Romans 7 man not saved.

[Atwood]

This message has also healed marriages.

Claiming that Rom 7 is not about the Christian (even Paul after he was saved) does not save marriages. And if you try to prove a doctrine by your super-spiritual successes, that is invalid.

What saves from all sin is the Lord Jesus (He shall save His people from their sin), not just exposing them to commandments. It is trusting the Lord Jesus, not law-keeping which is the key.

I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ died in vain.

 

[Kerry]

Man, dang it, kick my feet, I'm starting to like you Atwood.

 

[Atwood]

The physical body we have till Jesus comes as you have quoted.

But Paul in Romans 7 is speaking of the bondage of sin, we are freed from that now by faith in Jesus.

Romans 7 speaks of the disaster to the Christian after the coming of the commandment. He was alive (saved) apart from the law, but then he got into the carnal rut from which the Lord Jesus delivered Him. Paul started out free & not in bondage before the coming of the commandment.
Only the Christian can have the dual ego's of Romans 7. Faith in Christ is the key to victory, but it comes & goes for concrete situations of life, like Peter on the water. Yet the outcome is guaranteed by Christ: He will save His people from their sins.

 

[gotime]

As long as I am in this body - I will sin. Do I intentionally sin? NOPE . . . Do I get angry? sometimes Do I say things I shouldn't? sometimes No I don't assume that everyone must but if anyone says they do not sin - they are a liar.
(1 John 1:8)

I know I don't have to give in to temptation - But in some instances there is no temptation such as saying something with your mouth that is somewhat sarcastic, hurtful or disgusting . . . . being angry. These are 'fleshly', 'human', 'carnal' emotions and sometimes they are hard to control. If we never sin why would we have to ask forgiveness.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The point is - I may struggle with sin, and I may sin - but I have Christ in me - I am a child of God now - I have strength within me, in that inner man, to run the race, to fight the fight through Christ. It is a WALK.

your 1 john quote is out of context. John is saying that unless we know we have sinned we can not come to Jesus in the first place. notice he also says later:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Here is the beauty of the Gospel. we know Romans 7 says sin comes from within. but Jesus tells us where:

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Jesus pinpoints where sin comes from within a man. The "heart". as it is written:

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

but what Does David pray:

Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

can God create in us a clean heart? yes not only that he said he would:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Praise God, a new heart. Is God going to give me a heart that sins like the last one?

 

[Atwood]

Man, dang it, kick my feet, I'm starting to like you Atwood.

Believe me, Kerry, I only wish you the best. If I could wave a Scofield Reference Bible (not a magic wand) over your life, and make everything perfect for you, I would do so.

 

[Kerry]

Romans 7 speaks of the disaster to the Christian after the coming of the commandment. He was alive (saved) apart from the law, but then he got into the carnal rut from which the Lord Jesus delivered Him. Paul started out free & not in bondage before the coming of the commandment.
Only the Christian can have the dual ego's of Romans 7. Faith in Christ is the key to victory, but it comes & goes for concrete situations of life, like Peter on the water. Yet the outcome is guaranteed by Christ: He will save His people from their sins.

Atwood you have pinpointed the war. The war between our flesh and spirit. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

 

[Karraster]

This message has also healed marriages. I have seen two married people who pretty much hate each other and fight all the time end up more in love than when they first got married. All these things based on this message.

I agree. Who better to influence/guide/direct your marriage than the very One who created Marriage!! Not talking about simply believing in the Father and Son, but actually applying those principles (all of the Word) to not only marriage, all relationships.

 

[gotime]

Claiming that Rom 7 is not about the Christian (even Paul after he was saved) does not save marriages. And if you try to prove a doctrine by your super-spiritual successes, that is invalid.

What saves from all sin is the Lord Jesus (He shall save His people from their sin), not just exposing them to commandments. It is trusting the Lord Jesus, not law-keeping which is the key.

I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God Who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ died in vain.

wow is that what it has come to now. A person shares a testimony on what Jesus has done and its considered showing off? I did not say these things to prove a doctrine, The bible does that for me. I said it in answer to a post to testify that Jesus is able to save.

your second and third paragraph are good.

 

[Laodicea]

To me the man in Romans 7 is speaking as a Pharisee. In this chapter he says he delights in the law of God. A Pharisee is someone who followed God and delighted after the law but, had not yet come to Christ. An unconverted worldly person does not delight after the law of God.

