Romans 7 man not saved.

[Atwood]

Thread Started on Rom 7; Then OP-guy made a pot shot at OSAS

OP-Guy says OSAS would say this or OSAS would say that.

Those straw-man attacks are nonsense, indicating that the gentleman doesn't understand Eternal Security and OSS = Once Saved, Saved.
Now if someone has reduced Christ to a "chance-giver," and denies that He is the Savior (Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins), the indication that such person needs to repent & trust the Savior as the Savior.

To such a person I ask,
If you ask the Lord Jesus to save you, just what are you asking for?
Don't you want eternal life?
Are you afraid to ask Him for it & trust Him to give it to you?
So if God appears to you tonight & offers you to tell him your wish,
will you ask for a nail on the outside of the Ark to hold on to?
Will you ask Him that at whatever cost, "Don't violate my free will" -- I must have it if I end up in the Lake of Fire."

Will you plead, "Lord don't give me eternal security, don't promise to save me from my sins & get me to Heaven, because if you did that, why I would just go & sin. So whatever you do, don't save me from my sins, because if you did that, why I would sin & miss out on all that self-righteousness that I love so much."
"No, Lord, give me a chance if I grit my teeth & am a good boy, because I just can't stand salvation; just give me a chance & I will go around calling that salvation. So whatever you do, don't really save me."

Now wake up; there is not room in the universe for 2 Saviors; you don't qualify for the job.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[gotime]

Well I believe a Christian can lapse into law keeping in their own strength...sorta like falling from grace as Paul wared the Galatians.

Yes that is true.

 

[gotime]

No you can't, Paul was looking to the law as his salvation, because that is what he was taught from a child. Jesus set him free from the law. But he could not compute that in his mind. So he sought the law and found it to be death in other words he could only sin by faith in the law. Paul returned his faith to the work of the cross and the sin nature was turned off and he rested in in Christ.

Romans 7 is not rest its bondage to the law of sin.

 

[Kerry]

Good try, Look I am glad that you faith is in Christ and lets leave it at that. Still I would ask you to go to the nearest rehab center and preach this lie. They will run you out on a rail. Love ya brother.

 

[Grandpa]

not bad, I would suggest one thing though, saved do not contemplate this question the saved have already contemplated it and gone from works to Faith.

what are your thoughts on this?

The Romans 7 man is One who has not graduated from works to faith.

Romans 8 has come to Faith.

What about Romans 7:23? Doesn't it bother you a little?

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The law of his mind?

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

 

[Kerry]

Romans 7 is not rest its bondage to the law of sin.

Correct an Apostle of Jesus Christ that is bound. Good job.

 

[gotime]

Re: Thread Started on Rom 7; Then OP-guy made a pot shot at OSAS

OP-Guy says OSAS would say this or OSAS would say that.

Those straw-man attacks are nonsense, indicating that the gentleman doesn't understand Eternal Security and OSS = Once Saved, Saved.
Now if someone has reduced Christ to a "chance-giver," and denies that He is the Savior (Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins), the indication that such person needs to repent & trust the Savior as the Savior.

To such a person I ask,
If you ask the Lord Jesus to save you, just what are you asking for?
Don't you want eternal life?
Are you afraid to ask Him for it & trust Him to give it to you?
So if God appears to you tonight & offers you to tell him your wish,
will you ask for a nail on the outside of the Ark to hold on to?
Will you ask Him that at whatever cost, "Don't violate my free will" -- I must have it if I end up in the Lake of Fire."

Will you plead, "Lord don't give me eternal security, don't promise to save me from my sins & get me to Heaven, because if you did that, why I would just go & sin. So whatever you do, don't save me from my sins, because if you did that, why I would sin & miss out on all that self-righteousness that I love so much."
"No, Lord, give me a chance if I grit my teeth & am a good boy, because I just can't stand salvation; just give me a chance & I will go around calling that salvation. So whatever you do, don't really save me."

