Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[VCO]

It is a wise person who does not mock what he does not understand.

The Mormons or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that Christ restored his Church to the earth after a long period of Apostacy. They teach that every person can find out if this is true of false through the Holy Spirit. The one thing you'll notice if you ever talk with the missionaries is they will not try to convince you of what they teach, they will ask you to pray to God and ask for yourself.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I realize that after having said this that most or all of you will have summarily dismissed me as "deceived", "misguided", "spiritually confused", "decieved by satan" and in need of being brought back and saved from the errors of my ways.

None-the-less, I tell you I have read the Book of Mormon and I know through the Spirit of Christ that it is of God! It is another testament along with the Bible that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Anyone who chooses to can pick up the book and test it for themselves.

No, we believe your late Prophet: The late Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, who died in 2008, stated in one of his last sermons from the pulpit in Salt Lake City, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches a different Jesus Christ than the rest of the Churches."

The Mormon Jesus is therefore a false Christ that we were warned about in Mat. 24:24.

And just how do you know the book of Mormon was not just made up by Joseph Smith? Better read this excerpt from your own history book first.

Maybe some have seen this info before, but it is documented in a Mormon History book, that Joseph Smith's own mother publicly made a statement that seriously points to Joseph Smith actually being the author of the Book of Mormon:

Now concerning Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon, I will Quote the History of Joseph Smith, 1979 ed., pg. 83, so you can look this up. There you will find your own Mormon history book quoting Joseph Smith's own Mother:

Speaking of conversations occurring between 1820 and 1824, she said, "Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular, their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."​

Now remember Joseph Smith claims he received the golden plates in 1827 and claimed he translated them in 1829, which is five years after his own Mother bragged about the made up stories Joseph would entertain the family with, and the same kind of stories end up in the Book of Mormon. Now who do you suppose the real author of the Book of Mormon is?

While we are on the subject, in the Book of Mormon 132:38-39 it says it is okay to have multiple wives, while the footnote below verse 39 refers you to Jacob 2:24 where it says that the Lord says that Polygamy is abominable before Me. Now I ask again, how can Book of Mormon 132:38-39 be written by GOD, when he clearly said it was abominable to have more than one wife in Jacob 2:24.

Sounds to me like that portion of the Book of Mormon was definitely written by Joseph Smith, probably to white-wash the sin of Polygamy, because he had 2 wives at the time of the 1835 printing of the Pearl of Great Price, and went on to marry a total of 34 wives.

Now go to the original Pearl of Great Price originally printed between 1835-1876, (perhaps one of your elderly relatives still has a copy, look for a light brown hard back, reprints were frequently sold at Pioneer Days), go to section 101 and you will find it calls it "the crime of polygamy", thus Joseph Smith had to have known it. And to my knowledge he NEVER REPENTED OF IT. In fact he married 34 wives before he died and two of them that he married in 1843 were only 14 years old. It appears marrying multiple wives became an addiction to the sin of polygamy for Joseph Smith, because in 1843 he married a total of 17 wives. http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Many years ago, I personally saw seven different paintings in the Mormon Museum in a dimmed hallway back in the far right corner with lights on the pictures. ALL depicting Joseph Smith receiving the golden plates differently because Joseph Smith had retold the story of receiving the golden plates differently so many times. I doubt if those paintings are still on display.

So no, you can never convince me that the Book of Mormon is of GOD, especially since the supposed Golden Plates have NEVER been on display. The evidence points to the Book of Mormon being spun out of the mind of Joseph Smith himself.

 

[notuptome]

Please note that the lake of fire will be well populated with nice, good, decent people all of whom denied Christ as their Savior. Those who consider themselves good enough as they are have little to no use for a Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[johnluke]

Originally posted by VCO:
No, we believe your late Prophet: The late Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, who died in 2008, stated in one of his last sermons from the pulpit in Salt Lake City, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches a different Jesus Christ than the rest of the Churches."

