Baptism Essential to Salvation

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, so we do agree on your first statement.

You said that John prophesied to all regarding Holy Spirit baptism that would soon come. But the challenge is who is the "you" in that verse where Jesus says you would receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Did he mean every human being? Or was she just speaking in general terms. I believe the first incident of Holy Spirit baptism followed on the day of Pentecost and Acts chapter 2 verse 38. We also know it happened at the house of Cornelius.

I do not think we need to see who the you is at all. just see what the rest of scripture says concerning it.

I also think we just look at johns message.

he told them to repent. The kingdom is at hand. Don't look at me, I just baptise with water, look to the one coming after me who has a better baptism, he will baptize with the HS. and also a warning, he will also baptize with fire (that shall never be quenched, which is ONLY said of hell fire, there will be weeping and nashing of teeth)

he uses a well known agriculture term to explain what he meant.

We are told (by Christ himself) that he lets the chaff (unbeliever) live among the wheat (children of God) he does nt just take the chaff out. or the wheat, they must live together. so more can be saved.

The winnowing fan in is the hand of Christ. He one day will separate the wheat from the chaff. The way he separates the wheat is via the baptism of the spirit. What he does with the chaff is baptize it in eternal fire.

John is saying we need to make a choice. Repent, And let Jesus baptise you with the spirit. Or do not repent, and he will baptize you in hell.

Just because acts 2 and acts 10 specifically mentions this baptism, does not mean it is the only time it occurred. It could easily be mentioned only these two times to prove that jew and Gentile alike have access to the kingdom. God will baptise them (us) all.. no need to mention any more occurrences, it would be assumed.

remember also. Jesus told the disciples they would be baptized with the cup (of suffering) jesus was baptized with also. Most of them were also killed for their faith. Peter being crucified himself. Again no water mentioned here, Just another use of the word baptizo. and again, like I said, if the interpreters interpreted the word, and did not transliterate it, I doubt we would be having this discussion. No one would be thinking we have to be baptised in water to be saved. because there would be no word baptize.

I don't see an Colossians chapter 2 where Paul said we are spiritually baptized by God.

Buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised, in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

I do not see how it could be much more clearer about who it is that does this baptism into Christs burial and ressurection.

on your next statement, if you're referring to first Corinthians 12:13, I do not think this means baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Well that is your opinion, and you are free to have it. But I must strongly disagree. Who else can literally immerse us into Christ. Certainly not your pastor.

I have said more times than I can count that there is nothing in the water to save you. Baptism in water is a command of God for the remission of sins Acts 2:38. The power is in Christ's blood and we come in contact with that blood by being baptized Galatians 3:26 and 27.

Thus your relegating God to hold back his gift until another man does a work. Making the person being saved actually saved by the man baptising them, and Not God who is truly able to wash them.

Unfortunately, many men and women will probably be in hell because they died between the time they had faith in Christ, and they could get some man to baptize them. (if they could be baptized at all, my sister in law could not go in the water because of health issues. But I KNOW she was saved, )

God gave many commands, It does not mean they save you, or have any part in your salvation. Salvation is of grace through faith alone in the work of God. Good deeds (like baptism communion and giving to the poor) are all commands of God which those who had true faith will perform. Which prove they were saved.

God did not come and say, Here is my gift, are you ready to recieve it? You are? Good. Go do this one good deed to prove your faith was real and I will give it to you.

On the contrary, he handed the gift to the person who took it in faith, then said good. Now here are some things i would really like you to do. They are for your benefit. Water baptism just happens to be one of those things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me also add that since the great commission is water baptism, if we added another baptism, We are contradicting what Paul said in Ephesians 4:5 there is one baptism.

No, this is not true.

Paul was saying there was one baptism which saves. While admitting there was more than one baptism.

The problem is, which one is it? Water baptism, or baptism of the spirit.

 

[Alligator]

No, No, Yes

Christ himself is the only one who could perform Holy Spirit baptism. There are only two special occasions of it being used. On the day of Pentecost and at the household of Cornelius.

Every baptized believer receives the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

So John lied when he said jesus would baptise with the spirit? Sad that he told probaly thousands of people jesus would baptise them, and jesus only baptized a select few.

So jesus can not baptise you and I? Why can he not? I thought God could do anything?

no one is lying here. As I said before we don't know who the "you" are. A prediction is best understood in light of its fulfillment. We know there was Holy Spirit baptism on the day of Pentecost and we know it also occurred at the house of Cornelius. Beyond that is speculation. Even if Jesus meant the entire assembly there in his presence, he never promised Holy Spirit baptism to all of mankind for eternity.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no one is lying here. As I said before we don't know who the "you" are. A prediction is best understood in light of its fulfillment. We know there was Holy Spirit baptism on the day of Pentecost and we know it also occurred at the house of Cornelius. Beyond that is speculation. Even if Jesus meant the entire assembly there in his presence, he never promised Holy Spirit baptism to all of mankind for eternity.

yeah we do and can no know. By looking at all john said about it (wheat tares winnowing fan) and the rest of scripture.

no disciples where their when John said, it, and Cornelius was not there, John would not give people hope by saying look to the baptism of one coming after him, and not to his own baptism, unless they were going to recieve that baptism.

