It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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To the readers of this thread, Eternal security is a lie.
. . .
Paul, nor Peter, nor Luke or James has committed to OSAS.
. . .
Paul, nor Peter, nor Luke or James has committed to OSAS.
James says nothing about eternal security. The Lord Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John do -- which is God's word.
For the audience, here is some of the evidence:
Ps 52
But as for me, I am like a green olive-tree in the house of God:
I trust in the lovingkindness of God for ever and ever.
I will give thee thanks for ever, because thou hast done it;
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
2 Thes 2:16
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Thes. 3:3 “But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and guard you from the evil one.”
3 Tim. 1:12 he sounds a note of rejoicing: “For I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard . . . against that day.”
4:18 the Lord will deliver . . . from every evil work and will save him unto His heavenly kingdom.
ternal,
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Jude 1:24
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,
1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Colossians 1:13
He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Atwood posted:
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
Your denying proves nothing. You haven't even validated that the concept of salvation being lost is a valid concept. If salvation were losable, it wouldn't be salvation -- it might be a chance at getting to Heaven at best. Lose & salvation never occur together even in one verse. The passages I posted most certainly do assert eternal security. Stop changing the subject to lose salvation until you prove that there is such a concept in the Bible. This is a matter of direct statement of scripture.
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirii
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
As I said, you're proof texting passages. Not a single one them says salvation can't be lost.
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirii
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
H
To Atwood, Your post 3582 is well done, NOW, Just add to it , all the verses on Repentance and obedience for eternal life and You will see the WHOLE story of salvation. AS IS, it is one sided , as you have LEFT out the companion verses of the many verses you quoted, typical Fundamentalism. You sound too much like the Late Jerry Falwell. Love Hoffco Please, restudy all of Jh. ch 3. Vs,7-8 are soooo vital, The born again person has the "wind" the effect of the Holy Spirit ,blowing in his life. The holiness of life is sooo important.
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
There names are listed specifically, including Jerome. And the testimony is not to what Augustine believed, but to what professed Christians believed that Aug knew of. I have studied Augustine myself a little. IMHO he did not believe in the perseverance of the regenerated Christian himself. So if Augustine should be rejected for Manicheanism, it would appear then that your theory is in trouble & Eternal security of the believer is supported!
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
[/I][/COLOR]Who are the others?
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
Who did He give that to? The sheep, who were the sheep? The house of Israel.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
I didn't say the doctrine didn't exist, I said it wasn't accepted in the church. It definitely existed, it was doctrine of Gnosticism.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
You've plastered the forum with proof texts rather than exegesis.
And, as yet you've not shown a single passage of Scripture that says one cannot lose their salvation.
You said, "And you cannot quote me even one verse in the Bible where the words "salvation" and "lose" are even in the same verse. There is no such scripture." yet you can't provide one.
This passage says it's through faith. If one loses faith then they lose what the passage says.
He's the author and finisher of the Christian faith.
He is the author and the finisher of the faith that Christians have.
Butch, you must stop making up things. Context has nothing to do with their support of Paul's ministry:
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
We know that Paul did not take up collections for himself when he began ministries in cities.
Anyone who is rejecting Christ as a mere chance-giver is urged to trust Him as Savior.
Note audience:
He who began a good work in you will complete it.
and Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Yes, look at the context, it's talking about their support for Paul's ministry.
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
We know that Paul did not take up collections for himself when he began ministries in cities.
Anyone who is rejecting Christ as a mere chance-giver is urged to trust Him as Savior.
Note audience:
He who began a good work in you will complete it.
and Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
The below is the sum total of Post 3546 by Butch:
No, Butch you did not say that "it wasn't accepted by the Church." YOu said that the doctrine could not be found in church history before the 1500's. Your statement said nothing about "accepted church doctrine," which apparently begs the question as to who is the real Church.
I have posted the proof that the doctrine was in church history long before them, quoting Augustine & also evidence for it in other "church fathers." You try to move the goal post.
It also is in scripture.
[/I][/COLOR]
I didn't say the doctrine didn't exist, I said it wasn't accepted in the church. It definitely existed, it was doctrine of Gnosticism.
I didn't say the doctrine didn't exist, I said it wasn't accepted in the church. It definitely existed, it was doctrine of Gnosticism.
"I can't believe there are 178 pages on a doctrine that can't be found in Scripture or church history prior to the 1500's"
No, Butch you did not say that "it wasn't accepted by the Church." YOu said that the doctrine could not be found in church history before the 1500's. Your statement said nothing about "accepted church doctrine," which apparently begs the question as to who is the real Church.
I have posted the proof that the doctrine was in church history long before them, quoting Augustine & also evidence for it in other "church fathers." You try to move the goal post.
It also is in scripture.
To Atwood, Your post 3582 is well done, NOW, Just add to it , all the verses on Repentance and obedience for eternal life and You will see the WHOLE story of salvation. AS IS, it is one sided , as you have LEFT out the companion verses of the many verses you quoted, typical Fundamentalism. You sound too much like the Late Jerry Falwell. Love Hoffco Please, restudy all of Jh. ch 3. Vs,7-8 are soooo vital, The born again person has the "wind" the effect of the Holy Spirit ,blowing in his life. The holiness of life is sooo important.
