ONCE saved always saved!.

[johnluke]

Originally posted by SeaBass
Why do you make salvation CONDITIONAL upon following God unto death when eternal security says salvation is UNCONDITIONAL and following God is not even necessary?

You may very well slide into heaven unconditionally, it is true. But after you have arrived, other conditions start to apply. For instance: in Rev. 3:21 Jesus is telling Paul, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

So now upon condition of overcoming the world, you will or will not be granted a seat with Jesus in his throne.

If you do not overcome the world you may, in fact find yourself separated from Jesus even though you are in heaven.

So I would not give so much weight to OSAS, even though it is true. Give much greater weight to following God and doing as he has taught us and being like him.

You will find your personal Christian walk here on earth to be much more fulfilling and you will find your eternal life to be much more appealing because you will be close to the Savior. OR your eternal life can be rather lack luster due to the condition of disobedience here on earth. You make the choice.

 

[SeaBass]

True about one cannot do his own righteous and I agree with working GODs righteousness if you are talking about the inward man to the outward man.

your spirit has been sealed and does not participate in that sin,but out of respect for GOD you should say I'm sorry for letting the weakness of my flesh influence me,and then keeping walking(sanctification).

Romans 12:1-2

king james version(kjv)

[SUP]1.)[/SUP] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[SUP]

2.)[/SUP]And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Psa 119:172 says all God's commandments are righteousness. So when one obeys God's commands then he is obeying or working God's righteousness. So when the sinner is told to believe, repent confess and be baptized by God, then those that do these things are working. doing God's righteousness. And obeying what God commands/doing God's righteousness is not "filthy rags" as some falsely claim.

Jesus said repent or perish, Lk 13:3,5 so any sin a Christian will not repent that will cause loss of salvation for no one will carry a single sin through the 'pearly gates' with them.

 

[SeaBass]

Re: Salvation 102 Many Questions Are Being Raised on Salvation

Well that's what you say. Is it not remarkable how you just go on saying things & proving nothing?

The word says a lot in Rom 1-3, including:

"There is none that does good, no not one.

Note also: "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

"But the wicked are like the troubled sea; for it cannot rest, and its waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked."

"All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way ."

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked"

"the scripture has concluded all under sin."

O generation of vipers, who has warned you from the wrath to come?

Gen 4:7 says nothing different.

Because man is so wicked, man requires a Savior; man's filthy rag works only condemn him. Thus salvation may not be by works.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

In Gen 4:7 God shows us Cain was not totally depraved.

Acts 10:35 one must work righteousness to be accepted with God and that work is not filthy rags to God. Doing/obeying what God said is a joy, not filthy rags 3 Jn 1:4.

 

[SeaBass]

In other words, You excuse your habitual sin, All you have to do is say I am sorry. I did not mean it. Talk about an easy way to heaven

AGAIN, I said I would be lost for any sin I commit that I will not repent of. How is this excusing my sin?

No. this thread is about the false precept that my minor sins are not as bad as adultry So he will go to hell, I will not.

David was an adulterer, AFTER God says he was a man after his own heart, AFTER God chose him to be king. AFTER God made a covenant with him.

You see, God made all thes things about david (including saving him and making him his child) KNOWING david would commit adultry and murder.

I know I know. David repented. That is not the point, True children of God do repent. Not to be resaved because they understand they have hurt their father.

But you can not understand this. God is not your father, Your father is not God. He is you.

According to ES there really are no sins for a Christian can do as he pleases and cannot be lost.

Sin is why one is lost. So if a Christian cannot be lost he must be 1) perfectly sinless or 2) his lying, stealing, lusting etc must not really be sins

 

[SeaBass]

No,

It says someone will never stop following God and deny him.

If they did, they wre not true children (1 John 2)

The "never really saved to begin with" does not work.

1 Tim 4:1 how can one depart from the faith if he NEVER had the faith?

1 Tim 5:12 how can one cast off a faith he never had?

 

[Billyd]

PS, what is your opinion about those that think a Christian can go rape, murder that widow and does not effect salvation one whit?

Do you know one person who has been saved that has committed one of those sins since being saved? I think not.

