Baptism Essential to Salvation

[Alligator]

Really? I asked you in post #811 to Please explain to us the difference between receiving the Holy Spirit and the baptism of the Holy Spirit/Spirit baptism.

Also explain to us the difference between ..the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 and ..the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:45.

I received NO answer from you. I asked you and Seabass multiple times in Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3 (still under the old law) if "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" means that baptism obtains the remission of sins or this baptism is done in regards to/on the basis of the remission of sins received upon repentance? and I also asked in Matthew 3:11 if, "I baptized you with water FOR repentance" means I baptize you with water "in order to obtain" repentance or "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Over and over again I received NO answers.

I personally think that refusing to deal with me because you think that I am a know it all is a cop out. At least I answer questions that you present to me and I harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusions on doctrine.

Regarding your question on Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, it means that baptism obtains the remission of sins. In Matthew 3:11,( as you know "ice" is used in both places), it is saying unto repentance is to obtain or to lead to repentance . Of course, John's primary purpose was to prepare the way for Christ.

 

[PleasureEden]

No...Baptism comes after salvation, a symbol, that we have died to ourself and are raised with Jesus.
And baptism is fully immersed.

 

[Kerry]

If you want to place your faith in your own work of baptism then so be it.

 

[Alligator]

No...Baptism comes after salvation, a symbol, that we have died to ourself and are raised with Jesus.
And baptism is fully immersed.

Not according to Acts 2:38, and Mark 16:15-16. Also, the scriptures do not say baptism is a symbol.

 

[Alligator]

If you want to place your faith in your own work of baptism then so be it.

it is not my own work, it is a command of Christ. If I truly believe in Christ, I will do what he said. It's an act of obedience.

 

[Kerry]

Then why weren't the twelve baptized?

 

[Alligator]

Then why weren't the twelve baptized?

We don't know that they weren't. We know Paul was. We don't even know that they all believed if we base that on it not being mentioned in the scriptures.

 

[mailmandan]

salvation is a process that starts when we are born again and ends when we die or Christ returns...While we are alive we are urged unto holiness. We can do nothing after we die.

Actually sanctification, not justification is a process. There are three tenses to salvation. We have been saved from the penalty of sin (Justification); we are being saved from the power of sin (Sanctification); we will be saved from the presence of sin (Glorification).

But when Christ returns he is coming for a church without spot or wrinkle.

The Church, the body of Christ, will be like to Christ's glorious body, and will shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father; and they will be completely conformed to the image of Christ, and enjoy uninterrupted communion with him, and have perfect knowledge of him; they will be always in his presence.

So as the scripture says we have to make our calling and election sure...
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected. bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT). For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. Romans 8:30 says, And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. All of them. In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[mailmandan]

Regarding your question on Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, it means that baptism obtains the remission of sins.

Quoting from a church of Christ website - So, the Old Law was in effect until Jesus died. But the thief was forgiven before Jesus died, while the first covenant was still in effect. The conditions he had to meet to be forgiven prove nothing about the conditions under which we are forgiven under the gospel. The case of the thief proves no more about how we should be saved than do David, Moses, Noah, or Abraham. These people lived under a different covenant. But the same is true of the thief. None of these people were required to believe what we do, nor were they required to be baptized like we are, because they did not live under the same covenant as we do. Only after He died and was raised did Jesus teach His disciples to take the message of salvation under the gospel to all mankind. That message was first preached as being in effect on Pentecost in Acts 2. This is the message that requires gospel faith and gospel baptism.

So if baptism was not necessary for salvation until Acts 2 (according to the church of Christ) then how is John teaching that water baptism is in order to obtain the remission of sins "necessary for salvation" (under the old law) prior to Acts 2? I see a contradiction here.

In Matthew 3:11, (as you know "ice" is used in both places), it is saying unto repentance is to obtain or to lead to repentance. Of course, John's primary purpose was to prepare the way for Christ.

