ONCE saved always saved!.

[SeaBass]

Yes, Paul was enabled by the Spirit of God to do the work that He did. Paul could not do this without God. That's the whole point I am getting at. Paul was not claiming credit for himself.

In fact, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.


Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10 KJV
Hebrews 12:1, 2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22, 23, 24 (cf. Matthew 7:16, 18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26, 27


For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.


Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For as I said before, in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not. Don't believe me? Just do a study on all of the verses above in prayer and you will see. Ask the Lord to show you the truth on this, and He will show it to you (Jeremiah 33:3).

Paul was given miraculous abilities as an apostle. Men today do not need the miraculous to take the gospel to the world as Paul. Paul did not have the complete written word of God as we today do so he, and others, were given inspiration to being about the complete written word of God.


God works in those that obey Him, Phil 1:5 and has vengeance upon those that obey not, 2 Thess 1:8.

The Christian must choose to do good works and has both the ability and responsibility to do good works and will be held accountable for lack of good works. There is no verse that says God does all the work while men sit and do nothing. Had Paul chosen not to obey the gospel and become a Christian and disobey in doing what God said, he would have been lost.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is written, faith without works is no faith at all. Anyone who has received the gift of faith receives it with a great outpouring of the Love of Yahweh, God. We immediately seek to show our gratitude in love, knowing there is nothing we can do that our Father needs, but we can do things that please Him.

Do not fool yourself or others in thinking works is always on the scale of the Apostles. Works come in so many forms, and they are not so impossible to understand. There are the works of prayer, helping others, love, patience, longsuffering, sharing the joys and pains of our family in Jesus, Yeshua. There is one work many overlook, but we all know it and do it, and that is waiting on the Lord.

No one is earning Salvation by works, but all please the Father, and all who believe do works by their new nature. Pass it on.

 

[Jason0047]

That would be works of the law ....What other works could do that?

The translation you use takes away the power and impact of what it says in the KJV.

Ananias said to Paul,

"...arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16 KJV).

In other words, Ananias was not saying that baptism was washing away his sins, but he was telling Paul that his calling upon the name of the Lord would wash away his sins. For the Scriptures say, who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13). The Scriptures also say that, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

 

[SeaBass]

Okay a 10,000 dollar question as seen on the other thread. Show from scripture where any of the twelve were baptized in water or Even Paul.

Paul was water baptized Acts 22:16

The other apostles would have been baptized with John's baptism, even though the bible does not explicitly state it. If they were not baptized then they were rejecting God's counsel, Lk 7:30 and would not have been following Christ's example in being baptized and would not have been disciples of Christ.

Jn 4:1,2 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Jesus' disciples were baptizing. In the Christ's great commission Jesus commissioned His disciples to go teach and make disciples by baptizing. Disciples were made by baptizing, so how could the apostles be disciples and teach baptism if they were not baptized themselves?

 

[SeaBass]

Again, your putting the cart (works) before the horse (salvation).

Works and a life of holiness always follows salvation.

Jesus accomplished salvation for us. So all we have to do is receive His free gift (Which is by repenting (confessing) of our sins and in accepting Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior - Believing He died for our sins upon the cross, was in the tomb 3 days, and then rose from the grave). From there, if you sin, you confess that sin, and continue to abide in the Lord.

Repentance or Confession is not a work because it is in trusting in God that He will forgive you. It is in throwing yourself upon the mercy of God and taking it by faith that He will forgive you. There is no major effort in repentance. There is no set appointed time that you have to arrange your schedule to repent or sweat and or work hard at repenting. The same is true of accepting Jesus and believing in the gospel. Repentance, acceptance of Christ, and believing the gospel is not like a job. For Jesus said His burden was light. There is no real effort in repentance. In fact, God is the One who grants us repentance (2 Timothy 2:25).



We are not saved by works. It is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-9). For we are not saved by righteous works that we have done, but by his mercy, and the washing and renewing of the Holy Ghost (Titus 3:5). For Mark 16:16 is not saying baptism is for salvation. Peter already clears up that confusion in Peter 3:21 when he says we are saved not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. Paul mentions how we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh (2 Corinthians 7:1). Both Paul and Peter were not talking about taking a bath.

There is not a single verse where one was told to "do nothing and thou shalt be saved"
In Acts 2, Peter's hearers asked Peter "what shall we do" Peter did not tell them to do nothing but commanded them to repent and be baptized.

