It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

What is the point if they were OSS...according to your doctrine there is nothing one can do to lose salvation. If they had to repent it means they were walking in the way of perdition and unless they repented they could not be saved...Unless you think they were abiding in Christ with sin festering & carnality

Good morning, NewB.

Abiding in Christ, is an alternative to carnality -- the Christian can be in either current status; I believe that Christians generally oscillate back and forth every day. At some moment, they put on the Old Man and sin, act selfishly. At other times they have the New Man on & amazingly even do good to enemies & actually love neighbors as self. I think it is very rare for a Christian to get through an entire day without sinning.

NewB, I congratulate you on presenting the Word of God. However, in this instance you just said things (as we all do from time to time) without any Bible evidence at all, like: "if they were walking in the way of perdition" "unless they repented they could not be saved."

What the Word of God teaches is that Once you are saved you are saved:

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. I believe that. I have this Savior who will save me from my sins, since I trusted Him as my Savior and became a "His people."

The Word also teaches that the Lord uses means to keep His people saved, including chastisement. In the case of the Corinthians, they are called carnal in 1 Cor, not unsaved.

" Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:"

He who began a good work in you, will complete it. The question is to any "you," Has He ever begun the good work in you?

 

[newbirth]

God day Atwood

=Atwood;1640569]

Good morning, NewB.

Abiding in Christ, is an alternative to carnality -- the Christian can be in either current status; I believe that Christians generally oscillate back and forth every day. At some moment, they put on the Old Man and sin, act selfishly. At other times they have the New Man on & amazingly even do good to enemies & actually love neighbors as self. I think it is very rare for a Christian to get through an entire day without sinning.

I do not think it is all that rare. Oscillating is not stability it is instability. We are supposed to be steadfast, grounded and rooted in the word.

NewB, I congratulate you on presenting the Word of God. However, in this instance you just said things (as we all do from time to time) without any Bible evidence at all, like: "if they were walking in the way of perdition" "unless they repented they could not be saved."

by your words you admit they were in sin festering & carnality... so they were not abiding in Christ, our salvation is in Christ, one cannot be in Christ in sin, outside of Christ is death and destruction, they were in sin therefore outside Christ therefore in the way of perdition.

What the Word of God teaches is that Once you are saved you are saved:

No you teach that

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. I believe that. I have this Savior who will save me from my sins, since I trusted Him as my Savior and became a "His people."

He is our saviour but he has to be our Lord also, if we believe we must also obey

The Word also teaches that the Lord uses means to keep His people saved, including chastisement. In the case of the Corinthians, they are called carnal in 1 Cor, not unsaved.

They were called carnal because they were walking after the flesh...we are called to walk after the spirit...those who walk after the flesh reaps death those who walk after the spirit reaps life.

" Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours:"

we are sanctified in Christ but we can easily become defiled...
[h=1][/h] [SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

He who began a good work in you, will complete it. The question is to any "you," Has He ever begun the good work in you?

If you want this to apply to" you" then you must be like these...[SUP]5 [/SUP]For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

[/QUOTE]

Those remained steadfast and Paul had the confidence they would continue. So the question is not if God will complete the work that is assured ,the question is if your fellowship will continue to the end for him to complete the work.

 

[Atwood]

=Atwood;1640569] I do not think it is all that rare. Oscillating is not stability it is instability. We are supposed to be steadfast, grounded and rooted in the word.

Are you claiming self-righteousness, NewB?

by your words you admit

I am not "admitting." I state the facts which the Lord revealed. I answer to no accusation in this regard.

they were in sin festering & carnality... so they were not abiding in Christ, our salvation is in Christ, one cannot be in Christ in sin, outside of Christ is death and destruction, they were in sin therefore outside Christ therefore in the way of perdition.

The scripture does not agree with you, NewB. I already quoted you the intro to 1 Cor where they are sanctified saints, children of God, if in a carnal state. Being in Christ is not the issue. A man can be in Christ & in the Spirit, but at the moment not "after the Spirit" or "according to the Spirit," Greek kata Pneuma. Read Romans 8 carefully to prove this to yourself.