Really bringing in Falwell is a poor example of ad hominem argument. But IMHO he was a great man of God.
Repentance = metanoia = change of mind. The only change of mind that saves is from non-belief to belief; thus it is another way of saying the same thing as believe. Metamelomai is having sorrow over sin like Judas did, who hanged himself. Being sorry & turning over a new leaf save no one.
The only obedience that saves is obeying this command:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved. General obedience to commandments is works, which does not save.
I am temped to say something about wind, but will refrain.
Luke 13:6-9
6He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
6He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
Get a grip man; focus on the promises of God.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
The Golden Chain of Rom 8
foreknew > foreordained > called > justified > glorified.
Justification is by faith, thus if you have faith in the Lord Jesus you are justfied & thus glorified -- you are already guaranteed Heaven, for in God's plan is it already done.
I posted before:
foreknew-foreordained-called-justified-glorified.
This is an unbreakable chain. & nothing can separate the Christian from the special love in Christ Jesus.
Butch objected:
But we know that glorification awaits the future for living Christians. Thus it is a done-deal as far as the Lord is concerned. As Christ said on the cross, "It is finished." And the Lord used the past tense. Putting it in the past tense hardly implies insecurity.
The entire chain of events was already done before any of us were born. Those who are presently trust the Savior know they are justified and thus know that their justification is a necessary occurrence for all whom God foreknew, foreordained & called. And they know that glorification is inevitable for them; they are eternally secure.
foreknew > foreordained > called > justified > glorified.
Justification is by faith, thus if you have faith in the Lord Jesus you are justfied & thus glorified -- you are already guaranteed Heaven, for in God's plan is it already done.
I posted before:
foreknew-foreordained-called-justified-glorified.
This is an unbreakable chain. & nothing can separate the Christian from the special love in Christ Jesus.
Butch objected:
Notice all of the verbs are past tense. If you read it in context you'll see that it's talking about the past not the future.
The entire chain of events was already done before any of us were born. Those who are presently trust the Savior know they are justified and thus know that their justification is a necessary occurrence for all whom God foreknew, foreordained & called. And they know that glorification is inevitable for them; they are eternally secure.
Eternal Security in the Old Testament
< ps 138
thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:
Thy lovingkindness, O YHWH, endures forever;
Heb 11:19ff
And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith [the faith they had as believers], received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto
Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith [the faith that we have as believers], who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
Isaiah 26:12
YHWH, you wilt ordain peace for us; for
You have also wrought all our works for us.
< Eph 2
but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for
good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Philip 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.
Anyone who has downgraded the Savior to a mere "chance-giver," needs to repent & to trust the Lord Jesus as Savior.
< ps 138
thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:
Thy lovingkindness, O YHWH, endures forever;
Heb 11:19ff
And these all, having had witness borne to them through their faith [the faith they had as believers], received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto
Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith [the faith that we have as believers], who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
Isaiah 26:12
YHWH, you wilt ordain peace for us; for
You have also wrought all our works for us.
< Eph 2
but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for
good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.
Philip 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.
Anyone who has downgraded the Savior to a mere "chance-giver," needs to repent & to trust the Lord Jesus as Savior.
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
There names are listed specifically, including Jerome. And the testimony is not to what Augustine believed, but to what professed Christians believed that Aug knew of. I have studied Augustine myself a little. IMHO he did not believe in the perseverance of the regenerated Christian himself. So if Augustine should be rejected for Manicheanism, it would appear then that your theory is in trouble & Eternal security of the believer is supported!
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
He's the author and finisher of the Christian faith.
Your typical use of Church Fathers is is incorrect as well,. In the Church it has never been man who determines what scripture means. If you studied early Church history you should also know that any and every false teaching came from men within the Church. Every false teaching is based on scripture -man's interpretation.
What matters is what the Church believed and the Church has never held to OSAS or ES or OOS. It is a fact of history and a fact about what scripture means,. There has never been such a belief as OSAS
You can continue to claim such but one thing you cannot do is change history,change Church history, or change the meaning of scripture.
He is the author and the finisher of the faith that Christians have.
Butch, you must stop making up things. Context has nothing to do with their support of Paul's ministry:
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
We know that Paul did not take up collections for himself when he began ministries in cities.
Anyone who is rejecting Christ as a mere chance-giver is urged to trust Him as Savior.
Note audience:
He who began a good work in you will complete it.
and Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Butch, you must stop making up things. Context has nothing to do with their support of Paul's ministry:
I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, 4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, 5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace. 8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
We know that Paul did not take up collections for himself when he began ministries in cities.
Anyone who is rejecting Christ as a mere chance-giver is urged to trust Him as Savior.
Note audience:
He who began a good work in you will complete it.
and Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
What matters is what the Church believed and the Church has never held to OSAS or ES or OOS. It is a fact of history and a fact about what scripture means,. There has never been such a belief as OSAS
You can continue to claim such but one thing you cannot do is change history,change Church history, or change the meaning of scripture.