The Mormon Jesus is therefore a false Christ that we were warned about in Mat. 24:24.

Hello VCO, I can guarantee that your Jesus is different from my Jesus, but we are both Christians. In fact I would bet that if you lined up 1,000 active, go-to-church-on-Sunday Christians you would get at least 300 different Jesus's.

Just look at the thread "once saved, always saved". There are probably 15 different Christians that have posted their beliefs about this simple subject, but you find that there is a war going on in the Christian churches about this simple subject. A literal verbal war. Now you take this seemingly clear cut "by grace we are saved, not of works lest we boast" subject and you get 1/4 of Christians that believe it, 1/4 that don't believe it, and 1/4 who believe parts of it, but not all of it, and you get 1/4 who don't know anything about it. In other words you would be hard pressed to get a consensus.

Now take a very difficult subject about Jesus being eternally begotten of the Father and what that means (this is where you get into the divinity question) and you certainly won't be able to get a consensus. Most Christians would be lost even to approach the subject. On the first level, you may be able to come close to a concensus, but even in this first level you will find division. The second level is where there will be some major divisions and the third level, forget it, the arguments can ge violent.

So you are chiding the Mormons for not believing the Jesus that you believe and immediately brand their Jesus a false Jesus.
You must be honest then and brand 90% of the Christian churches as believing in a false Jesus too. Seriously be honest and you know that I am right, just read this chat forum for proof. I love this chat forum but there is never consensus. Never.

So whose Jesus is the true Jesus. I believe I worship the true Jesus. I am sure you, VCO worship the true Jesus. I can tell you honestly that my Jesus is different from your Jesus. So which Jesus is true. I get all, and I mean all of my Christology from the Bible (KJV most of the time). I am sure you get your Christology from the Bible too. I beleive the Holy Ghiost has witnessed to me that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of all mankind that believe in him. I believe you have had the witness of the Holy Ghost that what you believe about Jesus is correct. So what do we do now? Who is teaching false doctrine and who is teaching the truth, we both seem to be reading and praying alike.

Lets look at our own Christian churches and their glaring divisions before we call the Mormons or any other Christian sect false teahers.

I know the Mormons teach some radical things about Jesus, but I also know they back up their teachings from the Bible. It is interesting to have discussions with them because they put away their other books and open the Bible, usually the KJV and they prove their point. It is tough sledding with those Mormons who have studied and know the Bible. Those who have not studied look like deer-in-the-headlights. Does that sound familiar about our churches.

 

[maxwel]

Hello VCO, I can guarantee that your Jesus is different from my Jesus, but we are both Christians. In fact I would bet that if you lined up 1,000 active, go-to-church-on-Sunday Christians you would get at least 300 different Jesus's.

Just look at the thread "once saved, always saved". There are probably 15 different Christians that have posted their beliefs about this simple subject, but you find that there is a war going on in the Christian churches about this simple subject. A literal verbal war. Now you take this seemingly clear cut "by grace we are saved, not of works lest we boast" subject and you get 1/4 of Christians that believe it, 1/4 that don't believe it, and 1/4 who believe parts of it, but not all of it, and you get 1/4 who don't know anything about it. In other words you would be hard pressed to get a consensus.

Now take a very difficult subject about Jesus being eternally begotten of the Father and what that means (this is where you get into the divinity question) and you certainly won't be able to get a consensus. Most Christians would be lost even to approach the subject. On the first level, you may be able to come close to a concensus, but even in this first level you will find division. The second level is where there will be some major divisions and the third level, forget it, the arguments can ge violent.

So you are chiding the Mormons for not believing the Jesus that you believe and immediately brand their Jesus a false Jesus.
You must be honest then and brand 90% of the Christian churches as believing in a false Jesus too. Seriously be honest and you know that I am right, just read this chat forum for proof. I love this chat forum but there is never consensus. Never.