Those remained steadfast and Paul had the confidence they would continue. So the question is not if God will complete the work that is assured ,the question is if your fellowship will continue to the end for him to complete the work.

Kindly do not make up things to destroy yourself, dear NewB.

The scripture does not say "If your fellowship . . . blah blah."
It says that He Who began a good work in you will complete it. It is His workmanship, not ours.

NewB, you can square you hippopotamus anyway you like, but God's Word stands like a rock, vain to hit the head against. It does cost self-righteous pride to realize that salvation is all God's Work.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Why fight it?

 

[Atwood]

Song of the Eternally Secure: The Immanuel's Land Attitude

THE ATTITUDE OF THE SOUL SECURE IN THE LORD JESUS:
Sing It!

The sands of time are sinking, the dawn of Heaven breaks;
The summer morn I’ve sighed for—the fair, sweet morn awakes:
Dark, dark hath been the midnight, but dayspring is at hand,
And glory, glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

O Christ, He is the fountain, the deep, sweet well of love!
The streams of earth I’ve tasted more deep I’ll drink above:
There to an ocean fullness His mercy doth expand,
And glory, glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

Oh! Well it is forever, Oh! well forevermore,
My nest hung in no forest of all this death doomed shore:
Yea, let the vain world vanish, as from the ship the strand,
While glory—glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

There the Red Rose of Sharon unfolds its heartsome bloom
And fills the air of heaven with ravishing perfume:
Oh! To behold it blossom, while by its fragrance fanned
Where glory—glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

The King there in His beauty, without a veil is seen:
It were a well spent journey, though seven deaths lay between:
The Lamb with His fair army, doth on Mount Zion stand,
And glory—glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

With mercy and with judgment my web of time He wove,
And aye, the dews of sorrow were lustered with His love;
I’ll bless the hand that guided, I’ll bless the heart that planned
When throned where glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

Soon shall the cup of glory wash down earth’s bitterest woes,
Soon shall the desert briar break into Eden’s rose;
The curse shall change to blessing the name on earth that’s banned
Be graven on the white stone in Immanuel’s land.

O I am my Beloved’s and my Beloved’s mine!
He brings a poor vile sinner into His “house of wine.”
I stand upon His merit—I know no other stand,
Not even where glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.

I shall sleep sound in Jesus, filled with His likeness rise,
To love and to adore Him, to see Him with these eyes:
’Tween me and resurrection but Paradise doth stand;
Then—then for glory dwelling in Immanuel’s land.

The Bride eyes not her garment, but her dear Bridegroom’s face;
I will not gaze at glory but on my King of grace.
Not at the crown He giveth but on His pierced hand;
The Lamb is all the glory of Immanuel’s land.

I have borne scorn and hatred, I have borne wrong and shame,
Earth’s proud ones have reproached me for Christ’s thrice blessed Name:
Where God His seal set fairest they’ve stamped the foulest brand,
But judgment shines like noonday in Immanuel’s land.

They’ve summoned me before them, but there I may not come,
My Lord says “Come up hither,” My Lord says “Welcome home!”
My King, at His white throne, my presence doth command
Where glory—glory dwelleth in Immanuel’s land.


by Anne R. Cou*sin

(a very long poem, sung as a hymn. I omitted some verses which were about Anthoth, a place apparently in England, verses not about the Lord Jesus so much).

