteousness?
Do you do well to focus on sin, or would you do better to focus on the Savior who loves you and paid for your sins with His precious blood?
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Is it lack of love for Him that motivates your disbelief in Him?
Now I challenge anyone to give me a verse which says that if one continues in willful sin one loses a salvation that one had. (Before you knock yourself out, I advise you that "lose" and "salvation" never even occur in the same verse in the Bible.)
Now is there a limit on the sin of a Christian? Surely there is, for salvation is salvation from sin (the Christian is the savee; Christ is the Savior).
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sin.
One means of saving from sin is Christ's love: The love of Christ constrains me. Another is chastisement.
Jude:
"Now unto him that is able to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of his glory without blemish in exceeding joy, to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and power, before all time, and now, and for evermore. Amen."
Do you know that old hymn:
He is able to deliver thee,
He is able to deliver thee,
though by sin oppressed,
Go to Him for rest,
Our God is able to deliver thee.
Now tell me you who are so hung up on sin:
what is your concern about?
Does it really concern you that you might fail to love the Lord with all your heart some time?
Does it really concern you that you fail to love neighbor as self?
Or does it concern you that you might not establish your own righteousness?
Do you do well to focus on sin, or would you do better to focus on the Savior who loves you and paid for your sins with His precious blood?
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Is it lack of love for Him that motivates your disbelief in Him?
K
I love the Lord our God with all my heart, which is why I do not leave out parts of what He said.
And I do not twist what He said to fit my meaning as you do:
Lord Jesus Christ words: " And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall
be saved. "
The way you say it : The one who is saved endures to the end.
Notice how our Lord puts endurance before being saved, but you put saved before endurance.
The endurance is listed first in this scripture as well as in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and all the others I have shown you. They all say to endure, persevere, run the race, and so on.
I see by your posts your biggest issue still is the fact that the words salvation, saved, and lose do not appear in those scriptures that people give you.
Let me show you something though:
If you save your progress on a computer, it will be there later, but if you don't you will lose it.
If you back up your progress on a computer, it will be there later, but if you don't it will delete your work.
Notice two sentences that mean the same thing, but have different wording. Just because the exact words you are looking for are not in that scripture/sentence does not mean it does not have the same meaning.
And I do not twist what He said to fit my meaning as you do:
Lord Jesus Christ words: " And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall
be saved. "
The way you say it : The one who is saved endures to the end.
Notice how our Lord puts endurance before being saved, but you put saved before endurance.
The endurance is listed first in this scripture as well as in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and all the others I have shown you. They all say to endure, persevere, run the race, and so on.
I see by your posts your biggest issue still is the fact that the words salvation, saved, and lose do not appear in those scriptures that people give you.
Let me show you something though:
If you save your progress on a computer, it will be there later, but if you don't you will lose it.
If you back up your progress on a computer, it will be there later, but if you don't it will delete your work.
Notice two sentences that mean the same thing, but have different wording. Just because the exact words you are looking for are not in that scripture/sentence does not mean it does not have the same meaning.
A
Re: Continue in Willful Sin?
that easy. See this scripture.Hebrews 10:26-31English Standard Version (ESV)
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
it says if we sin willfully, there is no more sacrifice for sins. Does that sound like a saved person?
It says but A fearful expectation of judgment. Does That sound like a saved person?
that easy. See this scripture.Hebrews 10:26-31English Standard Version (ESV)
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
it says if we sin willfully, there is no more sacrifice for sins. Does that sound like a saved person?
It says but A fearful expectation of judgment. Does That sound like a saved person?
That is what you say, Kenneth.
But this is what God's word says:
Christ to Pilate: "Thou wouldest have no power against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath greater sin.
Lam 4
For the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the sin of Sodom,
Luke 12
And that servant, who knew his lord’s will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes; but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.
Since to love the Lord with all the heart is the number 1 commandment, and to love neighbor as self is the next greates commandment, would not violations of these commandments be worse than breaking lesser commandments?
Mat 23:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone. Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!
But whatever the sin, the solution is in the Savior.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people for their sins.
But this is what God's word says:
Christ to Pilate: "Thou wouldest have no power against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath greater sin.
Lam 4
For the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the sin of Sodom,
Luke 12
And that servant, who knew his lord’s will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes; but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.
Since to love the Lord with all the heart is the number 1 commandment, and to love neighbor as self is the next greates commandment, would not violations of these commandments be worse than breaking lesser commandments?
Mat 23:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone. Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!
But whatever the sin, the solution is in the Savior.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people for their sins.
Re: Continue in Willful Sin?
No it doesn't sound like a person who has been given guaranteed salvation from the Savior.
Like other passages, one needs to keep on reading to get the explanation -- go through vs 39.
It also helps to read the preceding context:
By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Vs 39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
No it doesn't sound like a person who has been given guaranteed salvation from the Savior.
Like other passages, one needs to keep on reading to get the explanation -- go through vs 39.
It also helps to read the preceding context:
By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Vs 39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Originally Posted by Atwood
Do you continue in the wilful sin of denigrating the SAvior to a chance-giver & failing to trust Him as Your Savior?
What we know from scripture is
1) Failing to love God with all the heart is the supreme sin.
2) Failing to love neighbor as self is next to that one.
3) The only way to be delivered from sinful selfishness is a new birth, secured by trusting Christ as SAvior.
4) Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
To any and all who have written off Christ as a mere chance giver,
you are urged to trust Him as only & sufficient savior today.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall have His people from their sins.
Kenneth, salvation comes in 3 tenses, as I have posted. Did you see it? You are focusing on future salvation from a passage which is about making it to the end of the Tribulation & then being delivered from persecution.
