The phony evangelism of Calvinism

[posthuman]

God will not allow Christ's sheep to be snatched out of His hand NOT because of the man made idea of eternal security, that some add to the text, but because the sheep are faithful in their hearing and following Christ, v27. If the sheep become unfaithful in their hearing and following, they remove themselves from God's hand.

what sort of shepherd folds his hands and says, 'my sheep will be fine; they always come when i call them'
and does nothing to drive away the wolves?

Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them.
Doesn't he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
(Luke 15:4)

the Shepherd i know pulls me out of the brambles when i'm entangled, and drives away jackals and robbers when they seek to capture me.

 

[posthuman]

So you are taking Rom 9 out of context to claim God forced/caused those people to not to hear. Then God sends them prophets, already knowing they will not hear because God caused them not to hear and then God punishes those people for not hearing, even though God is the cause of their inability to hear?

Very convoluted theology. Even though God caused them not to hear, did God still expect them to hear when He sent them prophets to preach to them? So God caused them not to hear and then is upset/angry when they do not hear? Essentially God made Himself angry by causing them not to hear but takes His anger out on them for what God caused Himself. Convoluted indeed.

well you can take that up with God Himself. i'm just reading from the book.

They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement:
“The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

“ ‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’

“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

(Acts 28:25-28)

it appears that if God had not done this, you and i would still be separated from our Salvation.

 

[SeaBass]

These are not questions of doctrine, but questioning the motive and mind of God.
The Word says that He knew them and loved them before the world was created.
The basis is His love, not randomness.

Was there a basis as to why God loved 'Joe' and not 'Jack'?

Not being able to give a basis leaves a gaping black hole in Calvinistic theology. So how can Calvinists say they are right and others are wrong when Calvinists have this 'black hole' they can give no explanation for?

 

[SeaBass]

A person knows they are saved, because God places a calling upon them.

The word is "faith".
Personal assurance of salvation certainly comes with obedience, as we show ourselves to be what the Word says that He will make us.

Again, what basis does God use to place a "calling" upon one and not another? Randomness?

 

[SeaBass]

what sort of shepherd folds his hands and says, 'my sheep will be fine; they always come when i call them'
and does nothing to drive away the wolves?

Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them.
Doesn't he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
(Luke 15:4)

the Shepherd i know pulls me out of the brambles when i'm entangled, and drives away jackals and robbers when they seek to capture me.

Jn 10:27 is about the sheep hearing and following the Shepherd. Jesus said "My sheep" so only those that meet the qualification of being one of "my sheep" are the sheep that choose to have a sustained hearing and following.

Jn 10:27,28 show both sides of the salvation equation:

1) man's faithfulness to God [in his hearing and following Christ]
2) God's faithfulness to man [those faithful sheep in not allowing them to be snatched away]

God never promised to be faithful to those that become unfaithful to him.

 

[posthuman]

Was there a basis as to why God loved 'Joe' and not 'Jack'?

i can't give you a basis for why God loved me. that's what makes His grace so unfathomably great, and my joy so full - that while i was wretched in my sin, having no good thin in me, He loved me, and sent even His son to be a propitiation for me, just as He said long before:

I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
(Isaiah 65:1)

on the other hand, does God love you only because of your righteous works? (i.e. filthy rags)
how great is that salvation?

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
do not even the publicans the same?
(Matthew 5:46)

shall we be obedient out of fear of the terror of damnation, or for love?

 

[gregfl]

C.S. Lewis wrote, "Imagine the delight that is given to Satan, when people are in contact with him and they think they are in contact with the Living God." This is Satan's brightest moment. His most dazzling deception! He has his way of conversion as well. "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11.14). Even Satan's ministers come as angels of light, e.g. Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards, Pink, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, MacArthur, James White, Phil Johnson, Washer, Fred Driscoll, etc. The god of Calvinism is an evil tyrant unworthy of worship. Stop priding yourself on the delusion you were irresistibly regenerated and others were not given this forced election. Love that forced is not real love. If you are a Calvinist, you were never born-again. Accept it. If you were you could repent of Calvinism right here and now by the grace of God and conviction of the Holy Spirit! Amen.

Calvinism is Utterly Evil

 

[posthuman]

Jn 10:27 is about the sheep hearing and following the Shepherd. Jesus said "My sheep" so only those that meet the qualification of being one of "my sheep" are the sheep that choose to have a sustained hearing and following.

you said if a sheep becomes lost, they are no longer God's sheep.
Jesus said if a sheep becomes lost, He will go after it, until He finds it.

 

[SeaBass]

well you can take that up with God Himself. i'm just reading from the book.

