ONCE saved always saved!.

[Bookends]

The "never really saved to begin with" does not work.

1 Tim 4:1 how can one depart from the faith if he NEVER had the faith?

1 Tim 5:12 how can one cast off a faith he never had?

I think John disagrees with you.

2 John
4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father

I take this to mean that some people of this church (yes, I'm assuming John is talking to a church) were also not walking in the truth, but yet they belonged to this church or family.

 

[Dan58]

That's Acts 5, I'm not sure this is a good proof text against OSAS. For 1, we don't know if Ananias or Sapphira were saved and 2, we are not sure if their souls went to hell. They could have lost their earthly life in punishment for lying to the HS. Surely Moses earthly life was taken early for his disobedience and he couldn't enter the promise land. This also could have been a lesson to show the church to revere God, and not take Him casually.

Your not going to make the notion that Moses was lost, are you?

Ananias or Sapphira lied against (denied) the Holy Spirit, that's the unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). I don't judge anyone, but sin=death, so the unforgivable sin is what caused their deaths. Moses didn't commit such a sin, I'm sure he repented for his disobedience and was saved.

Belief is not thinking you believe, want to believe, saying you believe, doubt that you believe, talking about believing, maybe believe, etc. as I said, when you truly believe in Jesus, you are saved, and you will know it. No one who believes in Eternal Security, believes that he has a license to sin. That is the testimony of a person who one who is as lost as the rock that I threw in the river when I was a child. I no longer have any desire to sin, but God knows I will. It is for that reason he sent me a Savior.

There is one sin that is unforgivable. It is the sin of unbelief. If you are saved, you can not have that sin.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin (Matthew 12:31). Unbelief is a sin, but its forgivable once you believe. I also respectfully disagree; Believing is saying you believe, thinking you believe, and wanting to believe. I personally know people who believe, but they still willfully sin and don't even try to follow the example of Jesus. They aren't lost, they know the Truth and believe it. They're just disobedient because they believe Jesus covered their sins. They don't feel they need to be faithful to what they believe, because they've been told OSAS. They stood up in a church at an alter call and made their choice for Christ, the preacher told them they were saved and they never went back. And why should they? The preacher green-lighted them right into eternity.

 

[Bookends]

Ananias or Sapphira lied against (denied) the Holy Spirit, that's the unforgivable sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit). I don't judge anyone, but sin=death, so the unforgivable sin is what caused their deaths. Moses didn't commit such a sin, I'm sure he repented for his disobedience and was saved.



Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin (Matthew 12:31). Unbelief is a sin, but its forgivable once you believe. I also respectfully disagree; Believing is saying you believe, thinking you believe, and wanting to believe. I personally know people who believe, but they still willfully sin and don't even try to follow the example of Jesus. They aren't lost, they know the Truth and believe it. They're just disobedient because they believe Jesus covered their sins. They don't feel they need to be faithful to what they believe, because they've been told OSAS. They stood up in a church at an alter call and made their choice for Christ, the preacher told them they were saved and they never went back. And why should they? The preacher green-lighted them right into eternity.

You are assuming again, the text does suggest such a thing that they did the unforgivable sin. All they did was lie to the HS, not deny. The text never said they didn't believe nor did believe. The unforgivable sin is denial of the work of the HS and rejection Christ all your life unto death, this far different from that. You can believe whatever, but I'm sticking to the text.

 

[2Thewaters]

I think John disagrees with you.

2 John
4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father

I take this to mean that some people of this church (yes, I'm assuming John is talking to a church) were also not walking in the truth, but yet they belonged to this church or family.

yes I agree
SOME kept the commandments
some did not

 

[2Thewaters]

its weter you continue the walk in the truth and the commandments wether you are going.

As JESUS HIMSELF SAID:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.


very clear

 

[2Thewaters]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


so when the bible says FALL AWAY

t means FALL AWAY and never come back
no sacrifice for them

if you come back then you didnt fall away



fall away is the END RESULT

some WILL DO IT

some wont

most will fall away
some wont.

the road is narrow PAyul kept encouraging them to not fall away but continue...