So whose Jesus is the true Jesus. I believe I worship the true Jesus. I am sure you, VCO worship the true Jesus. I can tell you honestly that my Jesus is different from your Jesus. So which Jesus is true. I get all, and I mean all of my Christology from the Bible (KJV most of the time). I am sure you get your Christology from the Bible too. I beleive the Holy Ghiost has witnessed to me that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of all mankind that believe in him. I believe you have had the witness of the Holy Ghost that what you believe about Jesus is correct. So what do we do now? Who is teaching false doctrine and who is teaching the truth, we both seem to be reading and praying alike.

Lets look at our own Christian churches and their glaring divisions before we call the Mormons or any other Christian sect false teahers.

I know the Mormons teach some radical things about Jesus, but I also know they back up their teachings from the Bible. It is interesting to have discussions with them because they put away their other books and open the Bible, usually the KJV and they prove their point. It is tough sledding with those Mormons who have studied and know the Bible. Those who have not studied look like deer-in-the-headlights. Does that sound familiar about our churches.

No.
You really wouldn't.
But don't take my word for... go and see for yourself.

If you really believe that, then I would challenge you to DO IT.
Go and interview 1,000 different committed christians from different ORTHODOX denominations.

Go ahead and do it.

What you'll find is that ALL orthdox denominations believe:
1. The Trinity
2. Christ Was God Incarnate... meaning Jesus IS and WAS ALWAYS GOD, before coming to earth, and he merely incarnated himself as a man for the special work of atonement.
3. Lucifer is not Christ's spiritual brother... Lucifer is a created being, created by Christ, because Christ IS GOD, HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD, and he created ALL THINGS, including lucifer.

This is the Jesus that ALL orthodox denominations believe in.

We are not lacking in unity on the IDENTITY OF CHRIST just because it makes you happy to believe we are.

 

[maxwel]

Don't preach "assumptions" you can't back up.

Go and test your hypothesis.

See for yourself.

But... you won't.

: )

 

[VCO]

Hello VCO, I can guarantee that your Jesus is different from my Jesus, but we are both Christians. In fact I would bet that if you lined up 1,000 active, go-to-church-on-Sunday Christians you would get at least 300 different Jesus's.

Just look at the thread "once saved, always saved". There are probably 15 different Christians that have posted their beliefs about this simple subject, but you find that there is a war going on in the Christian churches about this simple subject. A literal verbal war. Now you take this seemingly clear cut "by grace we are saved, not of works lest we boast" subject and you get 1/4 of Christians that believe it, 1/4 that don't believe it, and 1/4 who believe parts of it, but not all of it, and you get 1/4 who don't know anything about it. In other words you would be hard pressed to get a consensus.

Now take a very difficult subject about Jesus being eternally begotten of the Father and what that means (this is where you get into the divinity question) and you certainly won't be able to get a consensus. Most Christians would be lost even to approach the subject. On the first level, you may be able to come close to a concensus, but even in this first level you will find division. The second level is where there will be some major divisions and the third level, forget it, the arguments can ge violent.

So you are chiding the Mormons for not believing the Jesus that you believe and immediately brand their Jesus a false Jesus.
You must be honest then and brand 90% of the Christian churches as believing in a false Jesus too. Seriously be honest and you know that I am right, just read this chat forum for proof. I love this chat forum but there is never consensus. Never.

So whose Jesus is the true Jesus. I believe I worship the true Jesus. I am sure you, VCO worships the true Jesus. I can tell you honestly that my Jesus is different from your Jesus. So which Jesus is true. I get all, and I mean all of my Christology from the Bible (KJV most of the time). I am sure you get your Christology from the Bible too. I beleive the Holy Ghiost has witnessed to me that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of all mankind that believe in him. I believe you have had the witness of the Holy Ghost that what you believe about Jesus is correct. So what do we do now? Who is teaching false doctrine and who is teaching the truth, we both seem to be reading and praying alike.

Lets look at our own Christian churches and their glaring divisions before we call the Mormons or any other Christian sect false teahers.