Now wake up; there is not room in the universe for 2 Saviors; you don't qualify for the job.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

As I said I was quickly replying to a post and that is not the topic of this OP. SO don't pretend to have any Idea what my whole position is. Just drop it mate. You have totally not got my position at all.

Move on. Just advice by the way Im not upset just not going to get into that.

 

[Atwood]

I don't agree with Kerry on everything,
but in this he is very founded in the Word.

The Word shows us that as long as we are in these bodies there will be trials, temptations, failures, pain, and death.
BUT! these will all wash away upon the revealing of our salvation at the 2nd coming of our Lord!

We still live in bodies of death, do we not?
Unless you believe that your body is incorruptible/immortal now that you have been saved?

Solid, I think I basically agree with you; but I am sure that the sinful flesh is not the body, but the Old Man. And the sins of the flesh are not merely physical (jealousy, etc. Gal 5). The Body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. But in the "flesh," sin dwells. Some Greeks thought that body was bad or unimportant, and the soul was good or important. But that is not Christian. It is coincidentally true that when we die (leave the body) we do stop sinning; but that is not the fault of the body.

Once upon a time a man got to the resurrection, where the body was raised and re-united to the spirit. The spirit said to the body, "You see all these years now having got free of you, I have never sinned at all." The body replied, "Oh yeah, I haven't sinned since I got rid of you!"

Our destiny includes a body, a glorified body. Man is normal with a spirit & body united.

 

[gotime]

Good try, Look I am glad that you faith is in Christ and lets leave it at that. Still I would ask you to go to the nearest rehab center and preach this lie. They will run you out on a rail. Love ya brother.

All good Kerry.

By the way I do use this with people on Drugs and depression etc. And I have seen miracles of deliverance.

We had a guy come though who was a debt collector for a Drug boss. He was on 9 drugs every day for the last 30 years.

He went clean in one week cold turkey and has not looked back. that should have killed Him but he lived no hospital. He still can't believe it and goes around now trying to tell others the good news.

I have seen help people who have depression, forgiveness etc. So this is not a once of thing. I have seen gay people become straight by simply showing them Jesus.

 

[Atwood]

What about Romans 7:23? Doesn't it bother you a little?

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

The law of his mind?

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The whole passage clearly presents the Christian as having two forces at war in his being. Rom 7 takes up the side of defeat where the flesh whips the new man; Rom 8 moves on to victory by the Spirit of God.

 

[gotime]

This message has also healed marriages. I have seen two married people who pretty much hate each other and fight all the time end up more in love than when they first got married. All these things based on this message.

 

[gotime]

So don't think this is just some theory of mine. I first found it by study of these passages and then God changed my life. every day is a growth in Jesus. and this truth has worked in many situations from deliverance from demonic possession to depression, marriage issues, homosexuality, drug addictions etc all the way to physical healing.

 

[Grandpa]

Then you run into the same problem.

can both of these be true at once?

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

and,

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

can Paul be captive to the law of sin and death and at the same time be free from the law of sin and death?

We can be free from the law of sin and death right now. By faith in Christ.

Being delivered from the body of this death is a different thing, isn't it?

1 Corinthians 15
[SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Atwood]

Beware the Coming of the Commandment

Romans 7 is not rest its bondage to the law of sin.

Rom 7, key verse:

And I was alive apart from the law once: but
when the commandment came,
sin revived, and
I died;
and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death: for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

 

[SolidGround]

Solid, I think I basically agree with you; but I am sure that the sinful flesh is not the body, but the Old Man. And the sins of the flesh are not merely physical (jealousy, etc. Gal 5). The Body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. But in the "flesh," sin dwells. Some Greeks thought that body was bad or unimportant, and the soul was good or important. But that is not Christian. It is coincidentally true that when we die (leave the body) we do stop sinning; but that is not the fault of the body.