Really? So John is baptizing people before they repent? Their baptism is in order to obtain repentance? Peter said to "repent and be baptized," in that order (Acts 2:38). Did John reverse the order of repentance and baptism? How does that make sense to baptize someone who has not yet repented but baptism will obtain or lead to repentance? Should we baptize unbelievers in order to obtain believers or lead them to becoming believers?

 

[mailmandan]

The subject of first clause has nothing to do with the subject of second clause.

The second clause clarifies the first clause.

The first clause deals with the subject of salvation and it is given two requirements: belief and baptism.

The second clause clarifies the first clause, so these are not two requirements. These are general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. As long as you are speaking of one who truly believes (trusts) in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation, you can most certainly say of him, "he shall be saved." Surely, if he that believes is not condemned (John 3:18), then he that believes and is baptized shall be eternally saved as well. *If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? - (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

The second clause deals with the different subject of condemnation and has only one requirement: unbelief.

And NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned.

No one can mix and match requirements for two the different subjects. Therefore unbelief is the only requirement necessary to be met to be condemned.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

And since Jesus made belief a PREREQUISITE to baptism that automatically means the unbeliever is unbaptized. Therefore in the Mk 16;16b, since the phrase "he that believeth not" ALREADY AUTOMATICALLY INCLUDES the unbaptized then it would be pointless and redundant for Jesus to say "he that believeth not and is not baptized due to his unbelief is condemned".

Your argument here is based on faulty human logic. Show me from scripture "baptized or condemned".

Therefore there is no such thing as a baptized unbeliever.

There most certainly is! There are many people who are not genuine believers but have been water baptized anyway. You are very naive to believe otherwise.

An unbeliever can be dipped in water and get all wet, but he is still lost and unbaptized according to Christ's own words.

Now you are saying an unbeliever can be dipped in water. That is still baptism. He is still lost if he does not believe. Genuine believers are saved and trust exclusively in Christ for salvation before, during and after water baptism.

Infants can be dipped but they are just getting wet for baptism does not do anything for an unbelieving infant - (which has no sins to be remitted anyway)

Infants and adults who do not believe are just getting wet.

You are STILL are ignoring the power of connective conjunction "and" that ties belief to baptism. You argument fails on many levels but fails here in your continued attempt to separate the two. Since the "and" joins the two making them BOTH of EQUAL IMPORTANCE AND NECESSITY Therefore if one need not be baptized to be saved then one need not believe either. Again, trying to mix or match qualification of the two different subjects cannot be done and cannot get rid of the "and".

I'm not trying to get rid of "and" (it makes no difference) because once again, Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" so condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism, so salvation rests on belief, which is in harmony with John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47, 11:25,26 which you continue to ignore. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:18; Acts 10:43) then he who believes and is baptized (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) will be saved as well.

Your argument is Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism.

Amen! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..
Why? Because he has not been water baptized? NO! Because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again unbelief = unbaptized.

False! Unbelief = does not believe in Jesus for salvation. We believe BEFORE we get water baptized.

You may have been dipped in water as an unbeliever but you were never biblically baptized as an unbeliever per Christ's own words.

Being immersed in water is still getting water baptized. The question is, were we a genuine believer or not when we got water baptized. If not, then we got water baptized for the wrong reason. Because you are trusting in water baptism (and not exclusively in Christ) to save you is the wrong reason. Baptized as an unbeliever is not Biblical baptism, but unbelievers are still immersed in water, just as believers are immersed in water. Baptism is like a marriage ceremony, like the receiving of rings as "tokens" of the covenant. The ring, like baptism, is not what actually unites the hearts of two people, but is the formal acknowledgment of it. If one gets water baptized, without first receiving Christ through believing in Him/faith, then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what he is not.