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
There names are listed specifically, including Jerome. And the testimony is not to what Augustine believed, but to what professed Christians believed that Aug knew of. I have studied Augustine myself a little. IMHO he did not believe in the perseverance of the regenerated Christian himself. So if Augustine should be rejected for Manicheanism, it would appear then that your theory is in trouble & Eternal security of the believer is supported!
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
No, He is the author & finisher of the Christian's faith, faith in the Savior.
Your attempt to interpret the word faith does not fit the context. The context is the faith of OT heroes, not a body of doctrine. Samson, etc. did great things by trusting YHWH, not by a body of doctrine.
" And these all, having had witness borne to them through
their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
I presented the proof that in the early Church the doctrine of eternal security existed, as opposed to the canard that it never existed until the 1500's. There is nothing incorrect. The references to Augustine's City of God were provided, not to prove what Aug believed, but for his testimony as to the fact that believers in eternal security existed.
I not only studied it, but I taught it on university level. Now I wait for you after the desparaging "if you studied" to next come back to me & act like I should not have refuted your sneer, and how you don't care what I studied or taught!
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
He's the author and finisher of the Christian faith.
Your attempt to interpret the word faith does not fit the context. The context is the faith of OT heroes, not a body of doctrine. Samson, etc. did great things by trusting YHWH, not by a body of doctrine.
" And these all, having had witness borne to them through
their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
Your typical use of Church Fathers is is incorrect as well,. In the Church it has never been man who determines what scripture means.
If you studied early Church history
you should also know that any and every false teaching came from men within the Church.
Your saying that proves nothing. Apostasy in 1 John 2 is defined as being the result of those who were never part of the Body of Christ leaving. I doubt that Alexander the Coppersmith was ever a part of the church at Ephesus.
What is your proof of that?
I defend Eternal Security & OSS = Once saved, saved. Your claims are just you saying it Cassian. Thus they go nowhere & fall with a thud. Eternal Security is abundantly taught in the Bible & have have posted the evidence. And you would claim that Jerome is not a part of Church History -- give us a break.
Dear Cassian,
Are you aware that in your posts you frequently just make assertions without quoting Bible? Perhaps you are so used to repeating your denominational lines that you think everyone will bow down to them without Bible proof.
But I wish you the best; you see by conversing with me you will be exposed to Bible, and who knows what the result of that may be.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
When will you repent of reducing Christ to a chance giver & make Him your Savior?
Your saying that proves nothing. Apostasy in 1 John 2 is defined as being the result of those who were never part of the Body of Christ leaving. I doubt that Alexander the Coppersmith was ever a part of the church at Ephesus.
Every false teaching is based on scripture -man's interpretation.
What matters is what the Church believed and the Church has never held to OSAS or ES or OOS. It is a fact of history and a fact about what scripture means,. There has never been such a belief as OSAS
Dear Cassian,
Are you aware that in your posts you frequently just make assertions without quoting Bible? Perhaps you are so used to repeating your denominational lines that you think everyone will bow down to them without Bible proof.
But I wish you the best; you see by conversing with me you will be exposed to Bible, and who knows what the result of that may be.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
When will you repent of reducing Christ to a chance giver & make Him your Savior?
Butch, you just go on saying things. If you want to prove something, quote your verse, otherwise you are dismissed are irrelevant pontification. I have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt both that eternal security is in the Bible, OT & NT, and that it is attested as an extant doctrine in the early church after the NT.
"And I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever."
"And I shall dwell in the House of the Lord forever."
You keep posting passages that say believer have eternal, no one has questioned that. However, what you haven't shown is where a person can't stop believing, that's the real issue.
It doesn't matter if you post a million passages of Scripture that speak about believers. In order for you to prove OSAS you have to prove that believer cannot stop believing and turn away and you can't do that. We see in Scripture people who turn away. So, in reality your posting all of these passages is nothing more than a straw man argument.
Regardless of the translation of
לארך ימים
"The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want" implies eternal security. He shall have no lack of blessing in the future.
"The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want" implies eternal security. He shall have no lack of blessing in the future.
The passage you quoted from David seems to "imply" eternal salvation because you already came to the text with that idea. There is nothing in the text that demands that interpretation it's simply imposed on the text. It can just as easily be understood as David dwelling in the house of the Lord for the rest of his life.
The context does not limit the statement to the Jews. The idea that the Lord will save only the Jews from their sins and that persons in the Church are not His people, is preposterous. The people to be saved from sins are limited to His People, not the Jews.
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
There is no where in scripture where someone believes in Christ as Savior and then stops. Moreover the future promise is based on a present belief, not on a future belief. Moreover the present believer has overcome in the past as a complete action with consequences leading forward in time from that past overcoming.
[SUP]11[/SUP] But refuse the younger widows; for when they have begun to grow wanton against Christ, they desire to marry,
[SUP]12[/SUP] having condemnation because they have cast off their first faith.
[SUP]13[/SUP] And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not.
[SUP]14[/SUP] Therefore I desire that the younger widows marry, bear children, manage the house, give no opportunity to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
[SUP]15[/SUP] For some have already turned aside after Satan.
(1Ti 5:11-15 NKJ)
The promise is based on continuous belief. If one disbelieves after having believed there is no return. Therefore a present belief must be a continuous belief.
