God didn't think it robbery to be equal to Himself

[Shubee]

You are certainly trying to make God a liar, that Mr. Miller might be seen as honest.

Even a child can count four kingdoms in Daniel 2, four kingdoms in Daniel 7 but only two kingdoms in Daniel 8. Ultimately, yes, William Miller is vindicated by the obvious. And not only is William Miller vindicated by the wisdom of children, Jesus Christ also taught Daniel's two scenario scheme.

 

[Shubee]

you are proposing that God has a series of possible times to end the world, but just never chose one.
He kept telling people His intention, but never followed through.

The Apostle Peter legitimized the question, "Why the delay to this ‘coming’ he promised?" in 2 Peter 3. I propose that God's intentions and the prophecies of prophets were always honorable.

 

[VCO]

That's a laugh. You didn't answer my question.

Yes I did, but you have been blinded to the Truth.

2 Corinthians 3:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

And how do you get to be IN CHRIST? You must repent of your sin and receive HIM for who He really is, GOD in the flesh we know as Jesus Christ, receiving Him as LORD, which means Master, meaning it with your whole being.

 

[VCO]

The Apostle Peter legitimized the question, "Why the delay to this ‘coming’ he promised?" in 2 Peter 3. I propose that God's intentions and the prophecies of prophets were always honorable.

2 Peter 3:3-4 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”

 

[Shubee]

You are certainly trying to make God a liar, that Mr. Miller might be seen as honest.

I think it is best that I activate the ignore button and move on. There is no edification that you will accept.
Casting pearls and all that.

Perhaps the severe beating that you received on page 3 of God is Exposing The Three Greatest Evils That Are Shaping Endtime Events had something to do with your disappointment.

 

[VCO]

Yes I did, but you have been blinded to the Truth.

2 Corinthians 3:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

And how do you get to be IN CHRIST? You must repent of your sin and receive HIM for who He really is, GOD in the flesh we know as Jesus Christ, receiving Him as LORD, which means Master, meaning it with your whole being.

Shubee,

I forgot to add, that is what is called "born again".

John 3:5-7 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

 

[Shubee]

I thought that my challenge was clear enough. Use the historical-grammatical method of interpretation to persuade me that Daniel was directed to understand something about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence for the 4th world kingdom.

I believe that it was nearly confessed that Daniel didn't see anything about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence for the 4th world kingdom. So this admission supports the Millerite belief that the prophecies of Daniel contain conditional details.

The next challenge is truly fundamental for arriving at the true meaning of Daniel's prophecies. Why does Daniel 2 & 7 present the world coming to an end at the end of the divided fourth world kingdom but Daniel 11-12 presents the world coming to end at the later end of the divided Greek kingdom? Why does the vision of Daniel 8 end so abruptly?

So the conclusion here is even more inescapable. The book of Daniel presents multiple scenarios.

 

[fredjames]

Are you speaking to me? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Please, your own posted title would have been best with a question mark at the end.

Also not all Trinity believers are Trinitarian translation believers and agree on such twisted doctrine translation of theirs. As for it is written and taught by the HOLY SPIRIT clearly we see in Philippians 2;6, that even a child of GOD may understand about the truth of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, as how the FATHER has shown HIS SON to them through divine knowledge, .

These respond are directed in love, towards your confession in writings and also to all who are deceived by this twisted doctrine and not at all to harm anyone of CHRIST.

May the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you with HIS kindness and peace.

 

[VCO]

I believe that it was nearly confessed that Daniel didn't see anything about some kind of abeyance and then a resurgence for the 4th world kingdom. So this admission supports the Millerite belief that the prophecies of Daniel contain conditional details.



So the conclusion here is even more inescapable. The book of Daniel presents multiple scenarios.

Wrong, one scenario, GOD's plan! And you need to born again before you will even begin to understand that.


Isaiah 46:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

 

[Shubee]

Wrong, one scenario,

So you deny what children understand. So please tell me again why there are only two kingdoms listed in Daniel 8.

 

[Ukorin]

So you deny what children understand. So please tell me again why there are only two kingdoms listed in Daniel 8.

what your hermeneutic is missing is the telescopic principle.

God gave these visions, but did not give them for only one purpose.

Each vision gives 3 things.
a view of the immediate future, dealing with the Exile period.
a view of the 1st coming of Christ, and surrounding events
a view of Christ's 2nd coming, and surrounding events.

they intertwine at times, but not because God changed His mind, that is not in the character that He has shared as Himself with us, through His Word.

It is the telescopic principle, which means that the events are seen as mountain tops in the distance.
To the viewer they seem as connected, but in reality there are miles and miles between them.

 

[Ukorin]

You see the two kingdoms, an event that is fulfilled in history already,
but you also see this man, who is Alexander the Great, and Antiochus Epiphanes, and the 'man of sin'.

This is not the only passage with multiple meanings. Look at Ezekiel 28. Is this speaking of just one person, or both the physical king of Tyre, and also Satan?

Rather than being a list of multiple possible endings, these are prophecies with multiple interwoven meanings and fulfillments.
(I do love "choose your own adventure" books myself, but they don't work well as a means of Scripture interpretation)


Continue in your study.
Good fruit will come of it, as long it does not become an obsession, and distract you from reading the rest of Scripture.

 

[Shubee]

what your hermeneutic is missing is the telescopic principle.

God gave these visions, but did not give them for only one purpose.

Each vision gives 3 things.
a view of the immediate future, dealing with the Exile period.
a view of the 1st coming of Christ, and surrounding events
a view of Christ's 2nd coming, and surrounding events.

they intertwine at times, but not because God changed His mind, that is not in the character that He has shared as Himself with us, through His Word.

