No trust in Creation...no trust in Genesis....no trust in Scriptures...

[Pottyone]

What about you answering my question Jack, how do you reconcile your position with Roman5:12-19.
one more question Jack, I know its personal but I can't remember whether or not you trust in Jesus Christ as your saviour? I can't tell from your postings. Is that deliberate on your part or have I just failed to pick up on it.i believe it is pertinent to this thread given my original posting.

Creationists who claim that the earth is 6000 years old and that dinosaurs coexisted with humans probably deserve to be mocked.

Hovind has said that dinosaurs exist today.

When a dinosaur is discovered and I can go see it in the zoo, I'll apologize for saying Hovind is a convict, even though he is.

Of course I could go to Ham's museum in Kentucky, stand next to a dinosaur, pretend it's real, and scream.

Is that where you are taking the family for R & R? Dude, don't let the kids feed T. rex.

 

[Elin]

Thus one of four positions arises:

1. The natural method is against God, and the natural method is true, thus God is false.

2. The natural method is against God, and the natural method is false, thus God is true.

3. The natural method is in no contradiction to God, thus, the bible is mistranslated, allegorical rather than literal.

4. All of this, arguments born of animosity, are irrelevent compared to the present human situation.

The fourth position is mine. But to balance scales and share that, to instill a focus on solutions rather than problems, things have to be seen like they are. The world is billions of years old. The bible is mistranslated, or at least literalism is held too firm by those who propagandise it. Both spiritualism and science are of whole benefit to man if he would embrace them and create solutions, from them, and finally, solutions are what we need.

Your contra-Biblical views are not acceptable to a thorough knowledge of and belief in the Bible.

The Bible is not "spiritualism," it is "God-breathed" (2Tim 3:16) special revelation
which mankind has no other way of knowing without it.

Jesus did not come to improve the natural life of man.
He came to open the way to God by paying the penalty for the sin of those who believe in him.

Your human views are not an addition to, rather they are a subtraction from, God's truth.

 

[Esanta]

Well you see perhaps this is the real crux of the matter....I believe and trust in the One true, Living, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God who I believe, by faith, is capable of doing all of this. I accept that biblical exegesis is not part of the scientific method as you define it...and that's just fine with me but don't let that lead you to believe that Christians are de facto not interested in truth. You see you and I both know that science can only test the testable. It is stuck in a moment in time...presented with the physical evidence of that moment in time. Any attempt to step outside of that time frame is a step of faith as it involves speculation (scientists probably prefer theword extrapolation) based on current observable testable evidence.
We all have baggage....every human being has an agenda, formed by who we are, our experiences of life and our consciences also. But we must all accept that added to that are external spiritual forces of which we understand very little. That's where our souls drive who we are...much I suppose like the nucleus of a cell. That soul is impacted on at a higher level where God and Satan do "battle" ( in a conflict who's outcome is already determined. As human beings we havea default position of "born in sin and sharpen in iniquity". That's who we are cut and dried and therefore our basic agenda is warped, out of kilter with reality.
its only when we are born again by the in dwelling of the Holy Spirit that we begin to come ack into a right sense of perspective and understanding. Our eyes become opened as we grow from a spiritual baby and e come more and more like Christ, this is the work of theHoly Spirit in us.
i don't expect you to agree with me on this Esanta and I suppose that is entirely how it is.
In reality we can banter back and forth for the rest of our lives and never come to agreement because we see things with different eyes...in different light if you like.
im not sure what "faith" you profess to belong to, that's not even important because our words and actions speak volumes for what we have faith in, but I would implore you to give The Lord Jesus's words, serious consideration..."I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through me."
Some final questions for you my friend.....What is life? What is that spark that separates the living from the dead?
have you ever lost someone you love? Have you ever watch someone die? I have, both my parents died before my eyes. They were very strange experiences. One second they are there with you the very next gone, yet nothing happened, they were just gone. Their spirit was removed from their physical bodies and "they" had left this scene of time forever. Just a change in chemical reactions?
Likewise at the other end of "life" what makes a seed grow, what makes two gametes form a new life? What organises the structure of a cell with its irreducible complexity? Why would it even ever happen?
i wish you well Esanta, I really do but I recognise that without Christ and the leading of His Holy Spirit, we may ne'er find our viewpoints reconciled, yours has too many unanswered holes in it and mine is as you rightly state untestable byte "scientific method"....just as it should be too.

