It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

newbirth · Jul 15, 2014

Atwood ,we were having a very nice exchange but I looked for a response to my last post to you but found none. Anyway based on what we discussed we had no disagreement so far. Basically what you are saying is after one is saved there is no way he can not attain eternal life. If that were so then what is the purpose of the teachings of the Gospel.
Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
We cannot deny there is something to be learned in Christ,and it has to do with the way we live.
Ephesians 4:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

I will be following the discussions but withholding my inputs, wishing you guys all the best, to EG all the best to you God richly bless you all,...
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Cassian · Jul 15, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Atwood said:

Take a look at your post, Cassian. It is Sola Cassiana. Repeating your party line proves nothing. You need scripture.

As to the JW's, I think they are like most cults and your denomination: they say they believe the Bible, but in fact they only believe it as their organization says what it means.

But the Lord Jesus did not appeal to religious tradition; he proved directly from God's Word: "It is written" for Him settled the argument, and that despite He was God and a prophet.

My POV is OSS = once saved, saved! The outrageous idea that if you are saved, well you are then saved! Rocket Science!

The doctrine of eternal security was taught by the NT. And it is found in the early Church. I would claim those who believed it as likely fellow members with myself in the body of Christ; and I dismiss those who disbelieved it as heretics. Being part of an ecclesiastical organization supported by the Roman Empire is an indication that such men were not in the Church.

Your theory that Eternal Security was not found in the early Church has now been shown to be unprovable. The belief is ancient. So give up on that one. Let us focus on the Word of God.

Here is my latest piece of evidence.

< ps 138
thy right hand will save me.
Jehovah will perfect that which concerns me:
Thy lovingkindness, O Jehovah, endureth forever;

Heb 11:19ff

And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,

Isaiah 26:12
Jehovah, thou wilt ordain peace for us; for thou hast also wrought all our works for us.

Eph 2
but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

Philip 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

To all who have written Him off as chance-giver,
Give it up, rest in the Savior; let Him do the saving. Come to Him as a sinner, repenting of dismissing Him as a chance-giver; trust Him to do it!

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

For most false teachers it comes down to the necessity of minimizing the Truth, for how can a false teaching stand while the Truth convicts them of their error. In your case you have found it necessary to actually demonize, atribute the work of the Holy Spirit as the work of the devil, which is blasphemy. You have trivilized history thus the Church Christ founded and has preserved, which gave you the Bible you so badly abuse. I have never met a person that needs to rewrite scripture as much as you do, now needs to rewrite history just so a false teaching could possibly have some validity. It is the very same thing the RC does regarding the Papacy. All you can do is spout the man made theory and hope something sticks.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Cassian said:

This is not man-made, Dear Cassian:

Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also
foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Hallelujah 'tis done;
I believe on the Son;
I am saved by the blood of the crucified One.

Dear Reader; if you have been downgrading the precious Lord Jesus to a mere chance-giver, trust Him as very Savior now.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

newbirth said:

Good afternoon, NewB.

I don't see anything in your verses about attaining eternal life or not. Of course we know that "make disciples of all nations" involves proclaiming the gospel, but of course also the whole counsel of God on the Christian life.

Yes, there are sinners given over to lasciviousness -- sounds like our present generation. Little or no shame.

I think my last message to you was encouraging you to do your NewB thing, of scripture-mining, marking all the passages on salvation in the Bible. As I think you know, we can argue until we are blue in the face, but God's Word is like a hammer that breaks the bones.

Should we pray, "Yea, have at me Lord with that hammer!" Somehow I like better the "Melt me, mold me, fill me, use me."

Butch5 · Jul 15, 2014

Atwood said:

What does that mean? I a person has eternal life right now why do Christians die?

How do you reconcile your understanding with the words of Jesus?

29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
(Mar 10:29-30 KJV)

That's just what you've done. The Scriptures do say that some stopped believing

So clear? It doesn't even state it once. Drawing inferences doesn't make something, "so clear".

It's just like you said in the other post, it implies. That's all you can supply. In all of the many passages you've posted all that can be said is they imply. And, I would argue that in context they don't even imply OSAS, that's why those who hold OSAS have to post the passages individually, because if they were posted in their context it would clear to see what they are saying.

who believes on the Son of God has the witness in him: he who believes not God has made him a liar; because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that

Click to expand...

More Straw man arguments. The issue isn't believers it's those who stop believing.

Butch5 · Jul 15, 2014

Atwood said:

konroh explained:

Butch5, eternal life is spiritual salvation, spiritual life, a quality of life that continues into the next. Don't misunderstand, Jesus said "He who believes has eternal life", . . . Of course we all die physically, body separated from soul, but eternal life means we will never be separated spiritually from God.