Once upon a time a man got to the resurrection, where the body was raised and re-united to the spirit. The spirit said to the body, "You see all these years now having got free of you, I have never sinned at all." The body replied, "Oh yeah, I haven't sinned since I got rid of you!"

Our destiny includes a body, a glorified body. Man is normal with a spirit & body united.

I may have leaned too far to make my point. Thank you for the correction. I was going a bit Greek.

 

[Atwood]

So don't think this is just some theory of mine.

It is definitely a theory of yours. And it does not fit the passage.

Only a Christian was alive apart from the law once. Only in a Christian is sin dormant and roused to life with consequent carnality.

 

[gotime]

I am not sprouting this off to try prove myself right. this truth is for every person who by Faith accepts it from the word.

I am saddened to see so many Christians in bondage thinking they are free. even in my own church. but that is changing praise God.

My head elder did not believe me either when I first came as the pastor of their church. but since then he has seen what God can do and is experiencing it. The first time he saw it was with a ex biker who had just come out of Jail and we found him on the street wanting to kill himself in the rain.

We took him to our church it was night time and that man told us how he was beaten every day of his life as a child. but that night he was delivered and was able to forgive his baster which he swore he would never do.

The elder has not stopped talking about it, we all felt the Spirit enter the room and empower that man to forgive. The man still can't believe what God did.

There is power in the blood and nothing is impossible for Jesus.

 

[Karraster]

Very thought provoking thread, and enjoyable for the brotherly love demonstrated. It's a journey for sure, and this life needs constant renewing of the mind and growing closer to Messiah, always imitating Him the best way we can understand how to do. I find this thread so far very uplifting. I do think we won't achieve perfection until the Perfect One returns, however, changing from glory to glory comes to mind, as we desire Him more and more.

 

[gotime]

We can be free from the law of sin and death right now. By faith in Christ.

Being delivered from the body of this death is a different thing, isn't it?

1 Corinthians 15
[SUP]54 [/SUP]So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The physical body we have till Jesus comes as you have quoted.

But Paul in Romans 7 is speaking of the bondage of sin, we are freed from that now by faith in Jesus.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

you said "I am free from the bondage of sin - I may still sin but I am not under bondage of sin - therefore I am free from the bondage of sin."

What do you mean you still sin. Do you mean you do things you know are wrong? because If you are free then nothing is asking you do it. so why do it?

you said "Come on gotime - you know you still sin . . . . as we all do."

How does this inform the topic? Do you assume because you still do that everyone must?

As long as I am in this body - I will sin. Do I intentionally sin? NOPE . . . Do I get angry? sometimes Do I say things I shouldn't? sometimes No I don't assume that everyone must but if anyone says they do not sin - they are a liar.
(1 John 1:8)

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

but don't you know:

2Pe_2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations...

and again:

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

You don't have to give into temptation. God can deliver you from it.

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

amen.

I know I don't have to give in to temptation - But in some instances there is no temptation such as saying something with your mouth that is somewhat sarcastic, hurtful or disgusting . . . . being angry. These are 'fleshly', 'human', 'carnal' emotions and sometimes they are hard to control. If we never sin why would we have to ask forgiveness.

You said "O wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from this body of death? - Spiritually we have been delivered but it will not be a literal reality until we are either raised in incorruption or we put on immortality -"

First the only thing getting changed here is our physical bodies not our characters.
Jesus delivered us on the cross, so you can be delivered now by Faith.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

those who sin are slaves as Jesus said:

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

you can't be free and slave at the same time. no wonder people don't want to become Christians they see them struggle with the same sins they do and say whats the point.

Funny how people believe that Jesus can heal a leaper or cripple or even bring back the dead. or even create something from nothing. but then think He can't keep you from sinning.

The point is - I may struggle with sin, and I may sin - but I have Christ in me - I am a child of God now - I have strength within me, in that inner man, to run the race, to fight the fight through Christ. It is a WALK.