Rapture= false teaching

[Definition_Christ]

Thankyou shad, for your honesty - that the pre-trib rapture is not found in the early church or well understood by old testament prophets. That is strange though because Pastor Keith posted something from Daniel before, and all of the end times stuff in Revelation comes from Daniel.

You've just shown us that , despite the 12 apostles walking and talking with Christ personally, important relevations regarding the end times were only delivered to the apostle Paul, years after Christ's death.

Which brings me back to what I said a long time ago - are we following Christ and the 12 apostles or Paul?

So are you admitting Paul taught the rapture?

 

[timjim]

It's bad enough that they teach false doctrine, even worse is they profit from it - money that could have gone to suppport the persecuted.

I seen on utube clips of children who had converted from islam to Christianity and they were crying saying how they pray that they will not deny Christ.. One child had been cut with glass one person had boiling water poured down their throut.

All I'm saying is these people know there life will be in danger before they become a Christian.

And I am just afraid pre trib people are just going to freak if great pursecution should come.

Everyone should at least be open to the thought of suffering persecution.

 

[MahogonySnail]

No, I'm saying that Paul couldn't have taught the rapture given it is thought not to have been taught by Christ or believed by the 12 apostles.

Remember Paul had his doctrine and revelations checked by the apostles at Jerusalem, which sort of defeats that argument.

It's very strange that only Paul would have this mysterious revelation, as some pre-tribbers claim. Then again I'm used to reading strange things from pre-tribbers, such as that the Spirit can be removed and people will still be converted to christianity anyway, or that airplanes will start falling out of the sky and crashing because the pilots were raptured, or that the rapture will occur in 2012. Or that its ok for christians to shoot and kill non-converts in the tribulation period. Or that the two witnesses have supernatural powers that they can deflect machine gun fire and breathe fire out of their mouth like a dragon.

 

[Definition_Christ]

No, I'm saying that Paul couldn't have taught the rapture given it is thought not to have been taught by Christ or believed by the 12 apostles.

Remember Paul had his doctrine and revelations checked by the apostles at Jerusalem.

It's very strange that only Paul would have this mysterious revelation, as some pre-tribbers claim.

Sorry you are saying the way God works is very strange?

Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

 

[timjim]

The dead in Christ shall rise first...see my interpretation would be the ones that died during the great tribulation or before.But those who remain alive shall be caught up....Now I think that is those who survive the tribulation.

 

[greatkraw]

All you heretics have a fuzzy concept of the doctrines of the Holy Spirit, Israel and the Church.

If we define Christian narrowly as only members of the Church then they only occur from Pentecost to the Rapture.

That means BELIEVERS from other DISPENSATIONS are NOT THE CHURCH ie Christians

Specifically, those pre flood, pre Abraham, pre Christ , Tribulational Martyrs and Millenium believers.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Sorry you are saying the way God works is very strange?

Yes, supposedly giving important revelation about the end times to Paul and not the chief apostles, Peter, James, John, is very strange indeed.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yes, supposedly giving important revelation about the end times to Paul and not the chief apostles, Peter, James, John, is very strange indeed.

At least you agree He gave Paul that revelation .

 

[MahogonySnail]

Of course, God gave Paul revelation, whether or not that differed from what Christ or the 12 apostles believed and taught is the issue.

By the way, the best information I've found as to the origins of the pre-trib rapture is that it came about by prophetic revelation to a young catholic apostolic woman in the 1800's, not the apostle Paul.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Of course, God gave Paul revelation, whether or not that differed from what Christ or the 12 apostles believed and taught is the issue.

By the way, the best information I've found as to the origins of the pre-trib rapture is that it came about by prophetic revelation to a young catholic apostolic woman in the 1800's, not the apostle Paul.

At least you agree He gave Paul that revelation .

(referring to the rapture)


By the way..
The best information I've found as to the originals of the rapture, is the one that came out of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.

 

[greatkraw]

Of course, God gave Paul revelation, whether or not that differed from what Christ or the 12 apostles believed and taught is the issue.

By the way, the best information I've found as to the origins of the pre-trib rapture is that it came about by prophetic revelation to a young catholic apostolic woman in the 1800's, not the apostle Paul.

There is an important principle about disseminating propoganda, Snail. Never lose sight of the fact that you know its a lie. If people want to take your word for something and not check it out that is their problem.

 

[MahogonySnail]

By the way..
The best information I've found as to the originals of the rapture, is the one that came out of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.

Yes, thats all you have, that one little tiny snippet of scripture that is most often mangled in interpretation anyway.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Yes, thats all you have

Wow... That would be THE WORD OF GOD... It's ALL I need.

 

[greatkraw]

Are you telling me Snail that I can find no reference to the concept of the Pretrib Rapture between 100 AD and 1800AD?

I'll make it easy for you...


...between 100AD and 1000 AD

 

[MahogonySnail]

Wow... That would be THE WORD OF GOD... It's ALL I need.

One little passage in one small chapter of a very big bible . A doctrine has to be confirmed by two or more witnesses. Paul is only one witness.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Are you telling me Snail that I can find no reference to the concept of the Pretrib Rapture between 100 AD and 1800AD?

I'll make it easy for you...


...between 100AD and 1000 AD

I know there's supposed vague references to such a doctrine. We already make use of early church writers to confirm , Trinity ,the canon of scripture, and other things such as these. I don't see why pre-tribbers are allergic to looking into these things when it concerns the rapture.

 

[Definition_Christ]

One little passage in one small chapter of a very big bible . A doctrine has to be confirmed by two or more witnesses. Paul is only one witness.

Paul is one witness? Wow you are finally admitting that Paul preached the rapture! Let's see...
HMMM!! Think for a moment... Who inspired Paul to write this?

2 Peter 1:21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

If the Holy Spirit spoke that to Paul..

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Hmm... Yeshua, through the Holy Spirit will TELL US THINGS TO COME? I wonder what that could possibly be talking about...

John 8
17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

We could use that SAME concept.. With Paul and Yeshua or.. Technically the Father also and I' guessing you believe in the Trinity so.. It's 4 witnesses actually! Father, Son Holy Spirit AND Paul.

 

[shad]

I understand it would be hard for the OSAS and pre-trib believer, to comprehend the concepts of God's faithfulness, protection and preservation, if you are guaranteed a ticket to heaven no matter what. That said, if you do find yourself in the tribulation, don't ask to share the resources the post-tribbers have if you are unprepared - let God rapture you.

This is exactly what we have been trying to communicate in relationship to the salvation that God has provided by grace through Christ, but you refuse it. Do you comprehend the concept of God's faithfulness, protection and preservation of God's salvation to the believing sinner who has trusted Christ?

If you find yourself in the tribulation, get on your knees and repent of your unbelief, your religious spirit and contrived intellectualism by humbling yourelf as a little child and receive Christ and the kingdom of His dear Son.

 

[greatkraw]

Two free bits of advice for anyone stuck in the Tribulation

1 - Take care of and protect any Jew you know. (They got powerful friends)

2 - Under no circumstances even think of considering taking the Mark of the Beast on you right hand or forehead. IT IS FAR FAR BETTER TO DIE.

 

[watchmen]

Paul is one witness? Wow you are finally admitting that Paul preached the rapture! Let's see...
HMMM!! Think for a moment... Who inspired Paul to write this?

Of course Paul taught the raptrur that is not the question. The question is did he ever say that it occurs before the Tribulation, and the answer is no. Matter of fact Paul place the rapture at the last trump, and at the coming of Christ which both occur after the Tribulation, not before it.