They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement:
“The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

“ ‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’

“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

(Acts 28:25-28)

it appears that if God had not done this, you and i would still be separated from our Salvation.

I take it up with you for God does not act in unreasonable, unjust ways as Calvinism has Him acting.

In Acts 28 those people by their own free will choice closed their own eyes and ears, God did not force them to have closed eyes and ears. The Gentiles of their own free will chose to listen. Back in the context of Acts 13:48 [the supposed "proof text" for Calvinists] how in verse 42 Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath and in verse 46 the Jews put God's word away from themselves.

 

[SeaBass]

you said if a sheep becomes lost, they are no longer God's sheep.
Jesus said if a sheep becomes lost, He will go after it, until He finds it.

Jesus said MY SHEEP hear my voice and they follow me. Are you going to suggest one can be one of MY SHEEP WITHOUT hearing and following Christ?

All lost sheep are not found. Sheep have the responsibility to remain with the Shepherd and continually hear and follow him and if they fall away, to return to the Shepherd.

 

[posthuman]

All lost sheep are not found. Sheep have the responsibility to remain with the Shepherd and continually hear and follow him and if they fall away, to return to the Shepherd.

does He say "which of you having 100 sheep, if one becomes lost, does not look for it, but waits and sees if it returns, and disowns the sheep if it doesn't come back of it's own free will" ?

or does He say a Good Shepherd goes out and does not return until He finds that lost sheep?

was the Gospel sent out to the Gentiles, or did God wait and see how many of them would decide on our own to become Jews?

 

[gregfl]

[FONT=Arial,Geneva,sans-serif]Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Geneva,sans-serif]Calvinism Refuted By Scripture [/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

does He say "which of you having 100 sheep, if one becomes lost, does not look for it, but waits and sees if it returns, and disowns the sheep if it doesn't come back of it's own free will" ?

or does He say a Good Shepherd goes out and does not return until He finds that lost sheep?

was the Gospel sent out to the Gentiles, or did God wait and see how many of them would decide on our own to become Jews?

some people just don;t get it. They are too proud to give it all to God. they have to feel special, and have a part in it.

 

[SeaBass]

i can't give you a basis for why God loved me. that's what makes His grace so unfathomably great, and my joy so full - that while i was wretched in my sin, having no good thin in me, He loved me, and sent even His son to be a propitiation for me, just as He said long before:

I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me.
To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.'
(Isaiah 65:1)

on the other hand, does God love you only because of your righteous works? (i.e. filthy rags)
how great is that salvation?

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye?
do not even the publicans the same?
(Matthew 5:46)

shall we be obedient out of fear of the terror of damnation, or for love?

So you have a gaping black hole in your theology.


Calvinism cannot give us a basis but the bible does: O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-E

If Joe is saved and Jack is not that is because Joe obeyed Christ, Heb 5:9 and Jack did not, 2 Thess 1:8. Joe's obedience (as Abraham's) is counted as righteousness, Acts 10:35, not as filthy rags.

 

[posthuman]

So you have a gaping black hole in your theology.


Calvinism cannot give us a basis but the bible does: O-B-E-D-I-E-N-C-E

If Joe is saved and Jack is not that is because Joe obeyed Christ, Heb 5:9 and Jack did not, 2 Thess 1:8. Joe's obedience (as Abraham's) is counted as righteousness, Acts 10:35, not as filthy rags.

maybe you missed the part where i said:

shall we be obedient out of fear of the terror of damnation, or of love?

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”And he said to him,
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
This is the great and first commandment.
And a second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Matthew 22:36-40)

 

[SeaBass]

does He say "which of you having 100 sheep, if one becomes lost, does not look for it, but waits and sees if it returns, and disowns the sheep if it doesn't come back of it's own free will" ?

or does He say a Good Shepherd goes out and does not return until He finds that lost sheep?

was the Gospel sent out to the Gentiles, or did God wait and see how many of them would decide on our own to become Jews?

In that same chapter of Lk 15, the father did not go out looking for the son until he found the son, but the son "came to himself" and returned to the father. Sometimes the lost do not "come to themselves" and remain lost.

So one cannot take a parable as the parable of the lost sheep and twist eternal security bias into it. If that were the case, then one can take the parable and hold Jesus accountable, accusing Jesus of being a bad shepherd for allowing sheep going astray:

Purpose of a Parable

A parable is an illustrative narrative that generally is designed to teach one main point. Occasionally there are subsidiary, practical truths to be gained as well, but usually the focus of the story is limited. It certainly is the case that there are various elements that form the framework of the presentation that have no essential relevance to the main thread of truth.

In his classic work on the science of biblical interpretation, D. R. Dungan noted that “there may be many things in a parable that are merely incidental, and are no part of the lesson to be learned” (p. 242).