Moreover the present believer has overcome in the past as a complete action with consequences leading forward in time from that past overcoming.
THE OVERCOMER
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes [presently] will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world:
It is not about stopping anything. The statement implies that you are an overcomer because begotten of God. That is an event. You don't have to be constantly begotten anew; which is nonsense. The person who presently overcomes is a present believer. And that person has the future promise of his name never being blotted out!
That is eternal security.
and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth
that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Revelation 3:5
The one who overcomes [presently] will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father… 1 John 5:4-5 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world:
It is not about stopping anything. The statement implies that you are an overcomer because begotten of God. That is an event. You don't have to be constantly begotten anew; which is nonsense. The person who presently overcomes is a present believer. And that person has the future promise of his name never being blotted out!
That is eternal security.
and this is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he who overcomes the world, but he that believeth
that Jesus is the Son of God? For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.
This is but one passage of many that teach the eternal security of the believer.
This is but one passage of many that teach the eternal security of the believer.
Again, it’s a straw man.
nyone who has dismissed the Savior as a mere chance-giver needs to repent & trust the the Lord Jesus as His Savior.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
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Re: The Golden Chain of Rom 8
If you'll stop proof texting and look at context it becomes pretty clear.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
(Rom 8:28-30 NKJ)
The word "know" in verse 28 is "oidamen" and is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present (when Paul was writing the letter). "Oidamen" means to perceive or to know by seeing. In this passage Paul is addressing the Jewish believers at the Church in Rome and he says to them we have known that God works all things together for good to those who love the Lord. How would Paul's readers know this if it was some future event? They wouldn't. It's not a future event. All of the verbs are in the past tense because the passage is speaking of past events. Those who God foreknew are men such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. God did, call, predestine, justified and glorify these men.
The whole passage is to encourage these believers. Seeing what God had done for His people in the past would encourage them because they could see it for themselves.
foreknew > foreordained > called > justified > glorified.
Justification is by faith, thus if you have faith in the Lord Jesus you are justfied & thus glorified -- you are already guaranteed Heaven, for in God's plan is it already done.
I posted before:
foreknew-foreordained-called-justified-glorified.
This is an unbreakable chain. & nothing can separate the Christian from the special love in Christ Jesus.
Butch objected:
But we know that glorification awaits the future for living Christians. Thus it is a done-deal as far as the Lord is concerned. As Christ said on the cross, "It is finished." And the Lord used the past tense. Putting it in the past tense hardly implies insecurity.
The entire chain of events was already done before any of us were born. Those who are presently trust the Savior know they are justified and thus know that their justification is a necessary occurrence for all whom God foreknew, foreordained & called. And they know that glorification is inevitable for them; they are eternally secure.
Justification is by faith, thus if you have faith in the Lord Jesus you are justfied & thus glorified -- you are already guaranteed Heaven, for in God's plan is it already done.
I posted before:
foreknew-foreordained-called-justified-glorified.
This is an unbreakable chain. & nothing can separate the Christian from the special love in Christ Jesus.
Butch objected:
But we know that glorification awaits the future for living Christians. Thus it is a done-deal as far as the Lord is concerned. As Christ said on the cross, "It is finished." And the Lord used the past tense. Putting it in the past tense hardly implies insecurity.
The entire chain of events was already done before any of us were born. Those who are presently trust the Savior know they are justified and thus know that their justification is a necessary occurrence for all whom God foreknew, foreordained & called. And they know that glorification is inevitable for them; they are eternally secure.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
(Rom 8:28-30 NKJ)
The word "know" in verse 28 is "oidamen" and is in the perfect tense. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present (when Paul was writing the letter). "Oidamen" means to perceive or to know by seeing. In this passage Paul is addressing the Jewish believers at the Church in Rome and he says to them we have known that God works all things together for good to those who love the Lord. How would Paul's readers know this if it was some future event? They wouldn't. It's not a future event. All of the verbs are in the past tense because the passage is speaking of past events. Those who God foreknew are men such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc. God did, call, predestine, justified and glorify these men.
The whole passage is to encourage these believers. Seeing what God had done for His people in the past would encourage them because they could see it for themselves.
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
Dude,
We're speaking of church history. Some pastor such a Augustine making a statement isn't church history, it's his opinion. Church history is what the Church taught, and it didn't teach OSAS.
The below is the sum total of Post 3546 by Butch:
No, Butch you did not say that "it wasn't accepted by the Church." YOu said that the doctrine could not be found in church history before the 1500's. Your statement said nothing about "accepted church doctrine," which apparently begs the question as to who is the real Church.
I have posted the proof that the doctrine was in church history long before them, quoting Augustine & also evidence for it in other "church fathers." You try to move the goal post.
It also is in scripture.
No, Butch you did not say that "it wasn't accepted by the Church." YOu said that the doctrine could not be found in church history before the 1500's. Your statement said nothing about "accepted church doctrine," which apparently begs the question as to who is the real Church.
I have posted the proof that the doctrine was in church history long before them, quoting Augustine & also evidence for it in other "church fathers." You try to move the goal post.
It also is in scripture.
We're speaking of church history. Some pastor such a Augustine making a statement isn't church history, it's his opinion. Church history is what the Church taught, and it didn't teach OSAS.