Okay, yes, to a certain extent, scientists do 'speculate', but they speculate upon laws based on the the nature of matter, or of energy; if these weren't what they are, our universe wouldn't be what it is. Insinuating things like 'the laws of physics don't apply' and using terms like 'science as you define it' (when science as 'I define it' is actually how 'science' is defined) puts us in a position where we can say anything is true. I can say anything is true if the laws of physics don't apply, if the foundations of our Earth only work now. But anybody who understands these principles understands how infallible they are. Matter can't not be matter, because if it's not matter, it's free energy, etc etc.

All Earth is matter and free energy. There's nothing in or on this Earth that isn't.

People have plenty of definitions of life. A scientific definition is to do with metabolism, growth, response to stimuli. But if you want to know what the 'spark' of life is, what 'stops' when we die? That would be the exchange of electrons within cells; metabolism or respiration.

A religious definition? That could be whatever you want it to be, depending on your religion.

A personal definition? Everyone has one.

 

[Esanta]

Your contra-Biblical views are not acceptable to a thorough knowledge of and belief in the Bible.

The Bible is not "spiritualism," it is "God-breathed" (2Tim 3:16) special revelation
which mankind has no other way of knowing without it.

Jesus did not come to improve the natural life of man.
He came to open the way to God by paying the penalty for the sin of those who believe in him.

Your human views are not an addition to, rather they are a subtraction from, God's truth.

You're just as human as me. Don't be self-righteous.

Spiritualism: ''the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter''

That, in a nutshell, is basically what pottytone was saying.

 

[Pottyone]

Okay, yes, to a certain extent, scientists do 'speculate', but they speculate upon laws based on the the nature of matter, or of energy; if these weren't what they are, our universe wouldn't be what it is. Insinuating things like 'the laws of physics don't apply' and using terms like 'science as you define it' (when science as 'I define it' is actually how 'science' is defined) puts us in a position where we can say anything is true. I can say anything is true if the laws of physics don't apply, if the foundations of our Earth only work now. But anybody who understands these principles understands how infallible they are. Matter can't not be matter, because if it's not matter, it's free energy, etc etc.

All Earth is matter and free energy. There's nothing in or on this Earth that isn't.

People have plenty of definitions of life. A scientific definition is to do with metabolism, growth, response to stimuli. But if you want to know what the 'spark' of life is, what 'stops' when we die? That would be the exchange of electrons within cells; metabolism or respiration.

A religious definition? That could be whatever you want it to be, depending on your religion.

A personal definition? Everyone has one.

Hi Esanta, thanks for your mannerly reply. You know I wonder why it is that we get so angry when we are debating this topic..perhaps its because we are so passionate about the philosophical implications of our respective positions, I suppose that's as it should be.
with regard to he "spark of life".....what do you suppose might cause the flow of electrons to suddenly start or stop do you think...it certainly intrigues me. After all it must involve a very complex and huge number of simultaneously occurring exchanges of electrons either starting or stopping to bring about life and death.
as I am a religious man, I can definitely identify the appearance of life with a supernatural external creation event, what about yourself. Perhaps this is a more useful and interesting issue rather than the evolution/creation debate. After all at least this is a time present event that science should be able to test evidence of here and now, without speculating on events which happen outside of a testable time frame....what do you think?
with regards to God and His power, I would argue that its not that the "laws of physics" do not apply to "normal...(natural life). Clearly they do generally speaking but what we are talking about in creation and other miraculous events are situations which by their very essence are "supernatural". They are caused by the one who sets the laws of physics, and does so in a certain way because He chose to...I don't know why He chose things to happen the way He did but He was the designer and creator of everything and decided to do things in a certain way. This does not preclude His ability, at any time of His choosing to step outside of what we see to be "natural laws" to do something different. This is surely what He did when He raised Christ from the dead, parted the Red Sea, etc etc....we call these things miracles and accept that they are not things that we can test, replicate or explain scientifically. So that seems just as it should be to me and when The Lord calls me home at the end of my time, my soul will be transported by The Lord to Heaven, which I will freely admit is not scientifically testable either...but there it is...that's my faith and I suppose it just goes to prove that there are many things that just have to accept on faith.