I point out that the doctrine of eternal security says that those who trust Christ as Savior endure to the end; they endure to the future salvation. Thus to say that he who endures to the end will be saved is true for eternal security, for ES says that all who trust Christ as Savior do endure to the end with final salvation.
Can you not see that even if you twist a verse about physical deliverance on earth to spiritual salvation, it still does not disprove eternal security.
Logically speaking also, you want to deny an antecedent, a logical fallacy. If he endures to the end is saved, that implies nothing about those who do not endure to the end. Those who labored in the field enduring all day got a reward. That says nothing about those hired at the last minute, nor those who quit after one hour. It is called the fallacy of denying an antecedent.
but no matter, Those who trust Christ as Savior are at once saved and a feature of their salvation is enduring to the end and receiving final salvation.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
No, that is an issue, but the biggest issue is that the plain teaching of scripture is eternal security and plastered on this forum. And there is nothing inconsistent with that, particularly from passages which say nothing about losing salvation. I you had exact synonyms that would be acceptable also; but you do not.
To really love the Lord with all the heart is an impossibility without trusting Christ as Savior and getting a transformed new heart. Dismissing him as mere chance-giver and denying that He is the Savior, is not a way to get to loving God.
Do you continue in the wilful sin of denigrating the SAvior to a chance-giver & failing to trust Him as Your Savior?
What we know from scripture is
1) Failing to love God with all the heart is the supreme sin.
2) Failing to love neighbor as self is next to that one.
3) The only way to be delivered from sinful selfishness is a new birth, secured by trusting Christ as SAvior.
4) Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
To any and all who have written off Christ as a mere chance giver,
you are urged to trust Him as only & sufficient savior today.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall have His people from their sins.
Kenneth, salvation comes in 3 tenses, as I have posted. Did you see it? You are focusing on future salvation from a passage which is about making it to the end of the Tribulation & then being delivered from persecution.
I point out that the doctrine of eternal security says that those who trust Christ as Savior endure to the end; they endure to the future salvation. Thus to say that he who endures to the end will be saved is true for eternal security, for ES says that all who trust Christ as Savior do endure to the end with final salvation.
Can you not see that even if you twist a verse about physical deliverance on earth to spiritual salvation, it still does not disprove eternal security.
Logically speaking also, you want to deny an antecedent, a logical fallacy. If he endures to the end is saved, that implies nothing about those who do not endure to the end. Those who labored in the field enduring all day got a reward. That says nothing about those hired at the last minute, nor those who quit after one hour. It is called the fallacy of denying an antecedent.
but no matter, Those who trust Christ as Savior are at once saved and a feature of their salvation is enduring to the end and receiving final salvation.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
No, that is an issue, but the biggest issue is that the plain teaching of scripture is eternal security and plastered on this forum. And there is nothing inconsistent with that, particularly from passages which say nothing about losing salvation. I you had exact synonyms that would be acceptable also; but you do not.
To really love the Lord with all the heart is an impossibility without trusting Christ as Savior and getting a transformed new heart. Dismissing him as mere chance-giver and denying that He is the Savior, is not a way to get to loving God.
K
Really, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ( non-belief/denying ) is the greatest supreme sin.
This is the only one the bible says their is no salvation for.
Loving the God with all your heart, soul, and mind is part of your developing stage. Even the Apostles did not have full faith, and trust in Jesus at first. Lord Jesus even called them, including Peter a couple times, " You of little faith. "
When Jesus walked on water; Did Peter fully trust Him ? NO. Peter had to be helped by our Lord to trust Him, and then what did Peter do after all he been shown, he still went and denied Jesus three more times. Then later on Peter again went against our Lords teachings to them by trying to force traditions on new believers that do not apply to us, in which Paul got on to him about.
Peter is a true example for us for it shows in scriptures that he is in a saved position, but did not have full faith and trust in Jesus Christ all the time.
This is the only one the bible says their is no salvation for.
Loving the God with all your heart, soul, and mind is part of your developing stage. Even the Apostles did not have full faith, and trust in Jesus at first. Lord Jesus even called them, including Peter a couple times, " You of little faith. "
When Jesus walked on water; Did Peter fully trust Him ? NO. Peter had to be helped by our Lord to trust Him, and then what did Peter do after all he been shown, he still went and denied Jesus three more times. Then later on Peter again went against our Lords teachings to them by trying to force traditions on new believers that do not apply to us, in which Paul got on to him about.
Peter is a true example for us for it shows in scriptures that he is in a saved position, but did not have full faith and trust in Jesus Christ all the time.
The issue raised in the greater passages and weightier passage was not said to be failing to believe. Neither is that the blasphemy of the Spirit. Scripture never says that.
Failing to believe is a great sin, so great that it keeps you from salvation.
But my point is that the greatest commandment is to love God with all the heart and neighbor as self is next.
As the greatest commandments, the violation of them is obviously a greater sin that violating lesser commandments. So anyone who thinks that adultery, theft, and murder are so bad, but ignore loving God & neighbor, are quite mistaken.
Do you claim that failure to love is not a great sin?
Why do you want to argue this point?
It has been directly proven to you from scripture that there are greater and lesser sins, aside from the issue of blasphemy, which you want to inject into the discussion. Blasphemy would certainly be a violation of loving God.
Failing to believe is a great sin, so great that it keeps you from salvation.
But my point is that the greatest commandment is to love God with all the heart and neighbor as self is next.
As the greatest commandments, the violation of them is obviously a greater sin that violating lesser commandments. So anyone who thinks that adultery, theft, and murder are so bad, but ignore loving God & neighbor, are quite mistaken.
Do you claim that failure to love is not a great sin?
Why do you want to argue this point?
It has been directly proven to you from scripture that there are greater and lesser sins, aside from the issue of blasphemy, which you want to inject into the discussion. Blasphemy would certainly be a violation of loving God.