If you are asking if a person who has committed one of those sins in the past can be saved. My answer is yes.

 

[SeaBass]

Go ahead and quit, see what happens. If you are truly saved you'll be walking against your new nature and it will make you a miserable person. If you can quit, and it's easy for you, then you never had Christ to being with....

So go ahead and quit, see how far you can go before the Lord's discipline and convictions rail against your heart.

BTW, the believer needs those adverse circumstances in their life, it separates the true and faithful from the ones who give only lip service.

I choose not to quit, others have.

Again, see my last post about the "never saved to begin with" excuse.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The "never really saved to begin with" does not work.

1 Tim 4:1 how can one depart from the faith if he NEVER had the faith?

1 Tim 5:12 how can one cast off a faith he never had?

yep, it does work.

John taught it (they never were of us (concerning people who at one time believed, and now reject christ.

peter taught it about people who loved their sin, whose judgment was never idle (they were never saved) He also said, as a dog he returns to his vomit, proving they were never born again (made a new creature)

Jude taught that their destruction was preordained before the foundation of the world.

James said their faith was dead (they never had saving faith)

John said that one born of God can not sin, because God is in him.

You use a few passages taken out of context. and you think you have a doctrine, try reading the whole of the word of God

 

[SeaBass]

There you go again throwing out accusations, stating that those who believe in OSAS don't have works. True Christians do good works as a result of their salvation, not to gain or keep salvation. It's a by product. We work from the position we have in Christ, not for it. The book of James tells us we can know who may be a true follower by their works. Those who have no works have a dead faith (James 2:18-19). The bible clearly says we are saved unto good works (Eph 2:10).

Accusations?????

I would invite you to visit the link below to a thread I started a few months ago entitled "salvation not possible without works" and read the posts made by those who claim NO WORKS are necessary to become saved or remain saved.

Link:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/87593-salvation-not-possible-without-works.html

Now if any start backtracking and say they do works then I will accuse them of trying to earn their salvation as they do me. In this thread I posted many times Eph 2:10 that God preordained Christian to walk in good works.


So can one be saved without EVER doing works? Can one become a Christian and maintain salvation WITHOUT EVER DOING GOOD WORKS??????
(Careful how you answer for some of your "allies" in this thread may turn on you)



And I had to started this thread to prove works do not earn grace/salvation:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/87593-salvation-not-possible-without-works.html

 

[eternally-gratefull]

AGAIN, I said I would be lost for any sin I commit that I will not repent of. How is this excusing my sin?
According to ES there really are no sins for a Christian can do as he pleases and cannot be lost.

Sin is why one is lost. So if a Christian cannot be lost he must be 1) perfectly sinless or 2) his lying, stealing, lusting etc must not really be sins

well you believe the same thing.

There is only one difference between us.

God saved me KNOWING all the sins I would make

You believe you just have to say your sorry, and you can sin all you want.

Notice the word YOU in yours. And NO ME in mine..

thats pure legalism through and through

 

[SeaBass]

You may very well slide into heaven unconditionally, it is true. But after you have arrived, other conditions start to apply. For instance: in Rev. 3:21 Jesus is telling Paul, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

So now upon condition of overcoming the world, you will or will not be granted a seat with Jesus in his throne.

If you do not overcome the world you may, in fact find yourself separated from Jesus even though you are in heaven.

So I would not give so much weight to OSAS, even though it is true. Give much greater weight to following God and doing as he has taught us and being like him.

You will find your personal Christian walk here on earth to be much more fulfilling and you will find your eternal life to be much more appealing because you will be close to the Savior. OR your eternal life can be rather lack luster due to the condition of disobedience here on earth. You make the choice.

No one will get to heaven UNconditionally. Who will get into heaven WITHOUT meeting the condition of having faith? Without meeting the condition of repenting, Lk 13:3,5 confessing, Mt 10:32,33? Being baptized, Mk 16:16? None


Overcoming, as you mention is a condition that must be met.

Rev 2:26 'And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Who will be saved that did not overcome and keep Christ works? None. So OSAS cannot be true in any sense.

 

[SeaBass]

Do you know one person who has been saved that has committed one of those sins since being saved? I think not.