 

[Hoffco]

Newbirth, I do believe many Gospel promises are conditional upon our faith and obedience; On the other hand the Bible does present the sovereignty of God over all His works. None of His purpose will fail. You, on the other hand, have a very weak god who must depend on man to get His purposes done. This is wicked heresy. God has two wills: decreed will and a perceptive,permissive will, of God's wishes, things he would like, but will not force ,because He has not decreed them. God has elected many to salvation and they ALL will be saved, "His People " Mt.1;21. But this is a secret, all we can know for sure, is ,we must repent trust and obey Jesus to be saved. As we mature and our faith is perfected by our good works , we come to a conviction that we are one of GOD's elect. But we should never be so sure ,that we get careless, then we may be the wicked servant, cast into outter darkness. Love, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Re: Song of the Eternally Secure: The Immanuel's Land Attitude

Atwood, Thanks soooo much for that sung, I love it soooo much. Love Hoffco

 

[Atwood]

,we must repent trust and obey Jesus to be saved.

Dear Hoffco,

You do send aloft strange incense.
The Word tells us:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

A man who is unsaved, unregenerate, dead in trespasses & sins has no obediences -- only disobediences. To pass from death to life, there is but one obedience and that is to this command: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation is not of works. There are not 3 things to do to be saved on man's part: Only believe. This is reiterated over & over; the evidence is so great that it cannot be all posted in one post on this forum.

Repent, as saving, is not something different from believing. Metanoia is a change of mind; and the change of mind which saves is from disbelief to belief.

If you think you some metanoia verses that say otherwise, post them, and I may be able to help you understand them.

The Lord says, Believe & be saved. Now if someone believed (regardless of anything else) the Lord would be guilty of false-advertising if He did not save the person. Salvation is awarded instantaneously on belief and it starts with becoming a new creation in Christ. There is no obedience to commandments until salvation is initiated. And after it is initiated, there is no ultimate salvation to eternal life to achieve. From the human perspective the game is then over. As I understand it, from God's perspective, it was all over before creation, I am speaking of the human responsibility in salvation; and that is only believe.

 

[Kerry]

Dear Hoffco,

You do send aloft strange incense.
The Word tells us:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

A man who is unsaved, unregenerate, dead in trespasses & sins has no obediences -- only disobediences. To pass from death to life, there is but one obedience and that is to this command: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Salvation is not of works. There are not 3 things to do to be saved on man's part: Only believe. This is reiterated over & over; the evidence is so great that it cannot be all posted in one post on this forum.

Repent, as saving, is not something different from believing. Metanoia is a change of mind; and the change of mind which saves is from disbelief to belief.

If you think you some metanoia verses that say otherwise, post them, and I may be able to help you understand them.

The Lord says, Believe & be saved. Now if someone believed (regardless of anything else) the Lord would be guilty of false-advertising if He did not save the person. Salvation is awarded instantaneously on belief and it starts with becoming a new creation in Christ. There is no obedience to commandments until salvation is initiated. And after it is initiated, there is no ultimate salvation to eternal life to achieve. From the human perspective the game is then over. As I understand it, from God's perspective, it was all over before creation, I am speaking of the human responsibility in salvation; and that is only believe.

Getting there and almost, Love ya bro

 

[newbirth]

Are you claiming self-righteousness, NewB?

N but Christ says...Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

I am not "admitting." I state the facts which the Lord revealed. I answer to no accusation in this regard.

If you don't admit why do you say it..in sin festering & carnality.

The scripture does not agree with you, NewB. I already quoted you the intro to 1 Cor where they are sanctified saints, children of God, if in a carnal state. Being in Christ is not the issue. A man can be in Christ & in the Spirit, but at the moment not "after the Spirit" or "according to the Spirit," Greek kata Pneuma. Read Romans 8 carefully to prove this to yourself.

If you are not walking after the spirit you are walking after the flesh...If you are walking after the flesh you are outside Christ...to be carnally minded is death. So if a man is in Christ in the spirit and walking after the flesh...carnally minded.Then why are we saved from sin and the power of it?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


Rom 8 does not prove you can be a sinner living after the flesh in Christ. It proves God will always love us. It does not prove you will always love God..You should look at Rom 11:22

Kindly do not make up things to destroy yourself, dear NewB.