 

[nowyouseem033]

I believe in once saved always saved!!! Clearly taught in the bible

Its once prayed always saved I have a problem with!!!!

Can you lose your salvation???
This suggests two contradictory statements.

1) That salvation is yours.. (Can you...lose YOUR)
2) and that salvation is conditional based upon YOUR choice for him or against him. Which then puts YOU at the very centre of saving yourself!!! hence following maintaining yourself also.


Salavation is of the lord, so when God saves since God does the saving, the question is reversed to a God centred view and understanding.
Can God lose your salvation? rather than Can I lose my salvation?
to answer this question is simply by answering this question:
Who does the saving???
Whoever does the saving is the very same being that does the maintaining.
Clearly God does the saving so therefore God is the one who finishes that which has been started.
and once your saved, God will never lose you and their no longer remains condemnation for those that are his.
Remember we didn't choose him, he chose us.

However don't think a person is saved because they professed faith because it is possessing faith that determines if one is saved not professing faith. Many professing faith Christians few possessing faith Christians.
Hence once prayed always saved is the statement we should be attacking not once saved always saved.

 

[tourist]

I believe also that one cannot lose their salvation from the Lord once it is obtained from the grace of God. His grace is sufficient to sustain eternal life in His glorious presence. Salvation is neither earned nor can it be taken away. It is not of our own design but on the shed blood of Jesus on the cross for the remission of our sins. I place my trust in His precious blood and I refuse to live in fear because God is with me always.

 

[SeaBass]

i think that verse is adding a blessing on top of salvation.
the ruling of nations is a separate thing than salvation.

There are crowns and rewards, and it seems even loss of rewards, when the time comes that we meet our Lord.

You certainly have a point, and your cause is noble. We need to be the Church that we're called out to be.
We must be pursuing holiness, and showing the lost the love that God has shown us. If we are not doing these, then can we really claim to be led by His Holy Spirit?

The ones that do not overcome or keep Christ's work are lost. 2 Pet 2:20 speaks of those that fall away and fail to overcome. How can one not keep Christ's works, that is be disobedient to Christ and be saved? Heb 5:9 Christ saves those that obey Him.

1 Jn 5:4,5 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[SeaBass]

your right.

You excuse your sin by saying your sorry. And think God is just going to say, Its ok. Come back into my family.
I do not excuse my sin, But instead thank God daily sometimes hourly for saving such a wretched souls as me.

the more I grow. The more I see how sinfull I really was (and am) and acknowledge that so I never stop growing, thinking I have somehow made it.

My repenting is not an excuse, I repent for God has commanded me to repent. Only an advocate of ES would grasp at straws in calling obedience to God an "excuse"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My repenting is not an excuse, I repent for God has commanded me to repent. Only an advocate of ES would grasp at straws in calling obedience to God an "excuse"

no.. we do not use it as an excuse. we admit we have no excuse.

you do.

 

[SeaBass]

Thank you. Now can you answer this: I would also like to know when we are born of someone - How do we become "unborn"? Just curious - Thanks.

When a Christian sins and refuses to repent of that sin, turning from Christ back to the world.

1 Jn 5:8 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

ES says one born of God can live in sin all he cares to and remains saved.

1 Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

One who quits believing born of God?

1 Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

"Doeth" is present tense. Can a Christian quit doing righteousness and start doing unrighteousness and still be born of God/saved?


Does the one that doeth unrighteousness, continues to live in sin, quits believing fit the definition of one who is born of God according to these verses?

 

[SeaBass]

we all have fallen by transgressions.

One we hear the gospel. He have the faith which can save (gods faith given to us) what we do with that faith is up to us.

Some reject outright.
Some believe for awhile. but having never truly having faith, fall away.

You did not explain all the things I said, or explain how I misiterpreted all the passages I used to prove you wrong.

If original sin were true then all are born fallen and therefore cannot fall.

