Romans 7 man not saved.
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Was Paul talking to Gentile Christians? Well, techncally the people he was writing to were not Gentile Christians because the Gentiles did not know the Law. However, Paul's written message here was to help both Jew and the Gentile to understand the struggle a person has in trying to keep the Law without being spiritually regenerated by Jesus Christ.
Oh, and there was an Oral Law before the Written Law. How do we know? Joseph said that he could have sinned before God.
"There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" (Genesis 39:9).
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In other words,
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[TD]"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
(1 John 3:4).
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So seeing John believed Christians could still sin (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9), means that we can still break God's laws. For when the Scriptures say that we are not under the Law, it is talking about the Law of Moses and not all Law in general. For obviously all believers can still transgress the Law. To put it to you another way, how can you transgress that thing which does not exist? In other words, what John is saying that the Law of Moses is gone and we are now under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). For even Revelation ends with telling you to keep God's commandments (Revelation 22:14).
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[TD]"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
(1 John 3:4).
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So seeing John believed Christians could still sin (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9), means that we can still break God's laws. For when the Scriptures say that we are not under the Law, it is talking about the Law of Moses and not all Law in general. For obviously all believers can still transgress the Law. To put it to you another way, how can you transgress that thing which does not exist? In other words, what John is saying that the Law of Moses is gone and we are now under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2). For even Revelation ends with telling you to keep God's commandments (Revelation 22:14).
Skinski, you are saying a bunch of things. If you quote your scripture & attempt to prove from that, we may have a meaningful discussion.
Skinski, I will let you do your own homework on a subject that is of interest to you. Run it through the search in your Bible program "heart purity." Or "pure heart." See what you find. Share it with us, & your POV, if you want. I intend to respond. Let us know if you have some proof about your own heart, how pure vs impure it is (50 percent or whatever). If you tell me you never have an impure thought, I may disbelieve you.
Is your heart pure? Or is it like:
The heart is deceitful above all things, & desperately wicked?
Whatever you do, stick close to scripture & take it easle on the pontifications.
Afternoon Jason, I hope you are finding them golden fleas.
I don't read the King Jimmy much, and the ASV (1901) runs that quite differently. Actually neither "law" nor "the law" occurs in that verse. And the KJV gives a poor translation here.
Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ, καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.
Every one that doeth sin doeth also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. (ASV).
Πᾶς ὁ ποιῶν τὴν ἁμαρτίαν = Everyone doing (the) sin
καὶ τὴν ἀνομίαν ποιεῖ = also (the) lawlessness does.
καὶ ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία. = and (the) sin is (the) lawlessness.
It seems to me when the topic is flubbing at the Christian life by being a legalist,
the problem is not specifically limited to the Law of Moses. It could be the law in the conscience, the Teachings of Jesus, or the commandments in the epistles to the Church. It is wrong to accept the Law of Moses as one's standard of conduct; it ended at the cross. It is also wrong to not obey the commandments given us by the Lord. And some of the Law of Moses is of universal application (like Love God, & Love neighbor).
ἀνομία is a sin, rejecting whatever standards the Lord has given us to obey, rejecting the Lordship of Christ.
a = not; nom- = root for law.
Having said that, no commandment has the power to cause obedience; it is like a sign that says "Don't spit here," on its own.
The primary source of standards for Christians is in Acts & the Epistles. Even the Teachings of Jesus & much of the gospels were given under the Law & in the context of the Kingdom announcement (Repent for the KoG is at hand.) Will you only own 1 coat? Will you follow the missionary rules of Mat 10?
But so far as Romans 7 is concerned, the specific command is "Thou shalt not lust/covet," which is still valid today. To me the argument in Rom 7 has nothing to do with the dispensational Law of Moses.
Romans 7 man is SAVED !
Why not have Paul addressing the Church at Rome, gentiles & Jews. ONe would expect the gentiles to have some exposure to the law. I would think it was read in meetings.
It is not persons who were not regenerated.
Paul speaks of himself in the 1st person.
He says he was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came back to life again.
That means
1) sin had been alive in his life.
2) sin died in his life.
3) he had spiritual life.
4) when the commandment came, sin which had been dead lived AGAIN.
This must be a Christian.
Also the two me's require a Christian.
An unregenerate man has no experience of delighting in God's law,
but being unable to defeat sin,
while it is not really the Me doing the sin.