 

[mailmandan]

...and in this long post you never presented me with the verse that definitively says the "thief was never baptized". You can still only offer "possibly" or "maybe" and CLAIM your "maybes" and "possiblys" are "proof"

Since there is no verse that says the thief was baptized and the thief was crucified as a criminal, and along with the other man on the cross and the chief priests and elders, the thief blasphemed, mocked and shook his head at Jesus, that's proof enough for me. It is highly unlikely that the thief was previously a disciple of Christ who was water baptized. That is much stronger evidence than you have to prove otherwise. Extremely weak maybe vs. highly unlikely doesn't look good for your case at all.

Heb 6 and Peter denying Christ is NO DIFFERENT than your argument about the thief mocking Christ. The thief mocking CHrist cannot "prove" he was never a disciple no more than Peter denying Christ or those fallen Christians crucifying and putting to shame Christ proves they were never disciples.

Hebrews 6 says of these people that it's impossible to renew them again to repentance, so that falls flat in regards to your argument about the thief and Peter. The thief did more than just mock Him. He also blasphemed and shook his head at Jesus along with the chiefs priests and elders and the other man on the cross (they were all in the same boat together). But the thief later had a change of mind (repentance) placed his faith in Christ and was saved. Peter having a weak moment and temporarily denying Christ out of fear is not the same thing. Peter afterwards went out and wept bitterly. He did not turn to a life of crime. Big difference!

So far you have given your OPINION on whether the thief was baptized or not, no proof at all. Your opinion is not proof no how much you claim it is.

Matthew 27:39 And those who passed by blasphemed Him, wagging their heads 40 and saying, "You who destroy the temple and build it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross." 41 Likewise the chief priests also, mocking with the scribes and elders, said, 42 "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He is the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe Him. 43 He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now if He will have Him; for He said, 'I am the Son of God.' " 44 Even the robbers who were crucified with Him reviled Him with the same thing.

You call that the fruit of repentance/faith? Fruit of being a disciple who was water baptized? Yeah right!

One of the robbers continued to blaspheme Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." (Luke 23:39).

Yet the other thief repented and believed - Luke 23:40 answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

These are strong words that demonstrate that your argument is highly unlikely. I have these scriptures which is more than simply my opinion. You have a highly unlikely argument based on your opinion. I have a highly likely argument based on scripture.

 

[newbirth]

Actually sanctification, not justification is a process. There are three tenses to salvation. We have been saved from the penalty of sin (Justification); we are being saved from the power of sin (Sanctification); we will be saved from the presence of sin (Glorification).

you see how your knowledge separates and divides the work of God. Can you show a divider or a marker in your life showing such? From the time you are born again it becomes a work in progress.

The Church, the body of Christ, will be like to Christ's glorious body, and will shine as the sun in the kingdom of their Father; and they will be completely conformed to the image of Christ, and enjoy uninterrupted communion with him, and have perfect knowledge of him; they will be always in his presence.

yes but who is he coming for?...
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected. bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of and assurance of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT). For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. Romans 8:30 says, And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. All of them. In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

How do you make sure you have been called and elected? You are walking backwards...God Has called us to be saints and we must walk worthy of that calling. We are not walking this way to make sure God has call or elected us. We are walking this way because we don't want to fall and this is what Christ is looking for when he comes. To say that these things are not the basis of salvation, would indicate that if we don't do them we are still sure of our calling and election. The scripture says if we do them we will never fall, I am thinking the opposite is also true...if we don't do them we will always fall. The big question is where are we falling from and falling to.

I don't know if you don't understand or you are deliberately twisting the word to conform to a particular doctrine.
What is strange though is how everyone wants to be predistinate,called elected ,justified and glorified but they don't want to be conformed to the image of Christ
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

 

[mailmandan]

I don't know if you don't understand or you are deliberately twisting the word to conform to a particular doctrine.

Do you not believe that Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification are three different tenses to salvation? For by grace, we have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Is that a past event with ongoing present results or a process to become saved?

What is strange though is how everyone wants to be predestinate,called elected ,justified and glorified but they don't want to be conformed to the image of Christ.

Who said they didn't want to be conformed to the image of Christ? All the efforts to conform to the image of Christ without first being justified by faith are futile.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

Amen! This is what we are saved FOR. And how does that negate ..and whom He justified, these He also glorified? (vs. 30).