Luke says Judas fell by transgression. Again, if Judas was ALWAYS in transgression. ALWAYS fallen then what can an ALREADY FALLEN man fall from? The logical implication is he must have been in a saved state the by transgression he fell from that saved state.

 

[SeaBass]

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is the boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. We have the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ . . in the flesh? NO It is impossible to please God in the flesh - but in that new man born within us - we have the righteousness of God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt. [IOW, if we work for our righteousness the reward of righteousness becomes a debt owed us and it is not of grace] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all. . . .who against hope believed in hope that hemight become the father of many nations according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. . . . . He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

imputed: to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over; to take into account, to make an account of; metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute; a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight; to number among, reckon with; to reckon or account; to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate; by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer; to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on; to suppose, deem, judge; to determine, purpose, decide

Impute - logizomai

1. 
   [*=left]to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
   1. 
      [*=left]to take into account, to make an account of
      1. 
         [*=left]metaph. to pass to one's account, to impute
         [*=left]a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
      
      [*=left]to number among, reckon with
      [*=left]to reckon or account
   
   [*=left]to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
   [*=left]by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
   1. 
      [*=left]to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
      [*=left]to suppose, deem, judge
      [*=left]to determine, purpose, decide
      
      Impute does not mean an infusion of Christ's perfect righteousness into you. If that were the case then you would be as sinless as Christ, but your are not. The whole idea of Christ's perfect obedience transferred to the sinner is a feeble attempt to take responsibility off the sinner to obey by believing, repenting confessing and being baptized and then live faithfully as a Christian.
      
      
      
      
      