Atwood posted:
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
Your denying proves nothing. You haven't even validated that the concept of salvation being lost is a valid concept. If salvation were losable, it wouldn't be salvation -- it might be a chance at getting to Heaven at best. Lose & salvation never occur together even in one verse. The passages I posted most certainly do assert eternal security. Stop changing the subject to lose salvation until you prove that there is such a concept in the Bible. This is a matter of direct statement of scripture.
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
Your denying proves nothing. You haven't even validated that the concept of salvation being lost is a valid concept. If salvation were losable, it wouldn't be salvation -- it might be a chance at getting to Heaven at best. Lose & salvation never occur together even in one verse. The passages I posted most certainly do assert eternal security. Stop changing the subject to lose salvation until you prove that there is such a concept in the Bible. This is a matter of direct statement of scripture.
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirii
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirii
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Again, if this is a Biblical doctrine you should be able to go to the Scriptures and show us where this teaching was taught in the Scriptures, please do so.
Atwood posted:
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
Your denying proves nothing. You haven't even validated that the concept of salvation being lost is a valid concept. If salvation were losable, it wouldn't be salvation -- it might be a chance at getting to Heaven at best. Lose & salvation never occur together even in one verse. The passages I posted most certainly do assert eternal security. Stop changing the subject to lose salvation until you prove that there is such a concept in the Bible. This is a matter of direct statement of scripture.
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirii
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
On the contrary, the concept of salvation being lost is foreign to scripture. There is not lone passage where salvation & lost even appear in the same verse. The big pile of scripture I posted proclaims the eternal security of the one who trusts in Christ, His people, His sheep. It is the direct statement of the scriptures.
Your denying proves nothing. You haven't even validated that the concept of salvation being lost is a valid concept. If salvation were losable, it wouldn't be salvation -- it might be a chance at getting to Heaven at best. Lose & salvation never occur together even in one verse. The passages I posted most certainly do assert eternal security. Stop changing the subject to lose salvation until you prove that there is such a concept in the Bible. This is a matter of direct statement of scripture.
1 Thes 5 end:
"And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He Who calls you, Who will also do it.
End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
2 Tim 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 3:20-21
But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Ps 138
"thy right hand will save me.
YHWH will perfect that which concerns me:"
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirii
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hebrews 10:14
For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
John 4:14
But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.
John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Psalm 34:22
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him will be condemned.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Give me you number one proof text in support of OSAS. Just one passage, the most sure one you have.
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
There names are listed specifically, including Jerome. And the testimony is not to what Augustine believed, but to what professed Christians believed that Aug knew of. I have studied Augustine myself a little. IMHO he did not believe in the perseverance of the regenerated Christian himself. So if Augustine should be rejected for Manicheanism, it would appear then that your theory is in trouble & Eternal security of the believer is supported!
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
No, He is the author & finisher of the Christian's faith, faith in the Savior.
Your attempt to interpret the word faith does not fit the context. The context is the faith of OT heroes, not a body of doctrine. Samson, etc. did great things by trusting YHWH, not by a body of doctrine.
" And these all, having had witness borne to them through
their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
I presented the proof that in the early Church the doctrine of eternal security existed, as opposed to the canard that it never existed until the 1500's. There is nothing incorrect. The references to Augustine's City of God were provided, not to prove what Aug believed, but for his testimony as to the fact that believers in eternal security existed.
I not only studied it, but I taught it on university level. Now I wait for you after the desparaging "if you studied" to next come back to me & act like I should not have refuted your sneer, and how you don't care what I studied or taught!
You still do not understand the use of the Church Fathers. The ONLY way a believe is declared heretical is because there were many who believed it going against the doctrine of the Church. There are several teachings that are actually heretical but were never declared heretical because the person teaching it did not garner any followers and it died of itself.
You can believe that Christ was created, and not part of the Trinity as well. It is known as Arianism which was declared heretical. But at the time it was actually declared heretical over half of the Church living membership believed it. But it still was declared heretical because it was not believed by the Body from the beginning.
You can argue all day for any heretical teaching as to having followers because that is precisely why it was declared heretical. But man has never determined the doctrine of the Church. The Original Revelation given in the beginning is what is being preserved in time by the Holy Spirit.
However, the very first time that OSAS was actually adopted as a faith and became the actual belief system by a church(sectarian group/denomination) was by Calvin/Calvinists.
As to understanding the scriptures, I won't even put myself in the mix, but I can assure you your opponents understand it much better than you do. You have denied most of what scripture teaches, reconstructed it to wrap around your false notion of OSAS/ES.
If it were just my claims you would have no trouble refuting them, but unfortunately you cannot even find anything to support your view as scripture has always been believed, how could you refute what I stated?
I should also note that if you want to use Jerome for ES then you should also accept his view on Purgatory because ES for HIm is the source or support for Purgatory. So, do you also believe in Purgatory?
You claim you have studied Church history and you continually ask these uninformed questions. Two proofs, if not of scripture, it could not be a false teaching of scripture. Secondly, history cornfirms it. Name a false teaching that is not based on scripture? Yours, OSAS/ES is based on scripture. Non-Trinitarianism is based on Scripture. Arianism is based on scripture, Nestorianism is based on scripture. Original Sin is based on scripture, Universalism is based on scripture. Satisfaction theory of Atonement is based on Scripture. Monotheletism is based on scripture, Montanism is based on scripture.