In another fine work that deals with analyzing parables, Lockhart has shown an important distinction between the essential “analogy” of the parable, and other features he calls “embellishments.” These embellishments are descriptive elements that form the background of the persons or actions by which the prime truth of the narrative is presented.

“The careful interpreter, therefore, will not hastily impose analogies upon such parts, otherwise, he may be certain that in many cases he will burden the parable with lessons which the author never intended to convey” (p. 169).
​

Be Careful With Parables

If one is disposed to treat the Savior’s parables with such harsh and unwarranted criticism, there is no end to which he might go in indicting the Lord with unsavory implications.

For example, might one suggest that Jesus approved of robbery and violence because some of the characters in the parable of the “good Samaritan” robbed and beat the Hebrew traveler, leaving him in a desperate strait (Luke 10:30-35). After all, if it had not been for the outlaws, the Samaritan would hardly have had the opportunity to exhibit such benevolence! But what reasonable person would draw such a conclusion?

Should the Lord be charged with carelessness because he told the story of a shepherd who left ninety-nine sheep in the wilderness, while he went seeking a solitary lost animal (Luke 15:3-7)?

Is God’s foreknowledge nullified because he is represented as saying regarding the people of Israel, “They will reverence my son” (Matthew 21:37)? Is the parable misleading since God knew that the Jews would reject and crucify his Son before he ever sent him? Obviously that is pressing the imagery much too far.

A skeptic recently contended that Jesus sent his disciples out to murder those who would not accept him. He attempted to argue his case on the basis of Luke 19:27. “Bring them here and slay them before me.” Could a position be more irrational? No reasonable argument could persuade the gentleman that the Lord was teaching by means of a parable (v. 11), and this element of it referenced the Judgment and the ultimate punishment of the wicked.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1108-did-jesus-christ-endorse-dishonesty
Wayne Jackson

So the one main point of the three parables in Luke 15 is not eternal security, but Jesus was being accused This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them, verse 2. Therefore Jesus spake this parable unto them, saying...

Jesus in these parables is saying He went among the sinners to take the gospel to 'seek' the lost for the Jew rejected Him and His word. It has nothing to do with eternal security at all. If you can read eternal security into the parables then anyone can read anything they want to into these parables.

 

[SeaBass]

maybe you missed the part where i said:

shall we be obedient out of fear of the terror of damnation, or of love?

“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”And he said to him,
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
This is the great and first commandment.
And a second is like it:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
(Matthew 22:36-40)

So is salvation CONDITIONAL upon Joe's obedience to God's law or is salvation UNCONDITIONAL where God randomly chose Joe to be saved unconditionally before the world began?

 

[SeaBass]

Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

Calvinism Refuted By Scripture

Calvinism takes all accountability and responsibility away from man and puts it all upon God. Therefore if one is lost it is all God's fault and blame for man has no fault, blame accountability, responsibilty under Calvinism.

 

[maxwel]

Re: The phony evangelism of Arminianism

Rather than stare at the obnoxious thread title about Calvinism, I figured I may as well start a counterthread called


The phony evangelism of Arminianism.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/96207-phony-evangelism-arminianism.html

What type of evangelism is it which changes "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and get a chance at Heaven"?

What type of evangelism is it which changes,

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins" to
"He shall give His temporary associates a chance to keep themselves free from sin by their free will"?

Sound phony to me.

Quick Note:

Most Christians who are non-calvinist are NOT Arminians.

Seriously.
Calling someone an Arminian over and over isn't enough to make them an Arminian.
Sorry.

Arminian doctrine states you can lose your salvation at any moment, and that is not what the average non-calvinist believes.

The label of Arminian, and all the doctrines of Arminianism are flippantly, and incorrectly, tossed onto anyone who isn't a Calvinist. It would be more wise (not to mention more polite) if people would take a moment to figure out the "actual" beliefs of those they're arguing with, before they start arguing.

First comes a misunderstanding of what the other person actually believes, then comes a ridiculous strawman argument based on that misunderstanding.

I'm not a Calvinist, but when I talk to a Calvinst, I try not to misrepresent his beliefs by using tired, stereotypical, and incorrect theological labels and straw man arguments. I also really appreciate it when Calvinists do me the same courtesy.

Alright, please carry on.
Back to the blood, death, and dismemberment over the same Calvinism debate we have daily.
: )

 

[StoneThrower]

All
I see a lot of crazy talk here from people that have no idea what they are talking about. Please watch Amazing Grace so you can speak more intelligently on the matter.

[video=youtube;oCtrOqYXekE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCtrOqYXekE[/video]