Why not have Paul addressing the Church at Rome, gentiles & Jews. ONe would expect the gentiles to have some exposure to the law. I would think it was read in meetings.
It is not persons who were not regenerated.
Paul speaks of himself in the 1st person.
He says he was alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came back to life again.
That means
1) sin had been alive in his life.
2) sin died in his life.
3) he had spiritual life.
4) when the commandment came, sin which had been dead lived AGAIN.
This must be a Christian.
Also the two me's require a Christian.
An unregenerate man has no experience of delighting in God's law,
but being unable to defeat sin,
while it is not really the Me doing the sin.
And he brings the audience into the passage:
"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God."
The subject is the Christian life of the believer. And that continues.
There is no "they" here, it is Paul, an individual Christian.
And there is no "they were not immediately judged or killed the moment they broke the Law."
If a man is a sinner and not immediately judged, that hardly implies that he is alive spiritually.
And this being alive is not physically alive, no more than the death that followed the coming of the law is physical death.
Being alive apart from the law goes with sin having previously been in action, but now dead. The order is
1) sin live,
2) sin dead,
3) alive apart from the law,
4) coming of the commandment,
5) sin comes back to life again.
Your theory neglects 1).
And it is a far-fetched reading into the text something that just is not there.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died;
Meaning sin had gotten so bad that God needed to stop or minimize the sin in their lives with the written Law.[/QUOTE]
Rom 7 runs contrary to your theory. Rom 7 indicates that the law promotes sins.
"that through the commandment sin might become exceeding sinful."
"sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting"
The Old Testament Law has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ and has been replaced with the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) or the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) within the New Testament. In other words, there are still Laws or Commands in the New Testament.
Romans 7 is still valid for us today because there are many people in various different religions trying to keep the Laws of God without being born again in Jesus Christ so as to walk after the Spirit.
As for the Greek, my guess is that you don't really know what the Kione Greek is saying because Modern Greek is not your native tongue. In other words, that would be like me putting my faith in someone claiming they know 1600's Old English without them knowing Modern English. For people have a hard enough time reading their Bible in English. Now you want to complicate it even more by thinking you know Greek when you really don't know Greek?
And let's just say you did know Modern Greek fluently and Kione Greek, I still would have no way of verifying what you were saying is true because Greek is not my native language. I would have to place my faith in YOUR INTERPRETATION. Which for me is a huge gamble or risk seeing we (each as believers) are to study to show ourselves approved unto God.
Jason, ad hominem is logical fallacy.
I have a master's degree in Greek; but don't take my word for it; check it out yourself in a Greek interlinear -- I think Biblehub.com has one.
There is no such thing as "Kione Greek." You don't know what my native tongue is, so why go on about it? Modern Greek is also irrelevant (I took Modern Greek also in a university). You may as well try to define Latin by Italian.
Compare translations also if you wish.
It's not meant to be an Ad Hominem but merely a statement of truth or fact. Do you speak and write Biblical Greek exactly like the apostles did?
Is it like speaking and writing English to you?
Modern Greek came from Biblical Greek. It is a language that has progressed thru time. Knowing Modern Greek would help you to know Biblical Greek. Just as it would help someone to know Modern English so as to have an idea about 1600's Old English.
Also, it doesn't matter if you show me a Greek interlinear or Lexicon. There is always going to be a man's interpretation involved in the transmission of those texts. There is no way for me to know if they are transcibed correctly because I don't speak or write Modern or Biblical Greek fluently. See, I am familiar with English, so if some guy from another country who has never spoken and written English tried to show me what a sentence said in English, I bet I would have to correct him at some point.
In addition, If Biblical Greek is not Kione Greek, then what would you call it?
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Romans 7 Man Definitely Saved
Yes, we have commandments which should be opportunities for the Christian to show love for the Savior.
As to "The Law of Christ,"
Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ;
I haven't given that one much study, but I don't think it means a code of laws; I am more inclined to think it refers to a special rule that Christ emphasized, like "Do unto others . . . ."
"the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, probably means principle . . . ."
To Israel, God gave laws; to the Church God wrote letters.
Romans 7 is still valid because it is part of the Bible written specifically to the Church, & it describes the carnal state of the Christian, something we are all prone to get into.