For someone who claims to know both scripture and history, you exhibit just the opposite.
I could list them all for you but I will leave you to do much more and better study of Church history.
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
No, He is the author & finisher of the Christian's faith, faith in the Savior.
Your attempt to interpret the word faith does not fit the context. The context is the faith of OT heroes, not a body of doctrine. Samson, etc. did great things by trusting YHWH, not by a body of doctrine.
" And these all, having had witness borne to them through
their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
I presented the proof that in the early Church the doctrine of eternal security existed, as opposed to the canard that it never existed until the 1500's. There is nothing incorrect. The references to Augustine's City of God were provided, not to prove what Aug believed, but for his testimony as to the fact that believers in eternal security existed.
I not only studied it, but I taught it on university level. Now I wait for you after the desparaging "if you studied" to next come back to me & act like I should not have refuted your sneer, and how you don't care what I studied or taught!
you should also know that any and every false teaching came from men within the Church.
Your saying that proves nothing. Apostasy in 1 John 2 is defined as being the result of those who were never part of the Body of Christ leaving. I doubt that Alexander the Coppersmith was ever a part of the church at Ephesus.
What is your proof of that?
I defend Eternal Security & OSS = Once saved, saved. Your claims are just you saying it Cassian. Thus they go nowhere & fall with a thud. Eternal Security is abundantly taught in the Bible & have have posted the evidence. And you would claim that Jerome is not a part of Church History -- give us a break.
Dear Cassian,
Are you aware that in your posts you frequently just make assertions without quoting Bible? Perhaps you are so used to repeating your denominational lines that you think everyone will bow down to them without Bible proof.
But I wish you the best; you see by conversing with me you will be exposed to Bible, and who knows what the result of that may be.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
When will you repent of reducing Christ to a chance giver & make Him your Savior?
Your saying that proves nothing. Apostasy in 1 John 2 is defined as being the result of those who were never part of the Body of Christ leaving. I doubt that Alexander the Coppersmith was ever a part of the church at Ephesus.
What is your proof of that?
I defend Eternal Security & OSS = Once saved, saved. Your claims are just you saying it Cassian. Thus they go nowhere & fall with a thud. Eternal Security is abundantly taught in the Bible & have have posted the evidence. And you would claim that Jerome is not a part of Church History -- give us a break.
Dear Cassian,
Are you aware that in your posts you frequently just make assertions without quoting Bible? Perhaps you are so used to repeating your denominational lines that you think everyone will bow down to them without Bible proof.
But I wish you the best; you see by conversing with me you will be exposed to Bible, and who knows what the result of that may be.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
When will you repent of reducing Christ to a chance giver & make Him your Savior?
You can believe that Christ was created, and not part of the Trinity as well. It is known as Arianism which was declared heretical. But at the time it was actually declared heretical over half of the Church living membership believed it. But it still was declared heretical because it was not believed by the Body from the beginning.
You can argue all day for any heretical teaching as to having followers because that is precisely why it was declared heretical. But man has never determined the doctrine of the Church. The Original Revelation given in the beginning is what is being preserved in time by the Holy Spirit.
However, the very first time that OSAS was actually adopted as a faith and became the actual belief system by a church(sectarian group/denomination) was by Calvin/Calvinists.
As to understanding the scriptures, I won't even put myself in the mix, but I can assure you your opponents understand it much better than you do. You have denied most of what scripture teaches, reconstructed it to wrap around your false notion of OSAS/ES.
If it were just my claims you would have no trouble refuting them, but unfortunately you cannot even find anything to support your view as scripture has always been believed, how could you refute what I stated?
I should also note that if you want to use Jerome for ES then you should also accept his view on Purgatory because ES for HIm is the source or support for Purgatory. So, do you also believe in Purgatory?
My statement...."Every false teaching is based on scripture -man's interpretation."
Your response..."What is your proof of that?"
Your response..."What is your proof of that?"
For someone who claims to know both scripture and history, you exhibit just the opposite.
I could list them all for you but I will leave you to do much more and better study of Church history.
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Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
Well Cassian, you do go on. Do you realize that in all the above that you posted, there is not one verse of scripture? It all goes thud on the ground, as our opinions are unimportant; religious tradition is unimportant, what is important is "Thus saith the Lord," It is written.
I proved what I set out to prove, namely that the POV of eternal security existed in the early Church after the NT was over.
But despite that, you want to still move Eternal Security to the time of Calvin. I have utterly disproven that contention. Bringing in "as faith" and "actual belief system by a church" is unprovable and irrelevant. And your use of "a church" is incorrect, as there is but one Church -- denominations are not churches. My contention is that persons have trusted the Lord Jesus as Savior (not mere chance-giver) since the time He made His first disciples. This is not some "system." This is not some "faith." This is some sinner trusting the Savior to make them over and give them the gift of eternal life, so that they never perish. Eternal security is the fact that those who trust Christ as Savior have eternal life, do not perish, and shall live forever in bliss in fellowship with the Lord Jesus. There is no losing of salvation in the Bible. And the belief in Eternal Security is found in both in the NT and in the early Church.