It is the telescopic principle, which means that the events are seen as mountain tops in the distance.
To the viewer they seem as connected, but in reality there are miles and miles between them.

Thanks for your courage in repudiating the historical-grammatical method of interpretation. However, as I have already pointed out, the book of Daniel itself endorses the belief that Daniel's dreams and visions were not distortions but actual explanations.

DANIEL 2
“There is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in the days to come. Your dream and the vision that passed through your mind as you lay on your bed are these: As you were lying there, O king, your mind turned to things to come, and the revealer of mysteries showed you what is going to happen. As for me, this mystery has been revealed to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other living men, but so that you, O king, may know the interpretation and that you may understand what went through your mind” (2:28-30 NIV).

DANIEL 8
“And it came about when I, Daniel, had seen the vision, that I sought to understand it; and behold, standing before me was one who looked like a man. And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, ‘Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision’ ” (8:16). ... “Son of man, understand that...” (8:17). “And he said, ‘Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur...’ (8:19).

DANIEL 9
“While I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. And he gave me instruction and talked with me, and said, ‘O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision’ ” (9:21-23).

DANIEL 10
“In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia, a revelation was given to Daniel (who was called Belteshazzer). Its message was true and it concerned a great war. The understanding of the message came to him in vision” (10:1 NIV).

“Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future” (10:14).

Here is the proof:

Since the angel Gabriel was given a divine command to make Daniel understand the vision (8:16), we expect the angel-interpreter to have faithfully executed that command. It follows immediately therefore that the vision was explained to Daniel so that he might understand it. Hence, the very words and phrases employed were comprehensible terms meaningfully arranged and are to be accepted as Daniel understood them. Thus, we are to seek an understanding of the prophecy from Daniel’s perspective in history and not from a stand-point in the twenty-first century. We are to assume no more than Daniel could have known.

 

[Shubee]

I do love "choose your own adventure" books myself,

And that is evident in your love of the telescopic principle, where you are free to manufacture whatever prophecy adventure you like. Thank you very much. I will stick with the scholarly historical-grammatical method of interpretation instead.

 

[Shubee]

Isaiah 46:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

That was an altogether different scenario. And I'm certain that God always does whatever He has planned to do. However, in every announced scenario, this rule still applies:

Jeremiah 18:7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, [SUP]8 [/SUP]and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

 

[Shubee]

Continue in your study.
Good fruit will come of it, as long it does not become an obsession, and distract you from reading the rest of Scripture.

This diversion into prophecy is the distraction. That was the result of my adversaries having no answer to my opening post, except for their citations of imaginary Greek dictionaries where words are defined to validate their Trinitarian presuppositions.

 

[VCO]

So you deny what children understand. So please tell me again why there are only two kingdoms listed in Daniel 8.

Because Americans did not write the Book of Daniel! What do I mean by that?

We Americans grew up hearing stories told beginning to end with all the details in place. That is not how people from the mid-east tell a story. They tell it like a good newspaper reporter would tell it. They give you an outline or quick overview of the entire story first, to catch the reader's attention. Daniel Chapter 2 is that overview. Then they go back and fill in some of the details of specific events, AND go back again and fill in more details of other events, AND continue to go back as many times as needed to fill in the rest of the details. The details do not have to be in chronological order, because the Overview outlines the chronological order. The Book of Revelation is written in that exact same writing style and the Overview is Chapter 1 with the apex being verse 19.

Therefore Daniel Chapter 8 is simply filling some of the specific missing details of the Overview in Daniel Chapter 2, which was considered the proper way to tell a story in Daniel's day. NO WAY is it presented a different scenario.

 

[VCO]

That was an altogether different scenario. And I'm certain that God always does whatever He has planned to do. However, in every announced scenario, this rule still applies:

Jeremiah 18:7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, [SUP]8 [/SUP]and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

YES that is always part of his plan, because He is also merciful. Therefore it is not a different scenario, but PART OF HIS PLAN. So tell me, why have you not repented?

 

[Shubee]

Daniel Chapter 8 is simply filling some of the specific missing details of the Overview in Daniel Chapter 2, which was considered the proper way to tell a story in Daniel's day. NO WAY is it presented a different scenario.

I agree that Daniel 8 is not an incompatible scenario with Daniel 2 & 7. Still, there are deep reasons why Daniel 8 only focused on a specific span of time for which you seem to have no understanding. It is Daniel 11-12 that presents the alternate ending, which Millerites understand.

Indisputably, the alternate endings are mutually exclusive and parallel:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people, and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24).

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are with babes in those days! But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short." (Mt 24:15-22).

 

[VCO]

I agree that Daniel 8 is not an incompatible scenario with Daniel 2 & 7. Still, there are deep reasons why Daniel 8 only focused on a specific span of time for which you seem to have no understanding. It is Daniel 11-12 that presents the alternate ending, which Millerites understand.

Indisputably, the alternate endings are mutually exclusive and parallel:

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled. Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people, and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled" (Luke 21:20-24).

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things that are in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are with babes in those days! But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short." (Mt 24:15-22).

NO, Daniel 11-12 is NOT an alternative ending, that is only yet another false interpretation from your proven false prophet. There is really NO POINT, in trying to explain any more to you, until you repent, willingly surrendering control of your life to Jesus Christ as God in the flesh, submitting to His Lordship, thus allowing the Holy Spirit to immerse you into the spiritual body of Christ. Because like I pointed out to you before, until then you are blinded to the Truth, and will remain so. You Must Be Born Again.



2 Corinthians 3:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

And how do you get to be IN CHRIST? You must repent of your sin and receive HIM for who He really is, GOD in the flesh we know as Jesus Christ, receiving Him as LORD, which means Master, meaning it with your whole being.