 

[Elin]

Your contra-Biblical views are not acceptable to a thorough knowledge of and belief in the Bible.

The Bible is not "spiritualism," it is "God-breathed" (2Tim 3:16) special revelation
which mankind has no other way of knowing without it.

Jesus did not come to improve the natural life of man.
He came to open the way to God by paying the penalty for the sin of those who believe in him.

Your human views are not an addition to, rather they are a subtraction from, God's truth.

You're just as human as me. Don't be self-righteous.

I neither stated nor implied any righteousness due to my self.

Spiritualism: ''the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter''

Spiritualism is not just a doctrine.
It is also a practice.

And it has nothing to do with the God of the Bible.

 

[Fishbait]

Anyone who professes faith in Jesus should oppose the satanic belief in evolution.

"Often, people challenge biblical creationists with comments along the lines of, “I believe God created, and I don’t believe in evolution, but He could have taken billions of years, so what’s the big deal about the age of the earth?” Some claim that an emphasis on ‘6 literal days, 6,000 years ago’ even keeps people away from the faith, so “Why be so dogmatic? Why emphasize something so strongly that’s not a salvation issue?”

Why? Did God create over billions of years - creation.com

 

[jdbear]

"Often, people challenge biblical creationists with comments along the lines of, “I believe God created, and I don’t believe in evolution, but He could have taken billions of years, so what’s the big deal about the age of the earth?” Some claim that an emphasis on ‘6 literal days, 6,000 years ago’ even keeps people away from the faith, so “Why be so dogmatic? Why emphasize something so strongly that’s not a salvation issue. Why?

Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days in the grave?

 

[4enlightment]

https://answersingenesis.org/dinosa...s-live/what-really-happened-to-the-dinosaurs/

 

[Truthfinder55]

Pottyone: I agree hole heartedly it is the foundation of the belief in God. It is the duty of the evolutionist to take God out of the question of the origen of man. First they had to make the world what it is not and conform it to their model. One of the lies they tried to sell us in the school system and on tv that we are on a wold that is a globe spinning around a sun in a solar system of other globes on the edge of a galaxy in a univierse of trillions of other galaxies. So we are shown as an insignificant spec in an infinet universe of insignificant specs. In reality we live in a world the the sun moon and stars evolve around and we are the center of the universe, we live on a flat earth the south pole srounds the hole land mass and the north pole is in the center. Now I know you are laughing at this point but before you write me off I challenge you to check out this truth. Nasa the govenment and hollywood have been pulling a fast one on the hole world and it is time we wake up and just don't take what we are told to be a fact without checking it out first.

 

[valiant]

Recently I have been doing some street work with young folks and a constant theme with them, is that they are bombarded in school, college and the media in general ( see EVERY NATURAL HISTORY PROGRAM ON THE TV) with the theory that the world evolved. This leads them then to diss any idea of a creation based history of the world and therefore a disbelief in the book of Genesis as the truth of God's word. Once you compromise on Genesis, you compromise on the basic principles of our faith....sin entering the world as a result of man's disobedience, death as a result of sin, mans separation from God and the need for salvation, Satan as a reality, marriage between a man and a women etc.
In My opinion a rejection of creation is possibly Satan's greatest achievement and one which he has successfully propagated throughout history......
Many Christians state that A belief in Creation is not something to get too "worked up about" as it is not really a "salvation matter"......I beg to differ. It is possibly the biggest stumbling block to the non christians ability to see their need for Salvation ......
evolution is Satanic in origin and must be tackled everywhere it is encountered!!

Are you sure you are British? I have witnessed in the UK for 65 years and I have never found the question of Genesis origins to be more than a minor problem. Most people are willing to accept that God created the world and that man is sinful. Perhaps it is your approach which is at fault? If you start off with Genesis, surely you are asking for trouble? Start at the place which people are willing to accept.

If I was witnessing and started off arguing about the theory of evolution I would think myself a dimwit. I prefer to start with Jesus Christ, and stick mainly to the New Testament.