The scripture does not say "If your fellowship . . . blah blah."
It says that He Who began a good work in you will complete it. It is His workmanship, not ours.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

NewB, you can square you hippopotamus anyway you like, but God's Word stands like a rock, vain to hit the head against. It does cost self-righteous pride to realize that salvation is all God's Work.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.

Why fight it?

Because of your half truths and innuendos making evil doctrine

You don't care about the truth all you care about is your doctrine

 

[newbirth]

The Lord says, Believe & be saved. Now if someone believed (regardless of anything else) the Lord would be guilty of false-advertising if He did not save the person. Salvation is awarded instantaneously on belief and it starts with becoming a new creation in Christ. There is no obedience to commandments until salvation is initiated. And after it is initiated, there is no ultimate salvation to eternal life to achieve. From the human perspective the game is then over. As I understand it, from God's perspective, it was all over before creation, I am speaking of the human responsibility in salvation; and that is only believe.

The Lord also said....
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is the reason James said Faith without works is dead....you believe in faith with no works...a hearer of the word but not a doer..

 

[Atwood]

You don't care about the truth all you care about is your doctrine

You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free!

I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, but by Me.

Dear NewB,

Why kick against the pricks? The Lord Jesus died for you and suffered for your sins. Now He offers you eternal life as a free gift.
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Give up any down-grading of the Savior to mere "chance-giver." The promise is there and yours just for trusting in Him. Focus only on Him and cast yourself on His care. His promise:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved!

I give them eternal life and they shall never perish.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for
He shall save His people from their sins.

 

[Atwood]

[SUP]NewB posted:
"16 [/SUP]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[First, deflate the self-righteousness; hypothetically you would "enter into life, if you keep the commandments perfectly; but no person keeps the commandments -- there are self-righteous pretenders.]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

[He was a self-righteous liar.]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."

[His sin is now exposed! He is an idolater!]

"22 But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sorrowful; for he was one that had great possessions. And Jesus said unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, It is hard for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 And when the disciples heard it, they were astonished exceedingly, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

It is impossible to be saved by keeping commandments. You cannot, and to try to be saved this way is to disobey God's Word which declares "not of works." To claim one is saved this way is the sin of self-righteous hypocrisy.

Passages which admonish believers to obey the Lord are irrelevant, as believers are already saved.

NewB posted:
[SUP][/quote]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.[/quote]

Thus the obedience of believers is asserted; it is something that follows salvation inevitably, because they are saved!

NewB posted:
[SUP]

22

[/SUP]

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Chri

st our Lord.

Do you believe those verses NewB? The believer is free from sin, has become a servant of God, has fruit unto holiness & in the end everlasting life! This passage asserts eternal security.

You have your fruit to holiness & the end everlasting life!

have, have, have! The believe has it. He has it now! He has the end everlasting life. No doubt of it.

This is the reason James said Faith without works is dead....you believe in faith with no works...a hearer of the word but not a doer..

Thou shalt not bear false witness, NewB!

Works do not bring salvation. Salvation does bring works.

If there is any self-righteous Pharisee reading this, repent of thinking your commandment keeping saves you. You are a sinner, not a commandment keeper. Take the place of the publican: God be merciful to me a sinner. Trust the SAvior to change you. Eph 2 explains it:

Eph. 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—

4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

 

[newbirth]

Newbirth, I do believe many Gospel promises are conditional upon our faith and obedience; On the other hand the Bible does present the sovereignty of God over all His works. None of His purpose will fail. You, on the other hand, have a very weak god who must depend on man to get His purposes done. This is wicked heresy. God has two wills: decreed will and a perceptive,permissive will, of God's wishes, things he would like, but will not force ,because He has not decreed them. God has elected many to salvation and they ALL will be saved, "His People " Mt.1;21. But this is a secret, all we can know for sure, is ,we must repent trust and obey Jesus to be saved. As we mature and our faith is perfected by our good works , we come to a conviction that we are one of GOD's elect. But we should never be so sure ,that we get careless, then we may be the wicked servant, cast into outter darkness. Love, Hoffco

God has elected many to salvation and they ALL will be saved
But this is a secret
we must repent trust and obey Jesus to be saved
As we mature and our faith is perfected by our good works
we come to a conviction that we are one of GOD's elect
But we should never be so sure, that we get careless
then we may be the wicked servant, cast into outter darkness

What kind of babbling is this Hoffco?.....