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

 

[gotime]

Romans 7 speaks of the disaster to the Christian after the coming of the commandment. He was alive (saved) apart from the law, but then he got into the carnal rut from which the Lord Jesus delivered Him. Paul started out free & not in bondage before the coming of the commandment.
Only the Christian can have the dual ego's of Romans 7. Faith in Christ is the key to victory, but it comes & goes for concrete situations of life, like Peter on the water. Yet the outcome is guaranteed by Christ: He will save His people from their sins.

Not so Paul start out thinking he was OK. the law revealed to him he was not.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

notice it made sin appear not that he had not sin before as it is written:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin was still there and still bringing death but Paul says until the law he did not see it. but once the law came he saw it and was condemned.

 

[Karraster]

Taking thoughts captive was a very abstract idea to me at one time, but once I realized that with the help of the Holy Spirit I can, it has changed a lot for me. Change your thoughts, change your world.

 

[Kerry]

Not so Paul start out thinking he was OK. the law revealed to him he was not.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

notice it made sin appear not that he had not sin before as it is written:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Sin was still there and still bringing death but Paul says until the law he did not see it. but once the law came he saw it and was condemned.

How could sin appear that was not there. This is magic.

 

[Atwood]

your 1 john quote is out of context. John is saying that unless we know we have sinned we can not come to Jesus in the first place. notice he also says later:

I saw nothing out of context. 1 John is largely an exposition of John 15 (abide in Christ), not a focus on how to get saved in the first place.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The only thing born of God is our new natures; so that is how I take this statement: The Christians' new natures do not sin, as Paul says in Rom 7, it was not him sinning (his better self), but sin in the flesh (his evil me) was in operation.

Here is the beauty of the Gospel. we know Romans 7 says sin comes from within. but Jesus tells us where:

Rom 7 locates Sin in the flesh, the Old Man.

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Compare the above to Gal 5 where these things come from the flesh. The Word speaks of the mind of the flesh. That looks equivalent to the heart of the sinner in the gospels. But in speaking of "the man," that does not refer to the Christian. All the unsaved man is, is flesh, Adamic human nature. Thus it would appear to me that your passages above refer to the heart of the flesh.

Praise God, a new heart. Is God going to give me a heart that sins like the last one?

Anyone who wants a new heart is advised to trust the Lord Jesus as Savior, not as "chance-giver."
And he who has reduced the Savior to "chance-giver" is urged to trust the Lord Jesus as Savior.

 

[crossnote]

Romans 7 and 8 are not to be viewed separately.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

There must be a difference between the man in 7 and the man in 8 viz. Calvary's work and the impartation of the Holy Spirit.
Does this mean the Christian is immune to Rom 7? No. He finds himself there when he begins living the 'walk' in his own strength.

This is why I expressed that Rom 7 portrays both besides the fact of scouring over commentaries years ago where one would say it's speaking of an unbeliever and the other says believer all with their solid arguements.

 

[gotime]

How could sin appear that was not there. This is magic.

That is my point The law did not make sin appear it was already there but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul is building on things he has said in chapter 5. when he says the law came and sin revived or I was alive without the law once. He is saying until the law he thought he was ok. He did not see his sin (by the law is the knowledge of sin) thus he was a live.

But once the law came Sin revived, he could see it and was without excuse.

 

[Kerry]

What? the law pointed out sin and gave no remedy.

 

[Atwood]

Sin was still there and still bringing death [sic!] but Paul says until the law he did not see it. but once the law came he saw it and was condemned.

Contrary to your claim, the testimony is that Paul was alive apart from the law at the start of this problem. So this is a problem that Paul the Christian contracted after he was saved.

 

[Kerry]

That is my point The law did not make sin appear it was already there but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Paul is building on things he has said in chapter 5. when he says the law came and sin revived or I was alive without the law once. He is saying until the law he thought he was ok. He did not see his sin (by the law is the knowledge of sin) thus he was a live.

But once the law came Sin revived, he could see it and was without excuse.

I meant when did you think you was okay. The day you handed out water bottles I meant come on. The only day your were okay is the day you accepted Christ and today is the day of Salvation for tomorrow is promised to no man,

 

[Atwood]

He is saying until the law he thought [sic] he was ok.

He does not say, "thought." And you seem to ignore the first part of Romans 7. He says He was alive, not he thought he was alive. And he implies that sin was dead at the same time, but it came to live again at the coming of the commandment. This is only true of a Christian.

 

[gotime]

What? the law pointed out sin and gave no remedy.

No I did not say that. Jesus is the remedy. Those who are in the Romans 7 position need a Jesus those in Romans 8 have Jesus.