I know the Mormons teach some radical things about Jesus, but I also know they back up their teachings from the Bible. It is interesting to have discussions with them because they put away their other books and open the Bible, usually the KJV and they prove their point. It is tough sledding with those Mormons who have studied and know the Bible. Those who have not studied look like deer-in-the-headlights. Does that sound familiar about our churches.

You would be wrong about that. All mainline Christianity Churches, teach the SAME JESUS CHRIST, and that is that He is the Second Person in the Holy Trinity. All psuedo-Christian cults teach a different Jesus:

Matthew 24:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] See, I have told you beforehand.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!

Galatians 1:6 (HCSB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from Him who called you by the grace of Christ ⌊and are turning⌋ to a different gospel—

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, fashioning themselves into apostles of Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no marvel; for even Satan fashioneth himself into an angel of light.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] It is no great thing therefore if his ministers also fashion themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works.


Since I know you will not look up the Doctrine Statements of Faith about the Deity of Jesus Christ among mainline Christian Churches, I will give you a head start and do some of the work for you.

MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY'S DOCTRINAL STATEMENTS ABOUT WHO JESUS CHRIST IS:

BAPTIST CHURCHES:

God the Son
We believe that Jesus Christ is the second person of the Trinity and is the only begotten eternal Son of God Who became flesh to reveal God to man, to fulfill prophecy, and to become the Savior of the lost world. In becoming man Jesus did not cease in any way to be God so that He is fully God and fully man inseparably united in one person forever. . .

LUTHERAN CHURCHES:

Lutherans believe that Jesus is both true God and true man in one person. The divine and human natures of Jesus are so united in His person that He is one person and not two and yet fully human and fully divine. We confess that Jesus is true God, the second person of the Trinity which a word that describes the One God and not three gods. We also believe Jesus is a true man born of the virgin Mary.

METHODIST CHURCHES:

We believe in the one true, holy and living God, Eternal Spirit, who is Creator, Sovereign and Preserver of all things visible and invisible. He is infinite in power, wisdom, justice, goodness and love, and rules with gracious regard for the well-being and salvation of men, to the glory of his name. We believe the one God reveals himself as the Trinity: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, distinct but inseparable, eternally one in essence and power.

The official United Methodist doctrine is that Jesus was the Son of God, the child of the virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit, truly God and truly Man, who for us and for our salvation came down from heaven. He is eternal Savior and Mediator, who intercedes for us and by him all persons will be judged.

CONGREGATIONALIST CHURCHES:

The Godhead: We believe in one God, the Creator, Preserver, and Ruler of all things, infinite in being and perfect in justice, wisdom, holiness, truth, and love. He exists eternally in three persons ~ Father, Son, and Holy Spirit ~ the same in substance, equal in power and glory.
Jesus Christ: We believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. As the eternal Son of God, Jesus took upon Himself human form. Since He was born of the Virgin Mary, He perfectly united the divine and human nature.

NON-DENOMINATIONAL BIBLE CHURCHES:

The Trinity Of The God-Head
We believe in one God, forever existing in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three have the same nature, attributes, and perfection, and are worthy of the same homage, confidence and obedience. (Matthew28:19; John 1:14; Acts 5 :3-4; II Corinthians 13-14; Heb. 1:1-3).

God The Son
. . He was born of the virgin Mary, and received a human body and sinless human nature.
We believe that He was the perfect God-Man living sinless throughout His life on earth. He retained His absolute deity, being at the same time very God and very Man, and that He functioned in both of these spheres during His life on earth. (I Timothy 3:16; Luke 1:30-35; John 1:1-19; Hebrews 4:15, Luke 2:40; John 1:1-2; Philippians 2:5-8).

NON-DENOMINATIONAL COMMUNITY CHURCHES:

We believe in one God, the eternal, infinite and all-knowing Spirit in whom all things have their source, support and end (Deut. 6:4; John 4:24; Gen. 1:1). Within this one God three distinct persons exist—Father, Son and Holy Spirit —united, equal and perfect in all attributes (Matt. 28:19; Acts 7:55; Acts 10:38; 2 Cor. 13:14). . .
We believe the Lord Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God, became man without ceasing to be God; that He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, that He might redeem sinful man. (John 1:1,2,14,18; Luke 1:34,35; Rom. 3:24-26; 8:34).