To be saved one must believe, Jn 8;24; repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Mt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism for remission of sins. These are all works that must come BEFROE being saved. For anyone to imply these works comes AFTER one is already saved then one is implying the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ in his unwashed sins is saved.

Peter said baptism remits sins/saves in Acts 2:38. He said baptism saves in 1 Pet 3:21 and Peter does not contradict himself.

 

[Jason0047]

We are saved not by the righteous works that we have done by his mercy He saved us and by the renewing and washing of the HolyGhost (Titus 3:5). For...

"Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:2-3).

In other words, we are made perfect by walking after the Spirit. Does that mean we sin? No. Paul says, there is no Condemnation in Christ Jesus who walk after the Spirits and not after the flesh (Romans 8:1). Paul also answers the question that can we sin with the words, God forbid. For Paul says, We establish the Law. Not the OT Law (Which was fulfilled in Christ) (Hebrews 8:13), but the New Testament Laws or Commands; Which is the Law of love: To love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. For love fulfills the Law.

 

[Jason0047]

There is not a single verse where one was told to "do nothing and thou shalt be saved"
In Acts 2, Peter's hearers asked Peter "what shall we do" Peter did not tell them to do nothing but commanded them to repent and be baptized.

To be saved one must believe, Jn 8;24; repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Mt 10:32,33 and submit to baptism for remission of sins. These are all works that must come BEFROE being saved. For anyone to imply these works comes AFTER one is already saved then one is implying the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ in his unwashed sins is saved.

Peter said baptism remits sins/saves in Acts 2:38. He said baptism saves in 1 Pet 3:21 and Peter does not contradict himself.

We both believe works are necessary for a faith to be true. So the end result is still the same. As I said before, I believe James when he says that faith is dead without works. I believe the writer of Hebrews when he essentially says, that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. So please stop saying I don't believe we can do nothing as believers. That is simply not true. A true believer will naturally do those things for God because He is born again spiritually. See, this is the key difference between us. It's not that we disagree that works and holiness is necessary for a true faith, but we disagree on whether or not works actually saves you or not. I believe Jesus saves us and that works flow from that savlation. You believe Jesus does not save you entirely and that you have to also do works to save yourself. Therein lies the difference between us. Yes, we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But this is in reference to making sure we abide in Christ and repent of our sins (So as to be cleansed) so as to continue our walk with Him. For Jesus Christ is the source of salvation (1 John 5:12). Salvation is not in anything you do. What you do as a believer is the after effect of being cleansed by Jesus Christ. Your heart and life is brand new in Jesus Christ if you are born again and if you allow God to live within you.

 

[Jason0047]

Paul was water baptized Acts 22:16

The other apostles would have been baptized with John's baptism, even though the bible does not explicitly state it. If they were not baptized then they were rejecting God's counsel, Lk 7:30 and would not have been following Christ's example in being baptized and would not have been disciples of Christ.

Jn 4:1,2 "When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Jesus' disciples were baptizing. In the Christ's great commission Jesus commissioned His disciples to go teach and make disciples by baptizing. Disciples were made by baptizing, so how could the apostles be disciples and teach baptism if they were not baptized themselves?

I was water baptized, too. Doesn't mean it saved me, my friend.

Jesus saved me. It was not in the ritual that symbolizes his death and resurrection.

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3).

Cornelius and His Household

In the example of Cornelius and his household (Acts 10), they listened to Peter preach to them about Jesus and that He was who all the prophets spoke of--His life, death and resurrection--and that whoever believes in Him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43) The passage recounts how, before Peter could even baptize them, they all received the Holy Spirit after believing. (Acts 10:44) However, there are some who challenge that by saying, "Well, they were 'immediately' baptized." Would God have removed His Spirit from them if the baptism had been performed hours or days later? No. The Holy Spirit is an abiding presence. (John 14:16). The timing was important here for several reasons. The Mosaic Law had been a wall between Jews and Gentiles, but that wall had been broken down at the cross. The "Judaizers" contended that the Gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the Law in order to be accepted by God and come into the church. At the council at Jerusalem (Acts 15), it was brought out that none of these things were required of the Gentile converts; the Gentiles had heard the Gospel from Peter's mouth, they had believed and they were saved by grace through faith, not by the works of the Law, such as circumcision. (Acts. 15:7-9) We see that the giving of the Spirit was not dependent on any physical requirement of the Law, including the physical act of baptism (Note: This does not mean Christians can abide in sin that leads unto death, such as murder, hate, lying, etc.). Anyways, Cornelius and his household did, after all, receive God's Spirit prior to baptism. So this incident shows that it wasn't baptism that saved Cornelius and his household (or what caused them to receive or keep the Holy Spirit). Their baptism that followed only gave evidence that they had already been baptized by the Holy Spirit and were saved.