Yes, we have commandments which should be opportunities for the Christian to show love for the Savior.
As to "The Law of Christ,"
Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ;
I haven't given that one much study, but I don't think it means a code of laws; I am more inclined to think it refers to a special rule that Christ emphasized, like "Do unto others . . . ."
"the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, probably means principle . . . ."
To Israel, God gave laws; to the Church God wrote letters.
Romans 7 is still valid because it is part of the Bible written specifically to the Church, & it describes the carnal state of the Christian, something we are all prone to get into.
Re: Romans 7 Man Definitely Saved
Romans 7 is still valid because it speaks to every unbeliever or religious legalist as to why they struggle to be good or to obey God's Laws. The solution to their struggle is Jesus Christ.
As for Command in the NT: Christian Assemblies International lists one thousand and fifty commandments within the New Testament.
Just go to Google and type in the key words: "1050 New Testament Commands."
The only commands that I did not see on their list is the following:
I am sure there are more.
As for the Old Testament Law of Moses:
I believe Jesus Christ has nailed that to the Old Law to the cross and implemented the New Covenant Law of Christ or rules under the New Testament (Hebrews 8:13).
Oh, and just so that there is no confusion. We are not saved by any Law keeping, but we are saved by Jesus Christ when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior. Keeping the New Testament Law of Christ is merely the proof that God lives within you. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. For salvation is not a super power but it is a person named Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12).
Hope this helps.
And may God bless you all.
Romans 7 is still valid because it speaks to every unbeliever or religious legalist as to why they struggle to be good or to obey God's Laws. The solution to their struggle is Jesus Christ.
As for Command in the NT: Christian Assemblies International lists one thousand and fifty commandments within the New Testament.
Just go to Google and type in the key words: "1050 New Testament Commands."
The only commands that I did not see on their list is the following:
- Believe & confess that Jesus is God Almighty in the flesh (John 8:24 cf. John 8:57, 58, 59) (1 John 4:3).
- Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)
- Visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction (James 1:27).
- Feed and clothe the poor, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, and those in prison (Matthew 25:35, 36).
- "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:21)
- Thank God without ceasing. (1 Thessalonians 2:13)
- Receive the word of God not as the words of men, but as the very words of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13).
- Give to the poor needy brother; Especially if you wish them well (James 2:15)
- Pray the Lord's prayer (As an outline) (Matthew 6:9-13)
- Pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17)
- Bear with them that preach another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4)
- Reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11)
- Correct and train others in the Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16).
- Walk in the Spirit: This will result in the 9 fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5)
- How to love according to 1 Corinthians 13.
- Keep the words of the prophecy of Revelation (Revelation 1:3).
- Live by speaking the Word of God (Which is our daily bread) (Matthew 4:4)
- Study to show yourself approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15)
- Put on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:11-17)
- Be ye Holy as God is Holy (1 Peter 1:16)
- Do not add or take away from God's Word (Revelation 22:18, 19)
- If we as believers sin, we are to confess our sins (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9)
- Do all things thru Christ (Philippians 4:13)
I am sure there are more.
As for the Old Testament Law of Moses:
I believe Jesus Christ has nailed that to the Old Law to the cross and implemented the New Covenant Law of Christ or rules under the New Testament (Hebrews 8:13).
Oh, and just so that there is no confusion. We are not saved by any Law keeping, but we are saved by Jesus Christ when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior. Keeping the New Testament Law of Christ is merely the proof that God lives within you. For a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. For salvation is not a super power but it is a person named Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12).
Hope this helps.
And may God bless you all.
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H
Hoffco
Guest
Thank you for your admissions. You are correct saying that Modern Greek is not much help in learning and using Bible Greek, "Kione", common, Gk. The Greek of the business world of Jesus. How much Formal training have you had in a Bible college and/or a Bible Seminary? If you have not studies all the views of Christianity and the different schools of theology within Fundamental Christianity, you are very handicapped in your Bible understanding. If your native language is not English, You will also have Difficulty disciplining yourself to understand the English translations. The NASB and the NKJB are both excellent. Love to all, Hoffco What do you think of the Greek in the LXX. written 280 years before Christ.? The LXX is a great, Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.
Romans 7 man IS SAVED
Hoffco,
G Hall Todd must be rolling in his grave; perhaps the foundations of Arch St Pres are shaking. Kione Greek? Give us a break. Koine Greek!