Thats like telling a group of people someone is going to come and give them something they all want. and when that someone comes. He only gives it to a few people, non of which were there when the announcement was made. There would be a riot!

 

[Alligator]

Let me also add that since the great commission is water baptism, if we added another baptism, We are contradicting what Paul said in Ephesians 4:5 there is one baptism.

No, this is not true.

Paul was saying there was one baptism which saves. While admitting there was more than one baptism.

The problem is, which one is it? Water baptism, or baptism of the spirit.

but Paul did not say that. You're reading that In EG

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but Paul did not say that. You're reading that In EG

I am?

why just mention there is one baptism if there is not more than one baptism? if that is all there is, then there is no need to mention it. because everyone knows it.

 

[Alligator]

but Paul did not say that. You're reading that In EG

I am?

why just mention there is one baptism if there is not more than one baptism? if that is all there is, then there is no need to mention it. because everyone knows it.

The reason he said it is because there was more than one baptism, such as John's, but only one that is effective now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The reason he said it is because there was more than one baptism, such as John's, but only one that is effective now.

thats quite a big assumption there.

 

[Alligator]

thats quite a big assumption there.

Look at your post 787. I agree, there was more than one baptism being practiced including John's so Paul saw fit to set the record straight because now there is only one baptism in effect.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look at your post 787. I agree, there was more than one baptism being practiced including John's so Paul saw fit to set the record straight because now there is only one baptism in effect.

it still is an assumption. Not based on fact. It may be true, it may not be true, Which only goes to prove this is not a very good passage to support either of our cases.

 

[Alligator]

I do not think we need to see who the you is at all. just see what the rest of scripture says concerning it.

I also think we just look at johns message.

he told them to repent. The kingdom is at hand. Don't look at me, I just baptise with water, look to the one coming after me who has a better baptism, he will baptize with the HS. and also a warning, he will also baptize with fire (that shall never be quenched, which is ONLY said of hell fire, there will be weeping and nashing of teeth)

he uses a well known agriculture term to explain what he meant.

We are told (by Christ himself) that he lets the chaff (unbeliever) live among the wheat (children of God) he does nt just take the chaff out. or the wheat, they must live together. so more can be saved.

The winnowing fan in is the hand of Christ. He one day will separate the wheat from the chaff. The way he separates the wheat is via the baptism of the spirit. What he does with the chaff is baptize it in eternal fire.

John is saying we need to make a choice. Repent, And let Jesus baptise you with the spirit. Or do not repent, and he will baptize you in hell.

Just because acts 2 and acts 10 specifically mentions this baptism, does not mean it is the only time it occurred. It could easily be mentioned only these two times to prove that jew and Gentile alike have access to the kingdom. God will baptise them (us) all.. no need to mention any more occurrences, it would be assumed.

remember also. Jesus told the disciples they would be baptized with the cup (of suffering) jesus was baptized with also. Most of them were also killed for their faith. Peter being crucified himself. Again no water mentioned here, Just another use of the word baptizo. and again, like I said, if the interpreters interpreted the word, and did not transliterate it, I doubt we would be having this discussion. No one would be thinking we have to be baptised in water to be saved. because there would be no word baptize.





Buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised, in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

I do not see how it could be much more clearer about who it is that does this baptism into Christs burial and ressurection.


Well that is your opinion, and you are free to have it. But I must strongly disagree. Who else can literally immerse us into Christ. Certainly not your pastor.



Thus your relegating God to hold back his gift until another man does a work. Making the person being saved actually saved by the man baptising them, and Not God who is truly able to wash them.

Unfortunately, many men and women will probably be in hell because they died between the time they had faith in Christ, and they could get some man to baptize them. (if they could be baptized at all, my sister in law could not go in the water because of health issues. But I KNOW she was saved, )

God gave many commands, It does not mean they save you, or have any part in your salvation. Salvation is of grace through faith alone in the work of God. Good deeds (like baptism communion and giving to the poor) are all commands of God which those who had true faith will perform. Which prove they were saved.

God did not come and say, Here is my gift, are you ready to recieve it? You are? Good. Go do this one good deed to prove your faith was real and I will give it to you.

