Romans 7 man not saved.

[peacefulbeliever]

your 1 john quote is out of context. John is saying that unless we know we have sinned we can not come to Jesus in the first place. notice he also says later:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How was the 1 John quote out of context. It is written to believers . . . being in fellowship - walking in the light, i.e. walking in the Spirit or being out of fellowship - walking in darkness, i.e. in the flesh. I hope you don't see 1 John 3:9 saying that we don't sin in the flesh - He is saying 'for His seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin' - WHERE? in that incorruptible seed that is the new man that which was born again within man. God makes provision if we should sin, i.e. forgiveness but then says we do not and cannot sin? Doesn't make much sense?

Here is the beauty of the Gospel. we know Romans 7 says sin comes from within. but Jesus tells us where:

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Jesus pinpoints where sin comes from within a man. The "heart". as it is written:

Jer_17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

but what Does David pray:

Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

can God create in us a clean heart? yes not only that he said he would:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Praise God, a new heart. Is God going to give me a heart that sins like the last one?

God has given us a new heart that has no desire to sin . . . which is the point in Romans 7:15 - For that which I do I allow not: for what I would [in my new heart], that do I not [because of the flesh]; but what I hate, that do I. . . .

 

[gotime]

I meant when did you think you was okay. The day you handed out water bottles I meant come on. The only day your were okay is the day you accepted Christ and today is the day of Salvation for tomorrow is promised to no man,

Ok I don't think your understanding me at all. I have been pointing to Jesus for salvation the whole time. salvation from the Romans 7 condition.

 

[Atwood]

Not so Paul start out thinking [sic] he was OK. the law revealed to him he was not.

The text does not say that at all, nothing about Paul thinking. He says he was alive apart from the law. Now Paul was raised as a child in the law; he was steeped in the law. He was never alive apart from the Law until He was saved.

 

[Ukorin]

It's testimony time!
I was raised in a Assemblies of God church. I heard the Gospel(at least a version of it) every Sunday.
I accepted my need for Christ at a young age, yet when the teen years came, I was just nearly as selfish, rude, rebellious, and sinful as all the other kids.

I had nearly given up, because it was too hard. I couldn't follow all the rules, and I couldn't think the right thoughts.
My focus was on not sinning, but the more I tried, the worse I got.

At 19, I left my home church, and went to another local church.
I heard the same message. But this time it sank in.
I am free.
I am not me anymore. I am made new.
I don't have to be scared of hell. I don't have to focus on not sinning.
All I have to focus on is Christ, and He'll do the rest!

Well it worked. I quit smoking that day. Haven't gotten drunk since. I am not the selfish rebellious child I once was. I don't go to church cause "I have to" anymore, but because I want to.

I still have struggles, and I still make mistakes,
But I am no longer chained.

 

[gotime]

Ok you will never convince me people that Jesus blood give a superficial salvation.

When a person behind bars says to me I'm free I see a deceived individual.

When a cripple in a wheelchair says praise God I can walk I see a deceived individual.

This is the Gospel it seems you are all trying to sell me.

Oh yes your free from sin but you are still in bondage to sin.

Oh yes we don't sin but we sin.

seriously?

 

[Atwood]

No I did not say that. Jesus is the remedy. Those who are in the Romans 7 position need a Jesus those in Romans 8 have Jesus.

Christians always need the Lord Jesus, both in Rom 7 & 8 they need Him. Whenever Christians are in a carnal state they need to be delivered from carnality. Even in the carnal state Paul denied that he was doing the sin, referring to his better me. An unsaved person can make no such claim.

 

[Kerry]

You are exactly right, the believer has no desire to sin. But when lead by pastors or teachers to place faitrh in what they do. The Holy Spirit cannot and will not honor that and they find themselves bound by sin and don't know what to do. OSAS say's you were never saved. So the person is left in a dilemma. I love God but I can't stop what I'm doing ( Romans 7) what will I do. The church has thrown me out, the church has told my friends not to talk to me. what am I to do.

Get resaved, that's an OSAS no no. but replace your faith in the cross and not what you do. The biggest stumbling block for most Christians is baptism. Because they are taught that once baptized they cannot sin and that is a lie.

 

[gotime]

The text does not say that at all, nothing about Paul thinking. He says he was alive apart from the law. Now Paul was raised as a child in the law; he was steeped in the law. He was never alive apart from the Law until He was saved.

Agreed Paul always had the law so how is it that the law comes on him again? Is Paul saying he decided to go back to law after he had faith? what are you suggesting?

 

[gotime]

Christians always need the Lord Jesus, both in Rom 7 & 8 they need Him. Whenever Christians are in a carnal state they need to be delivered from carnality. Even in the carnal state Paul denied that he was doing the sin, referring to his better me. An unsaved person can make no such claim.