I am a grad of Bible College, Seminary, and have 5 graduate degrees from universities. I only say this because you ask & suggest I might be handicapped in education.
Enough of this ad hominem stuff.
Yes, but the NKJB suffers by being based on the so-called "Majority Text" (much the same as the Received Text, which IMHO is a little corrupt -- only a little).
I don't think we have the LXX. What we have is a Greek Old Testament. So far as I know, we have no copy of it before the 4th Century AD, except in fragments. I think that our so-called LXX is a modification of the LXX based on professed-Christian principles. For example, I think that some of the readings in the LXX were taken from or influenced by NT readings, where the NT gives the gist of the OT in Greek. (The NT never quotes the Hebrew OT -- it cannot, since it is written in Greek.)
You said you graduated from Reformed Episcopal of Phily in 1969. I addressed this before; not sure if you responded. I wondered if you had G. Hall Todd for homiletics, and did you know a friend of mine named Lewis Kisenweather who probably graduated about the same time you did.
Hoffco,
G Hall Todd must be rolling in his grave; perhaps the foundations of Arch St Pres are shaking. Kione Greek? Give us a break. Koine Greek!
I am a grad of Bible College, Seminary, and have 5 graduate degrees from universities. I only say this because you ask & suggest I might be handicapped in education.
Enough of this ad hominem stuff.
Yes, but the NKJB suffers by being based on the so-called "Majority Text" (much the same as the Received Text, which IMHO is a little corrupt -- only a little).
I don't think we have the LXX. What we have is a Greek Old Testament. So far as I know, we have no copy of it before the 4th Century AD, except in fragments. I think that our so-called LXX is a modification of the LXX based on professed-Christian principles. For example, I think that some of the readings in the LXX were taken from or influenced by NT readings, where the NT gives the gist of the OT in Greek. (The NT never quotes the Hebrew OT -- it cannot, since it is written in Greek.)
You said you graduated from Reformed Episcopal of Phily in 1969. I addressed this before; not sure if you responded. I wondered if you had G. Hall Todd for homiletics, and did you know a friend of mine named Lewis Kisenweather who probably graduated about the same time you did.
Re: Romans 7 Man Definitely Saved
Thanks for the ref. So you have 1050 Plus opportunities for the commandment to come. Did they include the ones in John 4: "Go, call thy husband, and come hither." (That's 3). How about the one to sell your coat & buy a sword? (That's 2). How about the one to give away your 2nd coat to the one who lacks?
Well Jason, I don't know of one verse that speaks of "accept Him as our Savior." I don't mean to quibble over words; "receive" is used once. But the normal word used over & over again is believe or have faith. So I prefer to speak in those terms.
As to "repent of our sins," I also don't know a verse for that one. Judas repented; then went and hanged himself. But Judas was the metamelomai repent, being sorry. Saving repentance is metanoia, not being sorry for sins, not turning over a new leaf, but a CHANGE OF MIND. The only change of mind that saves is from not trusting to trusting the Lord Jesus as SAvior (not mere "chance-giver").
Now to be sure, when one approaches the SAvior for salvation, one is implying that one is a sinner; one is seeing salvation from sin.
Sirs, what must-I-do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
There is only one essential, one must-I-do for salvation.
Thanks for the ref. So you have 1050 Plus opportunities for the commandment to come. Did they include the ones in John 4: "Go, call thy husband, and come hither." (That's 3). How about the one to sell your coat & buy a sword? (That's 2). How about the one to give away your 2nd coat to the one who lacks?
Well Jason, I don't know of one verse that speaks of "accept Him as our Savior." I don't mean to quibble over words; "receive" is used once. But the normal word used over & over again is believe or have faith. So I prefer to speak in those terms.
As to "repent of our sins," I also don't know a verse for that one. Judas repented; then went and hanged himself. But Judas was the metamelomai repent, being sorry. Saving repentance is metanoia, not being sorry for sins, not turning over a new leaf, but a CHANGE OF MIND. The only change of mind that saves is from not trusting to trusting the Lord Jesus as SAvior (not mere "chance-giver").
Now to be sure, when one approaches the SAvior for salvation, one is implying that one is a sinner; one is seeing salvation from sin.
Sirs, what must-I-do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
There is only one essential, one must-I-do for salvation.