 

[newbirth]

Do you not believe that Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification are three different tenses to salvation? For by grace, we have been saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Is that a past event with ongoing present results or a process to become saved?

Well you said it yourself....a process you can't take apart what God has joined...It is called salvation

Who said they didn't want to be conformed to the image of Christ? All the efforts to conform to the image of Christ without first being justified by faith are futile.

Exactly all the focus on what God did and little or non on what we ought to do...no balance...

Amen! This is what we are saved FOR. And how does that negate ..and whom He justified, these He also glorified? (vs. 30)

.
It does not but it shows the balance...God is good at what he does ...we are the ones who need to practice doing what he says.
If God says you are justified and you keep on sinning are you not making him a liar? If God says you are sanctified and your actions are unholy are you not making him a liar? If God says you are glorified and he comes to redeem you and not justified and sanctified do you think you will be glorified? In His eyes we are all these things because He has given us all the power to become sons of God. If we are not conformed to the image of Christ when he comes he will say depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you...

Let God be true and every man a liar...

 

[newbirth]

There most certainly is! There are many people who are not genuine believers but have been water baptized anyway. You are very naive to believe otherwise.

but they are not baptised into Christ are they? that could not be possible.

Now you are saying an unbeliever can be dipped in water. That is still baptism. He is still lost if he does not believe. Genuine believers are saved and trust exclusively in Christ for salvation before, during and after water baptism.

baptism of what for what to receive what.

I'm not trying to get rid of "and" (it makes no difference) because once again, Jesus clarifies the first clause with "but he who does not believe will be condemned" so condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism, so salvation rests on belief, which is in harmony with John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47, 11:25,26 which you continue to ignore. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:18; Acts 10:43) then he who believes and is baptized (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) will be saved as well.

And so you have rewritten the word. the same logic applied, he who believes and is baptised will be saved cannot mean he who believes and is not baptised will be saved. Then why mention baptism in the first place if you are not saved by it,and you are still saved without it.

Amen! John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..
Why? Because he has not been water baptized? NO! Because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I don't get it...you believed and was baptised. the reason you got baptised is because you believed. If you did not believe would you have been baptised? Why were you eager to be baptised? You don't see men who don't believe running around begging to be baptised into Christ for the remission of sins do you?

False! Unbelief = does not believe in Jesus for salvation. We believe BEFORE we get water baptized.

Being immersed in water is still getting water baptized. The question is, were we a genuine believer or not when we got water baptized. If not, then we got water baptized for the wrong reason. Because you are trusting in water baptism (and not exclusively in Christ) to save you is the wrong reason. Baptized as an unbeliever is not Biblical baptism, but unbelievers are still immersed in water, just as believers are immersed in water. Baptism is like a marriage ceremony, like the receiving of rings as "tokens" of the covenant. The ring, like baptism, is not what actually unites the hearts of two people, but is the formal acknowledgment of it. If one gets water baptized, without first receiving Christ through believing in Him/faith, then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what he is not.

I am thinking when we say baptised we mean baptism of repentance for the remission of sins and to receive the holy Spirit. If one is not thought the proper doctrine how can he believe the way he ought to?

So to say being immersed in water is still getting water baptised is babbling, because if it is not according to the word it is not of God. Who is he being baptised into?

 

[mailmandan]

Well you said it yourself....a process you can't take apart what God has joined...It is called salvation

It sounds like you are confusing Justification with Sanctification. This is a common error made by works salvationists.

Exactly all the focus on what God did and little or non on what we ought to do...no balance...

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). That is the balance. Salvation by works is out of balance. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Because we are saved, not to become saved.

It does not but it shows the balance...God is good at what he does ...we are the ones who need to practice doing what he says. If God says you are justified and you keep on sinning are you not making him a liar? If God says you are sanctified and your actions are unholy are you not making him a liar? If God says you are glorified and he comes to redeem you and not justified and sanctified do you think you will be glorified? In His eyes we are all these things because He has given us all the power to become sons of God. If we are not conformed to the image of Christ when he comes he will say depart from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you...