Samaritans Who Believed

Why did those Samaritans who believed and were baptized in an outward ceremony (Acts 8:12) not receive the Holy Spirit? When the apostles heard that they received the Word of God, they sent Peter and John unto them, to pray for them, "that they might receive the Holy Spirit." (Acts 8:14-16). These Samaritans did not receive the Spirit when they were baptized because God wanted the Samaritan believers to be united with the original Jewish church in Jerusalem. It served the purpose of confirming Philip's teaching among the Samaritans and authenticated their work to the apostles in Jerusalem.

Source:
Do We Only Receive the Holy Spirit As a Result of Baptism?

 

[Jason0047]

without him we can do nothing...and with him you are still doing nothing...He said you will bear fruit

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Like I said before. I am not denying that a true believer will have works within their life. For I believe James when he says faith without works is dead. You don't seem to be understandingj that. Let me say it one more time. I believe James when he says faith without works is dead. The key difference between us is not that we are in disagreement about a true believer should have much fruit, the difference between us is that I believe Jesus saves me and you believe

Jesus + ____(Insert your name here)____ or your works saves you.

We both believe works are necessary for the true believer's life.
No disagreement on that point.
But how we both acheived salvation is completely two different ways.

Yours salvation is Christ + Legalism.
My salvation is simply Jesus Christ.

 

[Jason0047]

If works proceed out of faith then faith without works would be impossible...thus making James a liar...God gives us faith we have to do the works ...it's a choice if you don't do the works your faith is dead.(ineffective ) and we are saved by grace through faith...but a dead faith will not work

When a believer sins and refuses to repent, they are cut off from God and they need to renew themselves by confession or repentance back to the Lord. James sermon was to get them to repent of their sin of thinking wrongly about faith (i.e. easy believism). These believers needed to be cleansed again so that they could allow God or Christ to work within their lives. That was James goal. To get them to repent. For repentance to God would allow the Lord to help do the good work within them. How so?

Ezekiel 36:26-27
26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Then why didn't these believers have works naturally flow from their life? Because they have free wills and minds that can be deceived into buying into false teachings that come from the devil. In other words, their battle was a spiritual one. It was not physical a physical battle.

 

[Fishbait]

What are you talking about eternally? It is so clear to everyone reading your posts that you are being willfully ignorant of the scriptures. James is absolutely %100 saying that you cannot be SAVED without WORKS! He specifically asked "what does it profit a man if he SAYS he has faith but has no WORKS? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM? The answer to the question is NO faith without works cannot SAVE anybody! Now if you deny that this is what James is saying, you are just flat out lying. Read the chapter. He makes the statement twice: FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD! And then if verse 24 he literally says, "You see how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY! If you can deny that James is saying you have to have works in order to be saved, you are intentionally closing your eyes.

I have a question perhaps someone here can answer. Before answering please remember what occured on that day:

"Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


Q. Did the criminal on the cross next to Jesus do 'good works' at any time in his life to be saved?

 

[Jason0047]

I have a question perhaps someone here can answer. Before answering please remember what occured on that day:

"Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


Q. Did the criminal on the cross next to Jesus do 'good works' at any time in his life to be saved?

Yes, I believe Jesus saving the thief on the cross proves that we are not saved by works. What James was saying is that a person who lives out their faith will naturally have works that shows their faith to be true. For salvation is in a person named Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). So, if the Spirit truly lives within you, then you will naturally have the fruits of the Spirit to show your faith to be true or not. It's not that works save you. No, no. Works are just the proof in the pudding that you have been born again and that God lives within you. Sort of like how waves (works) are the product of the wind (Spirit). For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

In other words, Jesus is salvation. And if Jesus does the "good work" within us because we can do nothing without Him, then we have to conclude that....

Works flow out of salvation (or in one possessing the Son, who is the source of Eternal Life).

 

[Fishbait]

Yes, I believe Jesus saving the thief on the cross proves that we are not saved by works. What James was saying is that a person who lives out their faith will naturally have works that shows their faith to be true. For salvation is in a person named Jesus Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). So, if the Spirit truly lives within you, then you will naturally have the fruits of the Spirit to show your faith to be true or not. It's not that works save you. No, no. Works are just the proof in the pudding that you have been born again and that God lives within you. Sort of like how waves (works) are the product of the wind (Spirit). For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him.