If you are asking if a person who has committed one of those sins in the past can be saved. My answer is yes.

Can a Christian rape and murder, not repent of those sins and still be saved??????


I posted the following earlier in this thread:


The late Sam Morris, a Baptist preacher in Stamford, TX, in his tract "Do a Christian's Sins Damn His Soul" writes:

“We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the or-dinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may per-form will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger... The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... The way I live has nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of my soul"

Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY in "The Weekly Worker", March 12, 1959 says:

"If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it."

More:

Hoyt Chastain was a Missionary Baptist preacher who defended, in public debate on a number of occasions, the propostion that a child of God cannot fall from grace. In one of these encounters Chastain affirmed that he could abandon his wife and children, move in with a sixteen-year-old girl, and the Lord would take the situation and “work it out for his good.” Incredible! Another cleric adopted a similar view. J.L. Pettit, a fifty-four-year-old Baptist preacher, seduced a fourteen-year-old girl. Pettit subsequently was arrested and brought to trial. The girl swore on the witness stand that the minister told her their sexual activity was merely a “matter of the flesh,” and it would not “bother the soul.”

Both of these cases (Chastain and Pettit) were discussed in the Grider-Sherrill Debate, conducted in Somerset, Kentucky in May of 1955 (which was subsequently published). W.E. Sherrill, a Baptist preacher of Benton, Arkansas, was arguing the case that the Christian cannot apostatize so as to be lost finally in hell. A.C. Grider introduced the Sam Morris testimony, and also cited the material regarding Chastain and Pettit. He pressed Sherrill as to whether or not these affirmations were consistent with Baptist doctrine. Sherrill would never repudiate the statements. He continued to insist that no matter what a Christian does, he cannot be lost."

https://www.christiancourier.com/art...-baptist-rules
W. Jackson

 

[SeaBass]

yep, it does work.

John taught it (they never were of us (concerning people who at one time believed, and now reject christ.

peter taught it about people who loved their sin, whose judgment was never idle (they were never saved) He also said, as a dog he returns to his vomit, proving they were never born again (made a new creature)

Jude taught that their destruction was preordained before the foundation of the world.

James said their faith was dead (they never had saving faith)

John said that one born of God can not sin, because God is in him.

You use a few passages taken out of context. and you think you have a doctrine, try reading the whole of the word of God

You did not explain how one can depart from the faith if he NEVER had the faith to depart from. How can one cast of a faith he supposedly never had?

How could Judas fall by transgression (Acts 1:25) if he were always fallen? From what does an already fallen person fall from?

 

[SeaBass]

well you believe the same thing.

There is only one difference between us.

God saved me KNOWING all the sins I would make

You believe you just have to say your sorry, and you can sin all you want.

Notice the word YOU in yours. And NO ME in mine..

thats pure legalism through and through

No, I believe, and the bible teaches, I will be lost if I do not CONDITIONALLY repent of my sins

ES say salvation is UNconditional and repentance is not necessary.

Big night and day difference.

 

[SolidGround]

No one will get to heaven UNconditionally. Who will get into heaven WITHOUT meeting the condition of having faith? Without meeting the condition of repenting, Lk 13:3,5 confessing, Mt 10:32,33? Being baptized, Mk 16:16? None


Overcoming, as you mention is a condition that must be met.

Rev 2:26 'And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Who will be saved that did not overcome and keep Christ works? None. So OSAS cannot be true in any sense.

i think that verse is adding a blessing on top of salvation.
the ruling of nations is a separate thing than salvation.

There are crowns and rewards, and it seems even loss of rewards, when the time comes that we meet our Lord.

You certainly have a point, and your cause is noble. We need to be the Church that we're called out to be.
We must be pursuing holiness, and showing the lost the love that God has shown us. If we are not doing these, then can we really claim to be led by His Holy Spirit?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I believe, and the bible teaches, I will be lost if I do not CONDITIONALLY repent of my sins

ES say salvation is UNconditional and repentance is not necessary.

Big night and day difference.

your right.

You excuse your sin by saying your sorry. And think God is just going to say, Its ok. Come back into my family.