PRESBYTERIAN CHURCHES:

we trust in the one triune God, the Holy One of Israel,
whom alone we worship and serve.
We trust in Jesus Christ,
Fully human, fully God.

CATHOLIC CHURCHES:

The heart of Christian theology is the study of God not simply as one, but also as a
Trinity of persons – the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. “The mystery of the Most Holy 2
Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself”
(Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 234). It is laudable then that Catholic theologians
undertake such studies, especially when their writings advance the Church’s understanding and
appreciation of the mystery of God, and build up and confirm the faith of all believers. Because
the mystery of God as a Trinity of persons is the foundational mystery of the Church’s faith, it is
all the more important that those theologians who do embark on the study of this mystery do so
from within the very heart of the Church’s faith.

PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES:

2. The One True God. The triune Godhead consists of one true God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son, and the Holy Ghost the third person of the Godhead (John 10:36; 14:26; 20:21-22).

CHARISMATIC CALVARY CHAPELS:

2. We believe that there is one living and true GOD, eternally existing in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, equal in power and glory; that this triune God created all, upholds all, and governs all things. (Genesis 1:1; Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:8 and 48:16; Matthew 28:19-20; John 10:30; Hebrews 1:3)

ASSEMBLY OF GOD CHURCHES:

WE BELIEVE...There is only One True God–revealed in three persons...Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).

WE BELIEVE...In the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. As God's son Jesus was both human and divine.

GRACE BRETHREN CHURCHES:

1. THE ONE TRUE GOD. Existing eternally as three persons the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:22; Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14).
2. THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. His preexistence and deity (John 1:1-3), incarnation by virgin birth (John 1:14; Matthew 1:18-23), sinless life (Heb. 4:15), substitutionary death (2 Cor. 5:21), bodily resurrection (Luke 24:36-43), ascension into heaven and present ministry (Heb. 4:14-16), and coming again (Acts 1:11).

WESLEYAN CHURCHES:

Wesleyans believe in one God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and the Savior of all who put their faith in Him alone for eternal life. We believe that those who are made new in Christ are called to be holy in character and conduct, and can only live this way by being filled with the Lord's Spirit.

NARZARENE CHURCHES:

We believe in one God-the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

EVANGELICAL FREE CHURCHES:

We believe in one God, Creator of all things, holy, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in a loving unity of three equally divine Persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Having limitless knowledge and sovereign power, God has graciously purposed from eternity to redeem a people for Himself and to make all things new for His own glory.

We believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate, fully God and fully man, one Person in two natures. Jesus—Israel's promised Messiah—was conceived through the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.

etc., etc., etc.

 

[VCO]

No.
You really wouldn't.
But don't take my word for... go and see for yourself.

If you really believe that, then I would challenge you to DO IT.
Go and interview 1,000 different committed christians from different ORTHODOX denominations.

Go ahead and do it.

What you'll find is that ALL orthdox denominations believe:
1. The Trinity
2. Christ Was God Incarnate... meaning Jesus IS and WAS ALWAYS GOD, before coming to earth, and he merely incarnated himself as a man for the special work of atonement.
3. Lucifer is not Christ's spiritual brother... Lucifer is a created being, created by Christ, because Christ IS GOD, HAS ALWAYS BEEN GOD, and he created ALL THINGS, including lucifer.

This is the Jesus that ALL orthodox denominations believe in.

We are not lacking in unity on the IDENTITY OF CHRIST just because it makes you happy to believe we are.

I did, before I even saw your post, so check out my last post, and you will see that all mainline Churches teach the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Tintin]

No, we believe your late Prophet: The late Mormon Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley, who died in 2008, stated in one of his last sermons from the pulpit in Salt Lake City, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teaches a different Jesus Christ than the rest of the Churches."