On the contrary, he handed the gift to the person who took it in faith, then said good. Now here are some things i would really like you to do. They are for your benefit. Water baptism just happens to be one of those things.

yes, I believe that the baptism of fire is God's eternal punishment because remember there were Pharisees present at John's baptism that you just referred to.

I had already said that the only two records we have of Holy Spirit baptism was at the household of Cornelius and on the day of Pentecost. There could've been more , but we just do not know.

I have said before, the person who does the baptizing is irrelevant. He has no power, he has no authority, he simply carrying out the physical act.

Noted Bible scholar F. F. Bruce says that proper Bible exegesis demands that scriptures should be taken taken literally unless there is something in the context to indicate they should be figurative. For example, Romans 6:3–6 talks about being buried with Christ in baptism. There is nothing that I see in the context at all that says it should be figurative, I.e. Holy Spirit baptism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes, I believe that the baptism of fire is God's eternal punishment because remember there were Pharisees present at John's baptism that you just referred to.

I had already said that the only two records we have of Holy Spirit baptism was at the household of Cornelius and on the day of Pentecost. There could've been more , but we just do not know.

I can sort of agree here. But I think we can know. Because of what John promised. If Jesus is going to baptize all unbelievers into hell. would it not be going with what John said that he will baptize all believers with the HS (that is how they get into the barn)

I have said before, the person who does the baptizing is irrelevant. He has no power, he has no authority, he simply carrying out the physical act.

I think it matters very much.

A man can immerse me in water.

God can immerse me in Christ, into union with his death and burial. And will immerse me into union with his resurrection on the last day.

unless you think God does not have this power.

Noted Bible scholar F. F. Bruce says that proper Bible exegesis demands that scriptures should be taken taken literally unless there is something in the context to indicate they should be figurative. For example, Romans 6:3–6 talks about being buried with Christ in baptism. There is nothing that I see in the context at all that says it should be figurative, I.e. Holy Spirit baptism.

Water baptism would be figurative my friend, Your adding the word water to the text. making it a figurative context, that the being baptized into water is a figure of being baptised into the death of Christ.

Holy Spirit baptism is the ONLY way to take the passage literally.

The passage literally says, do you not know as many of as were Baptized (immersed or placed into) into Christ, were baptized (immersed or placed into his death,

in the passage, the term Christ and the term His death are the subjects of the action of what we were baptised in. Any other interpretation would be making an allegory or symbolic form of being literally placed into these two objects. And make water (which is not even mentioned) the object into which one is baptised in.

there is no water in rom 6.

 

[Alligator]

I can sort of agree here. But I think we can know. Because of what John promised. If Jesus is going to baptize all unbelievers into hell. would it not be going with what John said that he will baptize all believers with the HS (that is how they get into the barn)



I think it matters very much.

A man can immerse me in water.

God can immerse me in Christ, into union with his death and burial. And will immerse me into union with his resurrection on the last day.

unless you think God does not have this power.



Water baptism would be figurative my friend, Your adding the word water to the text. making it a figurative context, that the being baptized into water is a figure of being baptised into the death of Christ.

Holy Spirit baptism is the ONLY way to take the passage literally.

The passage literally says, do you not know as many of as were Baptized (immersed or placed into) into Christ, were baptized (immersed or placed into his death,

in the passage, the term Christ and the term His death are the subjects of the action of what we were baptised in. Any other interpretation would be making an allegory or symbolic form of being literally placed into these two objects. And make water (which is not even mentioned) the object into which one is baptised in.

there is no water in rom 6.

OK, here is the scripture. Show me where you can say without a doubt that this refers to Spirit baptism.

Romans 6:3-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.


5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.


Footnotes:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK, here is the scripture. Show me where you can say without a doubt that this refers to Spirit baptism.

Romans 6:3-6
English Standard Version (ESV)
3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.


5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.


Footnotes:

again, read it, and do not put the transliterated word in there Actually translate it. Especially since you agree that baptizo means to be immersed into or placed into

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been immersed or placed into into Christ Jesus were immersed or placed into into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism being immersed or placed into into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.


5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Then look at the two words united there. This is the other key word. For peter said that the children of Israel were baptized into moses in the cloud and the sea.

You see. The children of Israel were unted with moses by being baptized into him by God himself. Moses being the head.

When I am immersed into the death and burial I am united with those two events.

Lastly. if you look. Paul is saying an event happened to us. (actually a few events)

that baptism into (insert the subject) are the literal events which took place.

 

[Alligator]

again, read it, and do not put the transliterated word in there Actually translate it. Especially since you agree that baptizo means to be immersed into or placed into

3 Do you not know that all of us who have been immersed or placed into into Christ Jesus were immersed or placed into into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism being immersed or placed into into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.


5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Then look at the two words united there. This is the other key word. For peter said that the children of Israel were baptized into moses in the cloud and the sea.