I do not excuse my sin, But instead thank God daily sometimes hourly for saving such a wretched souls as me.

the more I grow. The more I see how sinfull I really was (and am) and acknowledge that so I never stop growing, thinking I have somehow made it.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I have seen some who mistakenly think John is saying that it is impossible for the Christian to sin, but that contradicts what John says in 1 Jn 1:6-10.

When John says cannot sin does not mean impossible to sin. The law may say you cannot drive over 55mph but that does not mean it is impossible for you to drive over 55mph. The present tense verbs indicates John is sayng one who has become a Christian cannot continue to live in sin, live a sinful lifestyle. If one who lives in adultery (or whatever sin) becomes a Christian, then he cannot continue to live in that adultery (or whatever sin) he must get out of it.

Paul's words to the Corinthians:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Paul says "such WERE some of you" Paul is not saying those Corinthians were perfectly sinless but they had quit continuing living in various sins. Same it true to what Paul said the Ephesians in Eph 2 where the Ephesians before becoming Christians "walked according to the course of this world, had their conversation of life in the flesh of this world" but they did not continue that sinful walk/course having become Christians. Where they perfectly sinless? No, but as long as they walk in the light Christ blood cleanses away all sins.

1 Jn 5:18,19 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Similar idea as sinneth not is present tense one cannot become a Christian and continue to live as a sinner, live a sinful lifestyle. Note that one born of God KEEPETH HIMSELF. What does this mean? The Christian has the responsibility to keep himself from living a lifestyle in sin (v21 admonished to keep himself from idols) less he become lost. Jude commands the Christian to keep himself in the love of God Jude 1:21.

Thank you. Now can you answer this: I would also like to know when we are born of someone - How do we become "unborn"? Just curious - Thanks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You did not explain how one can depart from the faith if he NEVER had the faith to depart from. How can one cast of a faith he supposedly never had?

How could Judas fall by transgression (Acts 1:25) if he were always fallen? From what does an already fallen person fall from?

we all have fallen by transgressions.

One we hear the gospel. He have the faith which can save (gods faith given to us) what we do with that faith is up to us.

Some reject outright.
Some believe for awhile. but having never truly having faith, fall away.

You did not explain all the things I said, or explain how I misiterpreted all the passages I used to prove you wrong.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Psa 119:172 says all God's commandments are righteousness. So when one obeys God's commands then he is obeying or working God's righteousness. So when the sinner is told to believe, repent confess and be baptized by God, then those that do these things are working. doing God's righteousness. And obeying what God commands/doing God's righteousness is not "filthy rags" as some falsely claim.

Jesus said repent or perish, Lk 13:3,5 so any sin a Christian will not repent that will cause loss of salvation for no one will carry a single sin through the 'pearly gates' with them.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is the boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. We have the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ . . in the flesh? NO It is impossible to please God in the flesh - but in that new man born within us - we have the righteousness of God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt. [IOW, if we work for our righteousness the reward of righteousness becomes a debt owed us and it is not of grace] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all. . . .who against hope believed in hope that hemight become the father of many nations according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. . . . . He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

imputed: to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over; to take into account, to make an account of; metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute; a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight; to number among, reckon with; to reckon or account; to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate; by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer; to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on; to suppose, deem, judge; to determine, purpose, decide

 

[Bookends]

Accusations?????

I would invite you to visit the link below to a thread I started a few months ago entitled "salvation not possible without works" and read the posts made by those who claim NO WORKS are necessary to become saved or remain saved.

Link:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/87593-salvation-not-possible-without-works.html

Now if any start backtracking and say they do works then I will accuse them of trying to earn their salvation as they do me. In this thread I posted many times Eph 2:10 that God preordained Christian to walk in good works.


So can one be saved without EVER doing works? Can one become a Christian and maintain salvation WITHOUT EVER DOING GOOD WORKS??????
(Careful how you answer for some of your "allies" in this thread may turn on you)



And I had to started this thread to prove works do not earn grace/salvation:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/87593-salvation-not-possible-without-works.html

Works aren't necessary for salvation, in other words, works don't save us. AGain, works are a by product of Faith.