In response, Butch expressed "sorrow" & made a claim, but gave no Bible proof:

ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

John 3: "that which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Butch look at your post to see that it is not according to the Scriptures, but according to Butch. Where is any proof?

[/COLOR]
The salvation of the two (spirit & body) are not mutually exclusive: body & spirit.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

Eternal Security: He will do it. In the topic of salvation, the Lord Jesus is the One who does it. Jesus saves. We (if we trust Him as Savior) are the savee, the one saved.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Any who has imagined that the Lord Jesus is a mere chance-giver, any who regards him as a mere chance-giver, is urged to repent and trust Him as Savior.

Read Gen 2:7. Man is composed of two parts, a body and the breath/spirit of life. The breath/spirit of life belongs to God and returns to him when a man dies and the body returns to the dust. What exactly is left to receive a spiritual salvation?

If you guys would stop proof texting and actually use the Scriptures in context you be much better off.

kennethcadwell · Jul 15, 2014

Atwood I am glad that you like to use the scripture from Romans 8:1, where Paul is speaking to new gentile believers about how we have become a part of our Lord Jesus Christ. He then go through and explains more about how works of flesh are not of grace, but here is where one gets confused about when it comes to works:
Works of the flesh are not beneficial, but works of the spirit are ( and these works are things done out of love, compassion, and care for another )

The after his talking to those new gentile believers he gives this scripture to them, Romans 11:22.

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Note the strong affirmation of eternal security in the proclamation at the end of this presentation, that
the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

Romans 11 addresses the issue of God's faithfulness in his promise and election of Israel in view of the fact that the Church was now predominately Gentile, instead of Jew. The passage is age/dispensational, speaking of large historical movements. The Gentiles are addressed with a collective "thou" as if a single person. The point is that God will fulfill His purpose in electing Israel.
The passage is not about individual salvation.

Look at the passage before the doxology at the end:

I say then, Did God cast off his people? Let it not be so. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. . . .

Even so then at this present time also there is
a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. And David saith,
Let their table be made a snare, and a trap,
And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see,
And bow thou down their back always.

I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? Let it not be so.; but by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. For if the casting away of them [a group, not individual Jews, some of whom are saved, like Paul]
is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and
thou [Gentiles collectively called a "thou"], being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and did become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee [Gentiles as a collective "thee." Thou [Gentiles as a collective "thou"] wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if
thou [Gentiles as a collective "thou"] continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if
thou [Gentiles as a collective "thou"] wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And this is my covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.

As touching the gospel, they [group] are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of. For as ye [group] in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy. For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all."

Note the strong affirmation of eternal security in the proclamation that
the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

This is a general statement about how God works. As Rom 8 said,
foreknew > foreordained > called > justified > glorified.

Let me urge any reading this who have discounted the Saving power of the Savior by considering Him a mere chance-giver, to repent, and to trust Him as only & sufficient Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

Butch5 said:

Butch, you would be much better to quote scripture & prove from it instead pontificating. Don't quote from where Solomon is reasoning under the sun for proof text.

Just how did the Lord Jesus argue? Could it be that He proof-texted?

Better proof-text from scripture, than spoof-text from Butch said it.

"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it."

kennethcadwell · Jul 15, 2014

Salvation is salvation, rather in a collective speaking or individual.

Your philosophy is construed. If one does not get salvation in a collective group, they get personal salvation either.

But you still use only half the scripture for it says about the Jews in vs. 23 that only if they do not continue in unbelief will they be grafted back in. If they still do not believe in Jesus at the end they will be cut off as well.

Everything has to do with one's salvation rather it is listed in the bible as being spoken to a group of people or just one individual. There is now no difference between Jew or Gentile for we all fall under the same grace and love through our Lord Jesus Christ, in which we are to turn and show that same love to others no matter how they live or walk.

Atwood said:

Note the strong affirmation of eternal security in the proclamation at the end of this presentation, that
the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

Romans 11 addresses the issue of God's faithfulness in his promise and election of Israel in view of the fact that the Church was now predominately Gentile, instead of Jew. The passage is age/dispensational, speaking of large historical movements. The Gentiles are addressed with a collective "thou" as if a single person. The point is that God will fulfill His purpose in electing Israel.
The passage is not about individual salvation.

Look at the passage before the doxology at the end:

I say then, Did God cast off his people? Let it not be so. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. . . .

Even so then at this present time also there is
a remnant according to the election of grace. But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day. And David saith,
Let their table be made a snare, and a trap,
And a stumblingblock, and a recompense unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see,
And bow thou down their back always.