The Mormon Jesus is therefore a false Christ that we were warned about in Mat. 24:24.

And just how do you know the book of Mormon was not just made up by Joseph Smith? Better read this excerpt from your own history book first.

Maybe some have seen this info before, but it is documented in a Mormon History book, that Joseph Smith's own mother publicly made a statement that seriously points to Joseph Smith actually being the author of the Book of Mormon:



Now remember Joseph Smith claims he received the golden plates in 1827 and claimed he translated them in 1829, which is five years after his own Mother bragged about the made up stories Joseph would entertain the family with, and the same kind of stories end up in the Book of Mormon. Now who do you suppose the real author of the Book of Mormon is?

While we are on the subject, in the Book of Mormon 132:38-39 it says it is okay to have multiple wives, while the footnote below verse 39 refers you to Jacob 2:24 where it says that the Lord says that Polygamy is abominable before Me. Now I ask again, how can Book of Mormon 132:38-39 be written by GOD, when he clearly said it was abominable to have more than one wife in Jacob 2:24.

Sounds to me like that portion of the Book of Mormon was definitely written by Joseph Smith, probably to white-wash the sin of Polygamy, because he had 2 wives at the time of the 1835 printing of the Pearl of Great Price, and went on to marry a total of 34 wives.

Now go to the original Pearl of Great Price originally printed between 1835-1876, (perhaps one of your elderly relatives still has a copy, look for a light brown hard back, reprints were frequently sold at Pioneer Days), go to section 101 and you will find it calls it "the crime of polygamy", thus Joseph Smith had to have known it. And to my knowledge he NEVER REPENTED OF IT. In fact he married 34 wives before he died and two of them that he married in 1843 were only 14 years old. It appears marrying multiple wives became an addiction to the sin of polygamy for Joseph Smith, because in 1843 he married a total of 17 wives. http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

Many years ago, I personally saw seven different paintings in the Mormon Museum in a dimmed hallway back in the far right corner with lights on the pictures. ALL depicting Joseph Smith receiving the golden plates differently because Joseph Smith had retold the story of receiving the golden plates differently so many times. I doubt if those paintings are still on display.

So no, you can never convince me that the Book of Mormon is of GOD, especially since the supposed Golden Plates have NEVER been on display. The evidence points to the Book of Mormon being spun out of the mind of Joseph Smith himself.

Good stuff! But still, you might be giving Joseph Smith too much credit. Yes, he did create some of the material found in the Book of Mormon but he also plagiarized from other sources.

 

[RickyZ]

Please note that the lake of fire will be well populated with nice, good, decent people all of whom denied Christ as their Savior. Those who consider themselves good enough as they are have little to no use for a Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That, my friend, is a very sad fact. Especially when they seek a savior and are led to the wrong ones. We should pray against that.

 

[Kerry]

Look people. I think I have said this before. The Mormon church is controlled by 3 or 4 families. They are extremely wealthy and have political pull because of their money. Some sources say that they sold the land to build Las Vegas to the mob controlled businessmen.

How many Mormons have been to the temple. Mormons hit like if you have been invited.

 

[RickyZ]

Hello VCO, I can guarantee that your Jesus is different from my Jesus, but we are both Christians. In fact I would bet that if you lined up 1,000 active, go-to-church-on-Sunday Christians you would get at least 300 different Jesus's.

Just look at the thread "once saved, always saved". There are probably 15 different Christians that have posted their beliefs about this simple subject, but you find that there is a war going on in the Christian churches about this simple subject. A literal verbal war. Now you take this seemingly clear cut "by grace we are saved, not of works lest we boast" subject and you get 1/4 of Christians that believe it, 1/4 that don't believe it, and 1/4 who believe parts of it, but not all of it, and you get 1/4 who don't know anything about it. In other words you would be hard pressed to get a consensus.