To me it doesn't matter a fig what thought the old boys in long robes in ecclesiastical positions, particularly with the blessing of the Roman government, East or West. I do not consider them my "fathers" in any sense. I count myself a part of the Body of Christ, the Church, which rarely if ever in history is appreciated by government, as is often persecuted by the same.
So you fail to move Eternal Security to the 1500's. It was from the getgo. And if you don't appreciate those believers, and want to associate their POV with heresies, that is you saying it, which proves nothing.
But I warn you that to downgrade the Savior to a chance-giver and deny that He is the Savior Who saves His people from their sins is a serious heresy. Anyone who thinks that way needs to repent and actually trust Christ as Savior.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
There names are listed specifically, including Jerome. And the testimony is not to what Augustine believed, but to what professed Christians believed that Aug knew of. I have studied Augustine myself a little. IMHO he did not believe in the perseverance of the regenerated Christian himself. So if Augustine should be rejected for Manicheanism, it would appear then that your theory is in trouble & Eternal security of the believer is supported!
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
No, He is the author & finisher of the Christian's faith, faith in the Savior.
Your attempt to interpret the word faith does not fit the context. The context is the faith of OT heroes, not a body of doctrine. Samson, etc. did great things by trusting YHWH, not by a body of doctrine.
" And these all, having had witness borne to them through
their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
I presented the proof that in the early Church the doctrine of eternal security existed, as opposed to the canard that it never existed until the 1500's. There is nothing incorrect. The references to Augustine's City of God were provided, not to prove what Aug believed, but for his testimony as to the fact that believers in eternal security existed.
I not only studied it, but I taught it on university level. Now I wait for you after the desparaging "if you studied" to next come back to me & act like I should not have refuted your sneer, and how you don't care what I studied or taught!
You still do not understand the use of the Church Fathers. The ONLY way a believe is declared heretical is because there were many who believed it going against the doctrine of the Church. There are several teachings that are actually heretical but were never declared heretical because the person teaching it did not garner any followers and it died of itself.
You can believe that Christ was created, and not part of the Trinity as well. It is known as Arianism which was declared heretical. But at the time it was actually declared heretical over half of the Church living membership believed it. But it still was declared heretical because it was not believed by the Body from the beginning.
You can argue all day for any heretical teaching as to having followers because that is precisely why it was declared heretical. But man has never determined the doctrine of the Church. The Original Revelation given in the beginning is what is being preserved in time by the Holy Spirit.
However, the very first time that OSAS was actually adopted as a faith and became the actual belief system by a church(sectarian group/denomination) was by Calvin/Calvinists.
As to understanding the scriptures, I won't even put myself in the mix, but I can assure you your opponents understand it much better than you do. You have denied most of what scripture teaches, reconstructed it to wrap around your false notion of OSAS/ES.
If it were just my claims you would have no trouble refuting them, but unfortunately you cannot even find anything to support your view as scripture has always been believed, how could you refute what I stated?
I should also note that if you want to use Jerome for ES then you should also accept his view on Purgatory because ES for HIm is the source or support for Purgatory. So, do you also believe in Purgatory?
You claim you have studied Church history and you continually ask these uninformed questions. Two proofs, if not of scripture, it could not be a false teaching of scripture. Secondly, history cornfirms it. Name a false teaching that is not based on scripture? Yours, OSAS/ES is based on scripture. Non-Trinitarianism is based on Scripture. Arianism is based on scripture, Nestorianism is based on scripture. Original Sin is based on scripture, Universalism is based on scripture. Satisfaction theory of Atonement is based on Scripture. Monotheletism is based on scripture, Montanism is based on scripture.
For someone who claims to know both scripture and history, you exhibit just the opposite.
I could list them all for you but I will leave you to do much more and better study of Church history.
It has been proven now that in the early church there were those who believed in eternal security. The doctrine did not arise in the 1500's. The goal post may not be moved to proving that the Church did not accept it until the 1500's by you, since you don't agree that it was then accepted either.
It has been proven that both in the NT and in the early Church their was belief in eternal security. It has not been proven that this belief has anything to do with the Manicheans or Gnostics, none of whose works you have quoted. It is a well attested claim that Origen was a universalist. Your quote of him I did not find very comprehensible as to any implication on that subject.
If you have the theory that "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish" applies only to Israel, that is absurd. The House of Israel rejected the Lord and perished. Sheep were both in Israel & of the Gentiles in the Church. He said He had sheep of another fold.
The sheep are those who believe in Him.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [prophecy of the Church] 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.. . .
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Lets see the proof for any of that. The Church is those who trust Christ as SAvior (not "chance-giver"), thus you have no proof that it was not accepted by the Church. Neither have you proven that those you call "Church fathers" were in the Church.
The doctrine of eternal security is clearly in the Bible; thus it was accepted by the Church.
The doctrine is plainly taught by the verses quoted. Believe it or reject it at your own peril.
I have quoted many verses that teach eternal security. "Lose salvation" is a figment of your imagination. Show that such a concept even exists.