John speaks about this - 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

If we are trusting in our works for salvation instead of trusting in Christ alone for salvation when He comes (Matthew 7:22) then He will say depart from me works of iniquity I never knew you (Matthew 7:23).

Let God be true and every man a liar...

Romans 3:4. Now read Romans 3:22-28.

 

[mailmandan]

but they are not baptised into Christ are they? that could not be possible.

Unbelievers are neither baptized by one Spirit into one body.. (1 Corinthians 12:13) nor baptized into identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. They simply get wet trusting in the mechanical act of baptism to save them and not exclusively in Christ.

baptism of what for what to receive what.

Spirit baptism places us into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13). Water baptism is done "in regards to, on the basis of" the sins that are remitted upon repentance/believing in Him (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 10:43-47).

So to say being immersed in water is still getting water baptised is babbling, because if it is not according to the word it is not of God. Who is he being baptised into?

For unbelievers, they are declaring to be in baptism what they are not. They are neither baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ or baptized into identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. They are simply unbelieving wet sinners.

 

[Alligator]

Quoting from a church of Christ website - So, the Old Law was in effect until Jesus died. But the thief was forgiven before Jesus died, while the first covenant was still in effect. The conditions he had to meet to be forgiven prove nothing about the conditions under which we are forgiven under the gospel. The case of the thief proves no more about how we should be saved than do David, Moses, Noah, or Abraham. These people lived under a different covenant. But the same is true of the thief. None of these people were required to believe what we do, nor were they required to be baptized like we are, because they did not live under the same covenant as we do. Only after He died and was raised did Jesus teach His disciples to take the message of salvation under the gospel to all mankind. That message was first preached as being in effect on Pentecost in Acts 2. This is the message that requires gospel faith and gospel baptism.

So if baptism was not necessary for salvation until Acts 2 (according to the church of Christ) then how is John teaching that water baptism is in order to obtain the remission of sins "necessary for salvation" (under the old law) prior to Acts 2? I see a contradiction here.



Really? So John is baptizing people before they repent? Their baptism is in order to obtain repentance? Peter said to "repent and be baptized," in that order (Acts 2:38). Did John reverse the order of repentance and baptism? How does that make sense to baptize someone who has not yet repented but baptism will obtain or lead to repentance? Should we baptize unbelievers in order to obtain believers or lead them to becoming believers?

You have to remember that this was a time of transition. That is, between the Old Testament and New Testament. John's baptism was never intended to last but for a short time in preparation of Christ. Once the Great Commission was issued, John's baptism was no longer valid. John's baptism was somewhat unique. Just as it was unique for Christ to forgive sins while on earth (Mark 2:10). Same thing with the thief on the cross.

That being said, it says John baptized unto repentance and for the remission of sins ( or toward obtaining repentance. You can read it as well as I can and we can argue and speculate all night long and never have the complete truth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.



The cloud and the sea here are symbolic of spirit and water.

 

[newbirth]

It sounds like you are confusing Justification with Sanctification. This is a common error made by works salvationists.

No confusion
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. (works involved in justification)

If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.(works involved in sanctification)

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works (James 2:14-24). That is the balance. Salvation by works is out of balance. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Because we are saved, not to become saved.

You keep saying to get saved which is really stupid (not wanting to be disrespectful) we are already saved ! and made a new creature created unto good works. If we are created unto good works and there is no works something is very wrong.

John speaks about this - 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

How do you practice righteousness? If the practice of unrighteousness is doing evil works... then the practice of righteousness is doing good works.

If we are trusting in our works for salvation instead of trusting in Christ alone for salvation when He comes (Matthew 7:22) then He will say depart from me works of iniquity I never knew you (Matthew 7:23).

Romans 3:4. Now read Romans 3:22-28

.

So you are saying if I do good I don't trust Christ.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.