 

[Atwood]

Start w/ Eternal Security; End Debating Salvation by Works

Interesting how a thread on Eternal Security ends up a debate of salvation by works -- most incredible. If any false doctrine is abominated and refuted by scripture it is salvation by works. Salvation by works is the abominable self-righteous doctrine of the Pharisee who praised himself in praise for his good works. The Pharisee got condemnation for his pretense. The publican who cries out, "God be merciful to me a sinner" and trusts the Savior to save him from his sins & give him eternal life, ends up justified, declared righteous.

Salvation by works does not bring eternal security; you have never done enough. The hypothetical justification by works comes for keeping the commandments perfectly. And man never does that. So the commandments are a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. We should despair at obeying God's commandments, be convicted of our depravity, and cry out for salvation.

Eph 2 explains it:



And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—

The unsaved man is not an itty-bitty sinner, who fails in this or that way. He is a gross sinner, who never does any good works. And any claims of self-righteousness are a stench of lies.

4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

[Salvation is by God's unmerited favor, His grace. Though we were sinners, Christ died for us. The sinner is dead spiritually; he does not do good works. Good works only come after a new birth, being made alive by grace.]


6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

[Before salvation, no good works. Once you trust Christ as SAvior (faith), then & only then do good works follow.]

It is an exercise in comic tragedy when sinners who never did a good work in their lives (all was selfishness, abominable sin, and self-righteousness) want to insist on salvation by works lest there be no works. The self-righteous attempt of the sinner to claim validation of works, is a comic abomination. It is like saying: "I won't trust Christ as Savior from my sin because if I did, not good works would happen," this ridiculous claim being made by a man who never did one unselfish good deed in his whole life!

"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

 

[newbirth]

[SUP]NewB posted:
"16 [/SUP]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

[First, deflate the self-righteousness; hypothetically you would "enter into life, if you keep the commandments perfectly; but no person keeps the commandments -- there are self-righteous pretenders.]

[SUP]18 [/SUP]He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

You are saying Jesus lied...if the man had done all as commanded would he not hav received eternal life..

(Jesus) but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
(man) All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
(Jesus) If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[He was a self-righteous liar.]

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me."
[His sin is now exposed! He is an idolater!]

Yes he trust his riches more than he trusted Christ

It is impossible to be saved by keeping commandments. You cannot, and to try to be saved this way is to disobey God's Word which declares "not of works." To claim one is saved this way is the sin of self-righteous hypocrisy.

Passages which admonish believers to obey the Lord are irrelevant, as believers are already saved.

You teach men to disobey the LORD?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

NewB posted:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Thus the obedience of believers is asserted; it is something that follows salvation inevitably, because they are saved!

[/QUOTE]They obeyed the doctrine from their heart, and being then made free, they became servants.

They obeyed....then..Christ made them free....then...they became servants, If Christ made us free he does not now make us servants , we choose to become servants, and servants take orders from their masters, they obey.

NewB posted:

Do you believe those verses NewB? The believer is free from sin, has become a servant of God, has fruit unto holiness & in the end everlasting life! This passage asserts eternal security.

You have your fruit to holiness & the end everlasting life!

have, have, have! The believe has it. He has it now! He has the end everlasting life. No doubt of it.

No it is the believers who become servants of God they have fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life, Since you do not obey, you are not a servant, why do you want these blessings?

Your quote atwood Passages which admonish believers to obey the Lord are irrelevant, as believers are already saved.

Thou shalt not bear false witness, NewB!

Works do not bring salvation. Salvation does bring works.