I can't provide you with an example of what doesn't exist. You have to show that "lose salvation" is in the Bible to establish your theory. But you cannot.
That statement is a straight out logical fallacy called "denying the antecedent."
No, He is the author & finisher of the Christian's faith, faith in the Savior.
Your attempt to interpret the word faith does not fit the context. The context is the faith of OT heroes, not a body of doctrine. Samson, etc. did great things by trusting YHWH, not by a body of doctrine.
" And these all, having had witness borne to them through
their faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
I presented the proof that in the early Church the doctrine of eternal security existed, as opposed to the canard that it never existed until the 1500's. There is nothing incorrect. The references to Augustine's City of God were provided, not to prove what Aug believed, but for his testimony as to the fact that believers in eternal security existed.
I not only studied it, but I taught it on university level. Now I wait for you after the desparaging "if you studied" to next come back to me & act like I should not have refuted your sneer, and how you don't care what I studied or taught!
You still do not understand the use of the Church Fathers. The ONLY way a believe is declared heretical is because there were many who believed it going against the doctrine of the Church. There are several teachings that are actually heretical but were never declared heretical because the person teaching it did not garner any followers and it died of itself.
You can believe that Christ was created, and not part of the Trinity as well. It is known as Arianism which was declared heretical. But at the time it was actually declared heretical over half of the Church living membership believed it. But it still was declared heretical because it was not believed by the Body from the beginning.
You can argue all day for any heretical teaching as to having followers because that is precisely why it was declared heretical. But man has never determined the doctrine of the Church. The Original Revelation given in the beginning is what is being preserved in time by the Holy Spirit.
However, the very first time that OSAS was actually adopted as a faith and became the actual belief system by a church(sectarian group/denomination) was by Calvin/Calvinists.
As to understanding the scriptures, I won't even put myself in the mix, but I can assure you your opponents understand it much better than you do. You have denied most of what scripture teaches, reconstructed it to wrap around your false notion of OSAS/ES.
If it were just my claims you would have no trouble refuting them, but unfortunately you cannot even find anything to support your view as scripture has always been believed, how could you refute what I stated?
I should also note that if you want to use Jerome for ES then you should also accept his view on Purgatory because ES for HIm is the source or support for Purgatory. So, do you also believe in Purgatory?
You claim you have studied Church history and you continually ask these uninformed questions. Two proofs, if not of scripture, it could not be a false teaching of scripture. Secondly, history cornfirms it. Name a false teaching that is not based on scripture? Yours, OSAS/ES is based on scripture. Non-Trinitarianism is based on Scripture. Arianism is based on scripture, Nestorianism is based on scripture. Original Sin is based on scripture, Universalism is based on scripture. Satisfaction theory of Atonement is based on Scripture. Monotheletism is based on scripture, Montanism is based on scripture.
For someone who claims to know both scripture and history, you exhibit just the opposite.
I could list them all for you but I will leave you to do much more and better study of Church history.
Well Cassian, you do go on. Do you realize that in all the above that you posted, there is not one verse of scripture? It all goes thud on the ground, as our opinions are unimportant; religious tradition is unimportant, what is important is "Thus saith the Lord," It is written.
I proved what I set out to prove, namely that the POV of eternal security existed in the early Church after the NT was over.
But despite that, you want to still move Eternal Security to the time of Calvin. I have utterly disproven that contention. Bringing in "as faith" and "actual belief system by a church" is unprovable and irrelevant. And your use of "a church" is incorrect, as there is but one Church -- denominations are not churches. My contention is that persons have trusted the Lord Jesus as Savior (not mere chance-giver) since the time He made His first disciples. This is not some "system." This is not some "faith." This is some sinner trusting the Savior to make them over and give them the gift of eternal life, so that they never perish. Eternal security is the fact that those who trust Christ as Savior have eternal life, do not perish, and shall live forever in bliss in fellowship with the Lord Jesus. There is no losing of salvation in the Bible. And the belief in Eternal Security is found in both in the NT and in the early Church.
To me it doesn't matter a fig what thought the old boys in long robes in ecclesiastical positions, particularly with the blessing of the Roman government, East or West. I do not consider them my "fathers" in any sense. I count myself a part of the Body of Christ, the Church, which rarely if ever in history is appreciated by government, as is often persecuted by the same.
So you fail to move Eternal Security to the 1500's. It was from the getgo. And if you don't appreciate those believers, and want to associate their POV with heresies, that is you saying it, which proves nothing.
But I warn you that to downgrade the Savior to a chance-giver and deny that He is the Savior Who saves His people from their sins is a serious heresy. Anyone who thinks that way needs to repent and actually trust Christ as Savior.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
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2
Re: ES Is Attested to By Bible & Ancient "Church Fathers"
how did you get two boxes in one quote? tht is very interesting
anyway
good post
just saying once saved always saved and posting scriptures that are taken out of context is not really prooving anything.
For someone who claims to know both scripture and history, you exhibit just the opposite.
I could list them all for you but I will leave you to do much more and better study of Church history.
I could list them all for you but I will leave you to do much more and better study of Church history.
anyway
good post
just saying once saved always saved and posting scriptures that are taken out of context is not really prooving anything.