Paul is imply illustrating slavery to sin. romans 8 and 7 can not be true at the same time.

 

[Atwood]

Ok you will never convince me people that Jesus blood give a superficial salvation.

. . .
This is the Gospel it seems you are all trying to sell me.

Oh yes your free from sin but you are still in bondage to sin.

Oh yes we don't sin but we sin.

seriously?

As to the Christian, yes seriously. As Rom 7 indicates Christians are Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde.

When you say, "we," I must confess I have doubt about you being in the Christian "we," for you don't seem to trust Christ as Savior. And now you seem to hint that you don't sin; a claim that surely goes with self-righteous sin.

In many things we all stumble. Now what is a superficial salvation is deeming Christ to be a chance-giver. He promises:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
He is the author & perfecter of our faith.
He Who began a good work in you will complete it.

 

[gotime]

As to the Christian, yes seriously. As Rom 7 indicates Christians are Dr. Jekyl & Mr. Hyde.

When you say, "we," I must confess I have doubt about you being in the Christian "we," for you don't seem to trust Christ as Savior. And now you seem to hint that you don't sin; a claim that surely goes with self-righteous sin.

In many things we all stumble. Now what is a superficial salvation is deeming Christ to be a chance-giver. He promises:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
He is the author & perfecter of our faith.
He Who began a good work in you will complete it.

Well you can have your Jekyl and Hyde Ill take Christ and day of the week.

 

[Ukorin]

Ok you will never convince me people that Jesus blood give a superficial salvation.

When a person behind bars says to me I'm free I see a deceived individual.

When a cripple in a wheelchair says praise God I can walk I see a deceived individual.

This is the Gospel it seems you are all trying to sell me.

Oh yes your free from sin but you are still in bondage to sin.

Oh yes we don't sin but we sin.

seriously?

You are just missing the point is all.
Christ changes lives, and breaks the chains of sin,

But to insert perfection as a 'here and now' is not truthful. You are setting people up for a huge disappointment.
How do you handle it when you do make mistakes?

I handle it by taking it to the cross. I know I'm a sinner, but I also know I have been given the power to overcome!

 

[Atwood]

Paul is imply illustrating slavery to sin. romans 8 and 7 can not be true at the same time.

What is your proof of that one?

that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Christians may walk after the flesh or after the Spirit. But they are not in the flesh.

Rom 13 tells the Christian to put on the Lord Jesus and make no provision for the flesh to satisfy its lusts. Those lusts will be there, & indeed the Christian can go that route.

But how can you know about any of this without first trusting Christ as Savior, instead of chance-giver? You seem to be hinting at sinless perfectionism combined with the idea that you can lose your salvation -- is that right?

Anyone taking that route would be well-advised to confess the sin of self-righteousness & the sin of writing off the Savior as a mere chance-giver. The cry out, God be merciful to me a sinner. Then trust Him as Savior.

 

[Kerry]

Go, we are spiritual. yet we live in flesh bodies. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and as long as remain in these flesh bodies we will sin and it brings greater meaning to the work of Christ. Man do I need the cross.

 

[Atwood]

Well you can have your Jekyl and Hyde Ill take Christ and day of the week.

Neither the Jekyl nor Hyde is the Savior. The Lord Jesus is the Savior (not a mere chance-giver even on Friday night).

When will you take Christ as your Savior, & repent of making Him mere chance-giver?

 

[gotime]

Well while I most certainly do not agree with this weak Gospel reducing Christ to an upholsterer.

I thank you all for your input. We are saved only by Grace through Faith. I just happen to know God does a better Job of saving us than what I am hearing here.

I am done for now.
Look after yourselves and than x again no hard feelings.

 

[Ukorin]

I've never met an unsaved person who said that they are slaves to the Law.
I have rarely met an unsaved person who felt any guilt about their pet sins, never mind the feeling of 'doing what I hate, and not doing what I know I should, and doing what I know I shouldn't".
These are the woes of a Believer, not an unbeliever.

 

[Kerry]

only when the self righteousness of the flesh is shunned and accept the work of he cross.

 

[Atwood]

Agreed Paul always had the law so how is it that the law comes on him again? Is Paul saying he decided to go back to law after he had faith? what are you suggesting?

Yes. I am suggesting that Paul was alive apart from the law. His trust was in the Lord Jesus living by faith. But when the commandment came, sin which had been dormant came back to life; he then found himself in a carnal state where it was not longer "me" his better me doing the sinning, but his Old Man flesh was in operation.

 

[vic1980]

Taking thoughts captive was a very abstract idea to me at one time, but once I realized that with the help of the Holy Spirit I can, it has changed a lot for me. Change your thoughts, change your world.

Hebrews 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted

God Bless