In other words, Jesus is salvation. And if Jesus does the "good work" within us because we can do nothing without Him, then we have to conclude that....

Works flow out of salvation (or in one possessing the Son, who is the source of Eternal Life).

Wise words Jason.

 

[Jason0047]

Wise words Jason.

Thank you, my friend.

May God bless you greatly this fine day.

 

[newbirth]

The translation you use takes away the power and impact of what it says in the KJV.

Ananias said to Paul,

"...arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16 KJV).

In other words, Ananias was not saying that baptism was washing away his sins, but he was telling Paul that his calling upon the name of the Lord would wash away his sins. For the Scriptures say, who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13). The Scriptures also say that, if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

Of course and baptism would wash the dirt of his body...the scripture says "be baptised and wash away thy sins"
I hear you...
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Those guys probably just love putting baptise in the scripture for no reason....

If one understand the power of baptism they would understand why Paul was not too keen on baptising believers himself...
That is why he said he came to preach not to baptise...men were starting to form their own cliques. If baptism was not a serious matter Paul would not have cared if anyone said he baptised in his own name.

[SUP]Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
[/SUP] Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[newbirth]

I have a question perhaps someone here can answer. Before answering please remember what occured on that day:

"Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."


Q. Did the criminal on the cross next to Jesus do 'good works' at any time in his life to be saved?

The son of man has power to forgive sins...
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he arose, and departed to his house.
Does this question make null and void the commands of God? What is it to you he saved a thief on a cross. That you would want to use that as an excuse not to obey his commands.

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

What are you going to do about Enoch?
When Christ comes for his saints and we are all gathered together, If you see Hitler in the midst will you question God?

 

[newbirth]

Like I said before. I am not denying that a true believer will have works within their life. For I believe James when he says faith without works is dead. You don't seem to be understandingj that. Let me say it one more time. I believe James when he says faith without works is dead. The key difference between us is not that we are in disagreement about a true believer should have much fruit, the difference between us is that I believe Jesus saves me and you believe

Jesus + ____(Insert your name here)____ or your works saves you.

We both believe works are necessary for the true believer's life.
No disagreement on that point.
But how we both acheived salvation is completely two different ways.

Yours salvation is Christ + Legalism.
My salvation is simply Jesus Christ.

Yes I believe Jesus saved me and made me a new creation, created unto good works....If I have no good works then I am either disobeying God ,plain lazy or ignorant. Any way you put it I am not doing what I was created for. So the difference is I believe Jesus saved us for his purpose , you believe Jesus saved us for decoration. We are all part of his body and every part has it's function. the part that is useless or offensive he cuts off.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Jason0047]

The son of man has power to forgive sins...
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And he arose, and departed to his house.
Does this question make null and void the commands of God? What is it to you he saved a thief on a cross. That you would want to use that as an excuse not to obey his commands.

And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

What are you going to do about Enoch?
When Christ comes for his saints and we are all gathered together, If you see Hitler in the midst will you question God?

First of all. Hitler committed suicide (Which is a sin you can't repent of), so he will not be among the many saints that are following Christ at His return. Second, you completely ignored the passages I brought up and are focusing a laser beam only upon those words or passages that you prefer. I just demonstrated to you that salvation is not in Baptism. Salvation is actually in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes I believe Jesus saved me and made me a new creation, created unto good works....If I have no good works then I am either disobeying God ,plain lazy or ignorant. Any way you put it I am not doing what I was created for. So the difference is I believe Jesus saved us for his purpose , you believe Jesus saved us for decoration. We are all part of his body and every part has it's function. the part that is useless or offensive he cuts off.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You don't seem to grasp what I am saying to you. I repeat. I do not believe a true believer will have no fruit or works within their life. You keep pushing that false belief upon me that a believer will do nothing for God. What you don't realize is that while works show a true faith, works don't actually save you in and of themselves.

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, I have been accused of being a "worker" by OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) proponents because I believe works must be present in a true believer's life (Yet I tell them that works do not save in and of themselves, but works are to merely proceed from being saved). Yet, the OSAS proponent will accuse me of being a "worker", anyways. On the opposite side of the spectrum, the Legalist accuses me of not doing works (When I said no such thing). I said that works must be present to show a true faith. Must. Meaning it has to be there or it is not a true faith. It would be a dead faith. But do I believe works save you? No. Works merely flow from salvation. Yet, I will be accused that I am promoting laziness or doing no works. However, nothing could be further from the truth.