      The Greek Word: Logizomai
      The Greek word logizomai is the Greek word cited in the dictionaries and encyclopedias as the word from which the English word “impute” is translated. The word occurs slightly over forty times in the New Testament and bears the following meanings:
      [*=left]
      1. Think, believe, be of the opinion. The passages in which logizomai bears this meaning are as follows: Rom. 2:3; 3:28; 8:18; 14:14; 2 Cor. 11:5; Phil. 3:13; and 1 Pet. 5:12. None of these passages have any relevance to the doctrine of imputation inasmuch as the word bears a different definition in these contexts.
      [*=left]
      2. Think (about), consider, ponder, let one’s mind dwell on. Again, this definition has no bearing on the subject of imputation but the passages in which logizomai bears this meaning are the following: Lk. 24:1; Jn. 11:50; 1 Cor. 13:11; 2 Cor. 3:5; 10:2, 7, 11; Phil. 4:8; Heb. 11:19.
      [*=left]
      3. Reckon, calculate. If any usage of logizomai is going to support the doctrine of imputation, this usage must be it. Consequently, we must give this usage a more thorough examination than we have given the other two usages. This definition is broken down into two categories in Arndt and Gingrich’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. (I have relied on Arndt and Gingrich throughout this examination of the word logizomai.)
      [*=left]
      a. Count, take into account. Let us rather carefully consider the usages where logizomai bears this meaning:
      (1) 1 Cor. 13:5. “Love… does not take into account a wrong suffered.” Obviously, this verse makes no reference to imputation in the theological sense and, therefore, has no bearing on the study.
      [*=left]
      (2) 2 Cor. 5:19. “Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation” (vs. 18-19). This is one of the verses which some think support the idea of imputation as taught by the Calvinists. However, the trespasses of sinners are not counted against them because Christ became sin for us. There is no mention of imputing the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account in this passage. Sinners become the “righteousness of God.” “God’s righteousness, in brief, is tire quality that is stamped upon us by God himself when in heaven, on his judgment seat, he renders the judicial verdict that acquits us of all sin and guilt …. The instant that verdict is pronounced he is dikaios, `righteous’ ” (R.C.H. Lenski, The Interpretation of St. Paul’s First and Second Epistles to the Corinthians, p. 1054).
      [*=left]
      (3) Rom. 4:8. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” Sin is not taken into account when it is forgiven. Nothing is said about the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the account of the believer.
      [*=left]
      (4) 2 Tim. 4:16. “At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them.” Obviously, this is Paul’s request that God not lay sin to the charge of some who sinned against him and, therefore, has no bearing on the subject of imputed righteousness.
      (5) Rom. 4:4. “Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due.” This is discussing the difference between salvation by works (perfect obedience) and salvation by grace. Commenting on that difference, this passage says nothing about the subject of imputing the perfect obedience of Christ to the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (6) Rom. 4:6. “Just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works: Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.” Salvation comes to man apart from works; it comes through grace. But notice that this grace is reckoned, not on the basis of Christ’s perfect obedience being imputed to the believer’s account, but on the basis of God forgiving man of his sins! This says nothing about imputing Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account!
      [*=left]
      (7) Rom. 4:11. “. . . and he (Abraham) received the sign, of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness which he had while uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be reckoned to him.” Inasmuch as this is talking about Abraham, it can hardly be discussing the imputation of the perfect obedience of Christ to his account. Notice that righteousness is reckoned to him. This righteousness is not the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the life of a Christian but the divine acquittal-forgiveness of sins! The context discusses “those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered” but it says absolutely nothing about imputing Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account!
      [*=left]
      (8) Rom. 4:3. “For what does the Scripture say? `And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” This passage mentions that Abraham’s faith was imputed to him for righteousness but says absolutely nothing about Christ’s perfect obedience being imputed to him.
      [*=left]
      (9) Rom. 4:5. “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” This passage again mentions that faith is reckoned as righteousness but says nothing about the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (10) Rom. 4:9. “Is this blessing upon the circumcised, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say,`Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.” This passage again mentions that faith is reckoned as righteousness but says nothing about the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (11) Rom. 4:22. “Therefore also it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Gal. 3:6. “Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Jas. 2:23. “. . . and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, `And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,’ and he was called the friend of God.” All of these three passages pertain to the one case of Abraham. They all teach that Abraham’s faith was imputed for righteousness; not one of them mentions that Christ’s perfect obedience was imputed to Abraham!
      [*=left]
      (12) Rom. 4:10. “How then was it reckoned? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.” In showing that Abraham was justified by faith and not by works, Paul asked whether Abraham was justified before or after circumcision. Again, this passage offers no support for those who teach that Christ’s perfect obedience is reckoned to the account of the believer.
      [*=left]
      (13) Rom. 4:23-25. “Now not for his sake only was it written, that `it was reckoned to him,’ but for our sake also, to whom it will be reckoned, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, Him who was delivered up because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.” Again, this passage considers the idea of justification by faith; it distinctly mentions that Jesus was delivered up as our sin offering but mentions nothing about His perfect obedience being imputed to the believer’s account. The reference in v. 25 to “raised because of our justification” cannot be twisted to teach the believer’s account.
      [*=left]
      (14) 2 Cor. 12:6. “For if I do wish to boast I shall not be foolish, for I shall be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one may credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me.” This is not even discussing the subject of justification much less the imputing of Christ’s righteousness to the believer’s account.
      b. As a result of a calculation, evaluate, estimate, look upon as, consider. The usages of this definition have no relationship to the subject although here are the passages in which the word logizomai appears: Acts 19:27; Mk. 15:28; Lk. 22:37; Rom. 2:26; 6:11; 8:36; 9:8; 1 Cor. 4:1; 2 Cor. 10:2.
      [*=left]
      [*=left]​
      Conclusion
      Whatever support might be given to the doctrine of the imputation of Christ’s perfect obedience to the believer’s account is going to have to come from some source other than the definition and usage of the word logizomai. There is nothing in the word’s usage which would ever have suggested the idea that Christ’s perfect obedience was credited to the believer’s account so that God saw Christ’s perfect obedience rather than the believer’s sins. In our next article, we shall consider some other arguments used in defense of this Calvinistic doctrine.
      Truth Magazine XXII: 4, pp. 67-69
      January 26, 1978
      
      Imputed Righteousness: Examining the Arguments (1) — Truth Magazine Online

 

[SeaBass]

Works aren't necessary for salvation, in other words, works don't save us. AGain, works are a by product of Faith.