If there is any self-righteous Pharisee reading this, repent of thinking your commandment keeping saves you. You are a sinner, not a commandment keeper. Take the place of the publican: God be merciful to me a sinner. Trust the SAvior to change you. Eph 2 explains it:

No one is saying works brings salvation
fruit=work unto holiness and the end everlasting life.That is why we are created unto good works.....

Eph. 2:1
And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, 2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience; 3 among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:—

4 but God, being rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not of works, that no man should glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them

.[/QUOTE]

 

[notuptome]

No one is saying works brings salvation
fruit=work unto holiness and the end everlasting life.That is why we are created unto good works.....

One of us is confused. One moment you say works do not save and in the next you say without them you are not saved???

A lot like asking how long is eternal life. Grace and works do not mix. Grace is wholly sufficient to save and to preserve throughout all of eternity. Either you are saved by grace or you are not saved. If you are saved by grace you are saved for all of eternity.

Works flow out from grace not back into grace. We cannot judge another's salvation because grace works in the heart and no man can know what is in the heart of another man.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Delivery]

Re: Start w/ Eternal Security; End Debating Salvation by Works

I agree with Atwood on this subject. The main most defining reason that Once saved, always saved is the right most scriptural sound doctrine is because the bible says:

3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Every body is bad and evil and deserving of eternal damnation. But because of God's love for us He sent Jesus to die and suffer for our sins, so if we just believe in Him He washes away our sins, cleanses us, or(as the bible puts it in several places) santifies us. Salvation is not about not sinning, it's about being forgiven for your sins.

People who accuse the OSAS camp of promoting the idea that we can get saved and then go on sinning and committing all kinds of transgressions and still go to heaven, are like the judgmental religious Hypocrites of Jesus' day, the scribes and pharisees, of whom Jesus said, Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Since we're all sinners and are all undeserving of eternal life with God in Heaven, then the only way to be saved is to have your sins forgiven. And the only way that can happen is to believe in Jesus.

People who think we should do good works to be saved and that we can lose are Salvation if those works aren't good enough are either people who think they don't sin and therefore don't need to be forgiven or they think because their sins aren't as bad as others, they think they should be forgiven , but other people whom they think have worse sins shouldn't be forgiven. It's a self-righteous, judgmental attitude, like the scribes and pharisees.

If we can lose our salvation by not being good enough and not having the works to keep us saved, then nobody is saved. We'd all be going to Hell because nobody is good enough to deserve or merit entrance into the kingdom of God, no matter how hard we try.

 

[Atwood]

Well, NewB, Since you do not obey, why do you want these blessings?

" 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The persons addressed, the ye, are believers in Christ.

The text says made free from sin, that means they didn't do it themselves, but were saved.
It also asserts for this ye
that they have become servants of God,
they have fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.

It reiterates that eternal life is a free gift.
Thus it doesn't come by works.

There is no if or condition in the passage, things true of all believers are listed. If does not say "if you become servants," or only some part of the believers get eternal life.

It is a free gift for all believers.

But the self-righteous who believe that works (commandment keeping) saves & try to prove it from Mat 19 are excluded from the whole thing.

Repent of denying the Savior, & trust Him to save.

 

[Atwood]

Grace and works do not mix.

So true. Also 2 SAviors don't mix!

There is not room in the universe for 2 Saviors -- self & Christ.

 

[Alligator]

Well, NewB, Since you do not obey, why do you want these blessings?

" 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The persons addressed, the ye, are believers in Christ.

The text says made free from sin, that means they didn't do it themselves, but were saved.
It also asserts for this ye
that they have become servants of God,
they have fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.

It reiterates that eternal life is a free gift.
Thus it doesn't come by works.

There is no if or condition in the passage, things true of all believers are listed. If does not say "if you become servants," or only some part of the believers get eternal life.

It is a free gift for all believers.

But the self-righteous who believe that works (commandment keeping) saves & try to prove it from Mat 19 are excluded from the whole thing.

Repent of denying the Savior, & trust Him to save.

You should repent for even being on this forum