Now take a very difficult subject about Jesus being eternally begotten of the Father and what that means (this is where you get into the divinity question) and you certainly won't be able to get a consensus. Most Christians would be lost even to approach the subject. On the first level, you may be able to come close to a consensus, but even in this first level you will find division. The second level is where there will be some major divisions and the third level, forget it, the arguments can ge violent.

So you are chiding the Mormons for not believing the Jesus that you believe and immediately brand their Jesus a false Jesus.
You must be honest then and brand 90% of the Christian churches as believing in a false Jesus too. Seriously be honest and you know that I am right, just read this chat forum for proof. I love this chat forum but there is never consensus. Never.

So whose Jesus is the true Jesus. I believe I worship the true Jesus. I am sure you, VCO worship the true Jesus. I can tell you honestly that my Jesus is different from your Jesus. So which Jesus is true. I get all, and I mean all of my Christology from the Bible (KJV most of the time). I am sure you get your Christology from the Bible too. I believe the Holy Ghost has witnessed to me that Jesus is the Son of God, the Savior of all mankind that believe in him. I believe you have had the witness of the Holy Ghost that what you believe about Jesus is correct. So what do we do now? Who is teaching false doctrine and who is teaching the truth, we both seem to be reading and praying alike.

Lets look at our own Christian churches and their glaring divisions before we call the Mormons or any other Christian sect false teahers.

I know the Mormons teach some radical things about Jesus, but I also know they back up their teachings from the Bible. It is interesting to have discussions with them because they put away their other books and open the Bible, usually the KJV and they prove their point. It is tough sledding with those Mormons who have studied and know the Bible. Those who have not studied look like deer-in-the-headlights. Does that sound familiar about our churches.

Dah, johnluke, I stand in amen to your lesson. We all believe in the same God and seek the same Holy Spirit and read the same Word, and yet we become so oppositely polarized in what it means. Paul said to stick with what he taught, and that if anyone tried to teach us something else we are to refer to rule no. 1 which is to stick with what he taught. But evidently even that is up for debate.

There's a story I heard many years ago that I oft plagiarize about denominations. Goes something like this:

One day Jesus is walking down the street and a group of people bring a blind man to Him, asking for healing. Jesus spits on the ground, makes a little mud, puts some in the blind man’s eyes, and tells his friends to take him down to the river and wash. They and the crowd do just that, and when the man washes he is healed. So off this group goes, preaching ‘spit and wash at the river’.

Another day, Jesus comes across another blind man seeking healing. Jesus tells the man to go to the temple and pay his alms. The man and the crowd around him do, and he is healed. So off this group goes, preaching ‘alms and giving’.

On still another occasion, a blind man is brought to Jesus wanting to be healed. Jesus asks the man if he believes He can do it, the man says yes, and he is healed. So off this group goes, preaching ‘faith and belief’.

So now we have these three groups going at it, insisting you can only be saved by ‘spit and washing’, or only by ‘alms and giving’, or only by ‘faith and belief’ - each ‘denomination’ insisting that it is exclusive of all the others. But in debating about the blind men, they totally lose sight that there are many ways Jesus restores sight, and that they are not exclusive of each other. None of us has the whole picture... but we all have a piece of the jigsaw puzzle. So while we're trying to force feed our piece of the puzzle into the big picture, we should lissen up to what else is being said because, even with as much as we think we know, today is not the day to stop learning.

That said, as a religion it sucks demon butt, but salvation is an issue not with a group but with a human heart. And while I expect there are some among them who are truly saved, the number of innocent souls led to destruction makes me cry as I write this. Amen Roger, johnluke, may we all be united in prayer against that.