IN Acts 2 and Acts 16 when the question was asked what must I do to be saved, no one was told to do nothing.

Believing, repenting, confessing submitting to baptism are all works without do no one can be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

I think John disagrees with you.

2 John
4 I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father

I take this to mean that some people of this church (yes, I'm assuming John is talking to a church) were also not walking in the truth, but yet they belonged to this church or family.

3 Jn 1:4- I have access to most all the major English versions and none I have contain the word "some".

No one can be saved while not walking in truth. How can one ever become a child of God and not walk in truth?

 

[SeaBass]

no.. we do not use it as an excuse. we admit we have no excuse.

you do.

Again, only those lost in the error of ES can call obeying God an "excuse"

 

[Billyd]

Dan, Our definitions of belief clash a bit, but they don't differ by much. I know many people who have been caught up in the "spirit" in a meeting, do all that you say and thought that they believe, yet they walked out of the church just as lost as they were when they entered. Here's the difference. They believed that He is a savior, they didn't believe in Him as their Savior. If they believed in Him as Savior, their life would have changed.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is replacing him with Satan. How can a person who replaces the Holy Spirit with Satan be saved? To me, only one who is lost, does not truly believe, can commit the sin of Blasphemy, because he has replaced the Holy Spirit with Satan. I think that if you carefully analyze Matthew 12:31, it will support it.

 

[Dan58]

You are assuming again, the text does suggest such a thing that they did the unforgivable sin. All they did was lie to the HS, not deny. The text never said they didn't believe nor did believe. The unforgivable sin is denial of the work of the HS and rejection Christ all your life unto death, this far different from that. You can believe whatever, but I'm sticking to the text.

"And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common" (Acts 4:31-32). Ananias & Sapphira were in the group filled with the Holy Spirit, and they were all moved to give everything. But A&S held back and denied what they were moved to do. Only a believer can blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and it was the Holy Spirit that took their lives. We obviously see it differently, no problem.

I believe in once saved always saved!!! Clearly taught in the bible

Its once prayed always saved I have a problem with!!!!

However don't think a person is saved because they professed faith because it is possessing faith that determines if one is saved not professing faith. Many professing faith Christians few possessing faith Christians.

I somewhat agree.. Faith is the evidence of what you believe. Its what differentiates a person who merely professes belief from a person who possesses faith. It can be the difference between a hypocrite and a true believer. But advocates of OSAS don't mention faith, so their definition excludes works and can even be construed as an endorsement of sin. OSAS is true of a believer who keeps the faith, but I doubt its applicable to those who willfully don't. The Pharisees believed in God, even Satan is a believer, but OSAS does not apply. jmo

 

[Dan58]

Dan, Our definitions of belief clash a bit, but they don't differ by much. I know many people who have been caught up in the "spirit" in a meeting, do all that you say and thought that they believe, yet they walked out of the church just as lost as they were when they entered. Here's the difference. They believed that He is a savior, they didn't believe in Him as their Savior. If they believed in Him as Savior, their life would have changed.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is replacing him with Satan. How can a person who replaces the Holy Spirit with Satan be saved? To me, only one who is lost, does not truly believe, can commit the sin of Blasphemy, because he has replaced the Holy Spirit with Satan. I think that if you carefully analyze Matthew 12:31, it will support it.

The OSAS advocates don't say anything about change, from my understanding, their motto is that if you believe, your automatically saved, no matter what you do. That's my problem with it. I do agree that when a person accepts Christ as their personal Savior and their lives begin to take a new direction, salvation is not withheld. But that entails faith, not just a passive confession of belief.

I disagree with your definition of what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is. You don't need to replace the HS, you just need to go against it and deny it. A nonbeliever cannot blasphemy the Spirit, because they never believed in it in the first place. Only a believer can commit the sin. In other words, if a Christian is delivered-up before the antiChrist in the endtimes, and they deny the Holy Spirit, that's unforgivable. jmo.