You see. The children of Israel were unted with moses by being baptized into him by God himself. Moses being the head.

When I am immersed into the death and burial I am united with those two events.

Lastly. if you look. Paul is saying an event happened to us. (actually a few events)

that baptism into (insert the subject) are the literal events which took place.

I read it, it still doesn't say Spirit baptism. Keep picturing baptism as a burial and an immersion. That's exactly what water baptism is. And again, if it Spirit baptism, then that conflicts with what Jesus told the apostles in the great commission. That also means that there are still two baptisms instead of one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I read it, it still doesn't say Spirit baptism.

I will be honest my friend. I don;t get you. Why does it have to say spirit baptism. It does not. It talks about an act which actually happened. Now yuo have to decide who did the act. the HS, or some man.

Keep picturing baptism as a burial and an immersion.

so your going to take the symbolic approach to interpret it and not the literal? Was it not you who demanded we must take it literally. and here you are making it symbolic.

That's exactly what water baptism is.

Yep. It is symbolic. of being baptised into the death and burial.

Now. what does the symbol represent? would it not be the actual baptism into Christ and the other two things?

again, you are the one who screamed against a symbolic interpretation. yet you are taking the symbolic interpretation.

And again, if it Spirit baptism, then that conflicts with what Jesus told the apostles in the great commission. That also means that there are still two baptisms instead of one.

No it does not. Because in the great commission he told them to make disciples. and then BAPTIZE THEM.

the baptism came after the salvation (making disciples)

there are many baptisms.

holy spirit baptism
Baptism in fire
Baptism (cermonial washing of things)
Baptism into moses
Johns baptism
Baptism of the disciples, except paul he claimed he did not baptize anyone his mission was to spread the gospel to get people saved (oops, if baptism is required, paul screwed up because baptism is the gospel)
Christs baptism.

so not sure of your point.

Paul said I was literally baptised into the death of Christ, He does not say I was symbolically baptised into it by some immersion in water. Not to mention. If you are correct, and water is involved, you have more issues. Because the literal translation would be having us baptized into water into his death (baptized into two things) which does not make sense

 

[Alligator]

I will be honest my friend. I don;t get you. Why does it have to say spirit baptism. It does not. It talks about an act which actually happened. Now yuo have to decide who did the act. the HS, or some man.






Yep. It is symbolic. of being baptised into the death and burial.

Now. what does the symbol represent? would it not be the actual baptism into Christ and the other two things?

again, you are the one who screamed against a symbolic interpretation. yet you are taking the symbolic interpretation.



No it does not. Because in the great commission he told them to make disciples. and then BAPTIZE THEM.

the baptism came after the salvation (making disciples)

there are many baptisms.

holy spirit baptism
Baptism in fire
Baptism (cermonial washing of things)
Baptism into moses
Johns baptism
Baptism of the disciples, except paul he claimed he did not baptize anyone his mission was to spread the gospel to get people saved (oops, if baptism is required, paul screwed up because baptism is the gospel)
Christs baptism.

so not sure of your point.

Paul said I was literally baptised into the death of Christ, He does not say I was symbolically baptised into it by some immersion in water. Not to mention. If you are correct, and water is involved, you have more issues. Because the literal translation would be having us baptized into water into his death (baptized into two things) which does not make sense

I think you are mis reading the 28th chapter of Matthew. He said make disciples of all nations, How do you make disciples, by baptizing them in the name of the father son and Holy Spirit, and by teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you. So baptism is a part of making disciples.

The bottom line is you still have a problem with two baptisms.

Quite frankly, I am a little tired of this subject and I would like to move on to something else. Feel free to take the last word.

 

[posthuman]

yes, baptism is essential, but it's not the 'baptism' that you may be thinking of.

"Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

- Jesus​

(John 13:8)

 

[newbirth]

Not everyone was baptized. The passage says only those who had received Christ were. (which proves my point, they had ALREADY received Christ) This fact alone has great damage to your credibility.

And sorry, 2 verses of scripture (which were never in the original in verse form) does not make a doctrine, You ignore so much other scripture which says otherwise.

Jesus told the men who tried to attribute the work of his miracles performed by the HS to satan they were in danger of committing the unpardonable sin.

You my friend are trying to attribute the baptism into Christ performed by the HS to men, You should head hrists warning to them, because it applies to you.

What are you saying...[SUP]41 [/SUP]Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
How many people do you think he was speaking to? Three thousand and one or ten thousand. They received the word because he preached the word to them. Then they asked what shall we do? and they were told ... Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Everyone who received his word repented and was baptised for the remission of sins.

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

This scripture shows that those who came before the command of baptism was issued by our Lord, got baptized into Moses by passing through the cloud ( symbolism of spiritual ) and the sea ( symbolism of water ).