Once a person is firmly saved, then the question of origins can be raised. Until then it is the important things that must be stressed, things that are really necessary for salvation.

I notice that the poll was worded so that many who were not seven day creationists would say 'yes' because they see God as the Creator.

 

[Tintin]

Pottyone: I agree hole heartedly it is the foundation of the belief in God. It is the duty of the evolutionist to take God out of the question of the origen of man. First they had to make the world what it is not and conform it to their model. One of the lies they tried to sell us in the school system and on tv that we are on a wold that is a globe spinning around a sun in a solar system of other globes on the edge of a galaxy in a univierse of trillions of other galaxies. So we are shown as an insignificant spec in an infinet universe of insignificant specs. In reality we live in a world the the sun moon and stars evolve around and we are the center of the universe, we live on a flat earth the south pole srounds the hole land mass and the north pole is in the center. Now I know you are laughing at this point but before you write me off I challenge you to check out this truth. Nasa the govenment and hollywood have been pulling a fast one on the hole world and it is time we wake up and just don't take what we are told to be a fact without checking it out first.

I don't believe evolution is the answer but your beliefs in a flat earth etc. are very worrying. Especially since the majority of flat-earthers are atheists.

 

[flob]

Elohim (plural noun) said (singular verb?) Let Us (plural pronoun) make (singular verb?) man in Our image...

For the Hebrew or language students, is that correct?
And if so, does that mean that Moses' sentence is ungrammatical, incorrect according to the Hebrew?

I 'don't mind' either way, since I believe The One God is Triune, who created heavens, earth, and us.
I just wondered if it's accurate to call Moses' sentence ungrammatical Hebrew?
If it is, that makes it all the more emphatic, if you know what I mean.

 

[valiant]

Elohim (plural noun) said (singular verb?) Let Us (plural pronoun) make (singular verb?) man in Our image...

For the Hebrew or language students, is that correct?

nope. plural of majesty noun singular verb plural verb (inc pronoun) (let us make)

This suggests that He means let us (court of heaven) make man in our image (the image of the Elohim - of heavenly beings). In other words man has a spirit like the angels.

And if so, does that mean that Moses' sentence is ungrammatical, incorrect according to the Hebrew?

nope.

I 'don't mind' either way, since I believe The One God is Triune, who created heavens, earth, and us.
I just wondered if it's accurate to call Moses' sentence ungrammatical Hebrew?
If it is, that makes it all the more emphatic, if you know what I mean.

its not ungrammatical.

 

[valiant]

All Earth is matter and free energy. There's nothing in or on this Earth that isn't.

now how can anyone possibly know that? If you had said nothing physical on earth you might have been nearer to the truth.

People have plenty of definitions of life. A scientific definition is to do with metabolism, growth, response to stimuli.

But not even the greatest scientist knows what life is or where it comes from

But if you want to know what the 'spark' of life is, what 'stops' when we die? That would be the exchange of electrons within cells; metabolism or respiration.

pure speculation without an atom of proof. !!

 

[Truthfinder55]

I don't believe evolution is the answer but your beliefs in you a flat earth etc. are very worrying. Especially since the majority of flat-earthers are atheists.

The evolutionist or atheists are the ones that brought in the idea of planets. If you look into any telescope all anyone can see is a light no planitary body's. Its just a theory no prof. God said he put the sun, moon and stars in the heavens for times, season's and signs. It's a clockwork.

 

[kedge]

So very true and spot on, once the penny drops the truth really does set one free.

 

[valiant]

The evolutionist or atheists are the ones that brought in the idea of planets. If you look into any telescope all anyone can see is a light no planitary body's. Its just a theory no prof. God said he put the sun, moon and stars in the heavens for times, season's and signs. It's a clockwork.

so you think that all the space vehicles that land on planets and comets are fakes?

 

[Truthfinder55]

so you think that all the space vehicles that land on planets and comets are fakes?

Yes they have never left the earth atmosphere never all b.s.

 

[Tintin]

The evolutionist or atheists are the ones that brought in the idea of planets. If you look into any telescope all anyone can see is a light no planitary body's. Its just a theory no prof. God said he put the sun, moon and stars in the heavens for times, season's and signs. It's a clockwork.

Oh, boy. I don't know what to say.