I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? Let it not be so.; but by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry; if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them. For if the casting away of them [a group, not individual Jews, some of whom are saved, like Paul]
is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? And if the firstfruit is holy, so is the lump: and if the root is holy, so are the branches. But if some of the branches were broken off, and
thou [Gentiles collectively called a "thou"], being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and did become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree; glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee [Gentiles as a collective "thee." Thou [Gentiles as a collective "thou"] wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God’s goodness, if
thou [Gentiles as a collective "thou"] continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if
thou [Gentiles as a collective "thou"] wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written,
There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer;
He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
And this is my covenant unto them,
When I shall take away their sins.

As touching the gospel, they [group] are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of. For as ye [group] in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you they also may now obtain mercy. For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all."

Note the strong affirmation of eternal security in the proclamation that
the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.

This is a general statement about how God works. As Rom 8 said,
foreknew > foreordained > called > justified > glorified.

Let me urge any reading this who have discounted the Saving power of the Savior by considering Him a mere chance-giver, to repent, and to trust Him as only & sufficient Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

Butch5 said:

< 1 John 5

He who believes on the Son of God has the witness in him: he who believes not God has made him a liar; because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning his Son. And the witness is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who has not the Son of God has not the life. These things have I written to you, that you may know that you have eternal life ,even unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God

< John 11

Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he who believes on me, though he die, yet he shall live; and whosoever lives and believes on me shall never die. Do you believe this?

They are both true. Salvation comes in 3 tenses.

INTRO TO DOCTRINE OF SALVATION (SOTERIOLOGY)

A. IMPORTANCE OF CORRECTNESS

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

B. TOTAL DEPRAVITY OF MAN

Much of our understanding of salvation is influenced by our understanding the man is totally depraved. There is none who does good, no not one. Even the plowing of the unsaved farmer expresses his sinfulness because of his selfish motive, not done to glorify God. Total Depravity does not mean that every man is as evil as he cud be, but that all of his being is affected by sin & nothing he does is good before God.

C. GOD'S PROVISION IS TOTAL & COMPLETE

On the cross Christ said, "It is finished."

Romans 8 ends with an unbreakable chain:
"For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Romans 8: "He who spared not His own son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things."

Gal: "Grace to you..from God the Father & our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, THAT HE MIGHT DELIVER US OUT OF THIS PRESENT EVIL AGE, according to the will of our God & Father"

D. 3 TENSES OF SALVATION: past, present, future.

1. Past Salvation.
We were saved from the guilt & penalty of sin.
The Christian can rightly say after He trusts Christ as savior, "I was saved."
2 Tim 1:8-9 For God did not give us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power & love & discipline. Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, not of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; who SAVED us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose & grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

Eph 2 "God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead thru our trespasses, made us alive together w/ Christ (by grace you have been saved) & raised us up w/ him & made us to sit w/ him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED thru faith; & that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not of works that no man should glory.

2. Present Salvation:
We have deliverance from the Power of Sin.
1 Cor 1:18: ""For the word of the cross is to them who perish foolishness; but to us who ARE BEING SAVED it is the power of God."

2 Cor 2:15: " For we are a sweet savor of Christ to God, in them WHO ARE BEING SAVED, and in them who are perishing; to the one a savor from death unto death; to the other a savor from life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as the many, corrupting the word of God. But as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God, we speak in Christ."

While a depraved child of Adam inevitably sins, a born-again Christian does not have to sin. A way of escape is always made for him. 1 Cor 10:13: There has no temptation taken you but such as man can bear; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

3. Future Salvation:
We shall be saved from the presence of indwelling Sin, be glorified, and live in bliss with the Lord forever.

But God commends his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through him. For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life;

No scripture says that a man who believes in the Lord Jesus as His Savior for eternal life, then stops that belief.

What is more straw than "Butch said it"?

If any have relegated the Savior to being a mere chance-giver, you are urged to repent, and to trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

kennethcadwell · Jul 15, 2014

[h=3]Matthew 7:14 (KJV)[/h]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[h=3]Matthew 7:14 (NKJV)[/h]
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Look at these scriptures and see how they read. They changed the wording from the original KJV to the NKJV so that the context could be easily understood.

Narrow is the way, because only through Jesus Christ can one get salvation, and difficult is the way because some do not want to do the works of love ( not works of the law ).

They want to sit back with an attitude that I have Christ and therefor do not need to do anything, or can even walk in darkness producing nothing but bad works and still be saved. False teaching !!!

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

False, Kenneth. And you just say it without scripture. Rom 11 is about large movements in history, not individual salvation.

say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? Let it not be so.; but by their fall salvation has come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

The fall of Israel is a group fall. Obviously it does not apply to individuals, for Paul is a Jew and all the apostles are Jews. They did not fall; but the nation as a group fell. Salvation came to the Gentiles -- but not all individual Gentiles are saved by any means.

Verse 23 says no such thing; please do not make things up:

"And they too, if they abide not in unbelief, shall be grafted in; for God is able again to graft them in." 11:23 says nothing about the nation of Israel being cut off at the end. The passage deals with groups. Think about it for a moment: While this passage generalizes about Jews & Gentiles, when has there ever been a time when all Jews or all Gentiles were either saved or lost? Never. This passage makes generalizations about groups. Israel never was all saved even before this "cutting off." The Gentiles now are not all saved after this grafting in. But the Church is predominately Gentile now; and it used to be that God worked with Israel before there was the Church.

But do you really think it has ever been true that the entire nation of Israel was saved?

And as a matter of fact, so far as I can tell, Kenneth, you apparently don't believe in salvation nor in the Savior. You apparently believe in salvation by works (contrary to scripture) and in "being given a chance" by a "chance giver."

Don't forget the punch line of Rom 11, which is typical of passages that unbelievers want to throw up as disproof of eternal security, they don't seem to read far enough. For if you keep reading you come to the glorious statement about eternal security that the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This applies in Rom 11 to Israel as a nation is called to national salvation. It applies also to everyone who is given the free gift of eternal life and called. All the called make it to glorification (Rom 8).

Let all those who relegate the Lord Jesus to mere "chance-giver" repent, and trust Him as Savior.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

kennethcadwell · Jul 15, 2014

By your reasoning then, everybody who stood around Christ and received and accepted His message were not all saved.

Once again rather you receive the message in a group and accept it, or some one talks to you one on one with the same message and you accept it. You are still in that saved state in both cases.

There is no difference in new believers back then, and us who have come to Christ now.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

Note how Kenneth makes things up & attacks a straw man of his imagination.
You cannot do anything but trust Christ for salvation.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Bottom line, Kenneth:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

One needs to abandon attempts at self-righteousness, works-salvation, which is no salvation at all. You will be the savee, the object of the Lord Jesus' saving work, or you will not be saved!

One needs to repent of relegating the Savior to a chance-giver, and trust the Savior with one's eternal destiny.

Atwood · Jul 15, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

By the above reasoning, one can just make up & say things & prove nothing from the Word. Accepting a message is not saving; it is trusting the Savior that saves.

Kenneth, I see no sign that you trust Christ as Savior. It appears to me that you trust your own self-righteous works. And moreover, you have denied the Savior, making Him a mere chance-giver.

To be saved, take the position of the publican: "God be merciful to me a sinner."
Believe the Word.
Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved -- not given a chance.

The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

To be saved requires one to enter God's rest & rest from your own works. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins -- not given them a shot at going to Heaven.

You really don't believe that He can and is willing to save you from your sins?
Let go and let the Lord Jesus save you.

2Thewaters · Jul 16, 2014

The world is to be no criterion
for those who follow Jesus.

He has said,
"Marvel not . . . if the world hate you."
"It hated me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world,
the world would love his own;
but because ye are not of the world,
but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you."
Again, it is written,
"Know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God?
Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

"Come out from among them, and be ye separate,
saith the Lord,
and touch not the unclean thing
engage not in their unholy practices,
and I will receive you,
and will be a Father unto you,
and ye shall be my sons and daughters,
saith the Lord Almighty."

Cassian · Jul 16, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Atwood said:

This is not man-made, Dear Cassian:

Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward. For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom he foreknew, he also
foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Hallelujah 'tis done;
I believe on the Son;
I am saved by the blood of the crucified One.

Dear Reader; if you have been downgrading the precious Lord Jesus to a mere chance-giver, trust Him as very Savior now.

As long as you cite texts you are safe. But none of these texts support OSAS. It is your pontification of the man made theory which you think is based on these textx which is false.

Atwood · Jul 16, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Cassian said:

This is no man-made theory. this is about the Savior Who saves His people from their sins. Indeed, I am safe in God's Word and in the Savior Who died for me.

I trust Him -- why cannot you?

Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;

1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.

What will He do?

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins!

Cassian · Jul 16, 2014

Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"

Atwood said:

You have already stated that you do not believe in the same Savior as scripture describes. You do not believe that Christ is actually the Savior of the world. That He saved mankind from the bondage to death and sin so that man and God could unite in a covenantal relationship freely, and attain eternal life.

So, what Savior could you possibly believe in when it is not the one of scripture? I believe in the one of scripture.

It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

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