 

[johnluke]

Orignally posted by VCO:
You would be wrong about that. All mainline Christianity Churches, teach the SAME JESUS CHRIST, and that is that He is the Second Person in the Holy Trinity. All psuedo-Christian cults teach a different Jesus:

That was good research, but probably wasted, because as far as I know the Mormons first level saying is this:
We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. I believe this comes from their articles of faith. So you see, from a cursory, or first level reading, they believe in what all the Christian churches believe.
My friend even sometimes calls the 3 the Holy Trinity (unbiblical), but he says that most call them the Godhead (biblical).
He also told me that even within the Mormon church when it comes to the second level there are slight divisions, and when you get to the third level, there can be a lot of debate.

That is what I was telling you about the Christian churches. At a cursory glance, they all seem to be in unity. But you get to the second level and you will see division. When you get to the third level, there will be contention. Why do you think there are 600+ different Christian churches in the world.

Do a little more research and go just to the second level. Ask this question about the Holy Trinity:
Is there ever a time when the 3 members of the Trinity can be separate and distinct from each other?

 

[VCO]

Please note that the lake of fire will be well populated with nice, good, decent people all of whom denied Christ as their Savior. Those who consider themselves good enough as they are have little to no use for a Savior.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Good post, but I have one correction. They will have all denied Jesus as their LORD, which mean Master.

MANY want a Savior, but VERY FEW WANT A LORD.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Matthew 7:22-23 (NKJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; {That inner personal LOVE relationship where we willingly submit to HIM as LORD, which means MASTER.} depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

John 1:12-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. {Born Again by the Holy Spirit, having the LOVE for GOD poured out in their Hearts, Rom. 5:5.}

Receieve HIM as what?

Colossians 2:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him,

Romans 10:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess {It is only a PROFESSION and not a Confession, if you have not already received Him as LORD in your heart.} with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

NO, receiving Him as LORD and submitting, giving HIM the right to rule over your life is NOT works righteousness, because:

Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

AND what does that part of the free gift faith, our LOVE of GOD produce?

John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

1 John 5:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.


So no, we do not get to claim credit for our Love of GOD. That too is purely a work of the Holy Spirit.

We manifest our Love of GOD in the form of willing obedience, but GOD poured that LOVE for HIM into our hearts.

 

[VCO]

That was good research, but probably wasted, because as far as I know the Mormons first level saying is this:
We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit. I believe this comes from their articles of faith. So you see, from a cursory, or first level reading, they believe in what all the Christian churches believe.
My friend even sometimes calls the 3 the Holy Trinity (unbiblical), but he says that most call them the Godhead (biblical).
He also told me that even within the Mormon church when it comes to the second level there are slight divisions, and when you get to the third level, there can be a lot of debate.

That is what I was telling you about the Christian churches. At a cursory glance, they all seem to be in unity. But you get to the second level and you will see division. When you get to the third level, there will be contention. Why do you think there are 600+ different Christian churches in the world.

Do a little more research and go just to the second level. Ask this question about the Holy Trinity:
Is there ever a time when the 3 members of the Trinity can be separate and distinct from each other?

They USE our terminology but totally Change the MEANING of those terms:

TO THEM:

The Father was once a man who earned the right to become a GOD ruling over the Universe he Created, and so can any Mormon male who is good enough.

The Son is one of MANY spiritual Offsprings of that deified man called the FATHER, making them separate Deities. Therefore Jesus and Lucifer are brothers.

The Holy Ghost is another man that earned a deified spiritual body.

LDS: Father & Son are resurrected men with physical bodies. Holy Ghost is a separate man with a spiritual body. Three totally separate Gods. God is married. Other Gods for other worlds. (D&C 130:22; Teachings, pp. 345-346, pp. 370-373; Doctrines of Salvation,v.1, p. 10-12)

THERE, now you can look it up for yourself. CULTS frequently whitewash their lies by using Christian Terms and then totally changing the meaning.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Remember Christianity believes in the HOLY TRINITY who is one DEITY, made up of three personages, with separate functions within the ONE DEITY.

 

[dcontroversal]

The Mormons I've met were lovely people but spiritually confused. That's probably the mainstay.

Lost would be the grammatically correct non-political term.....their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible and if they trust into Mormon doctrine they will go to a liquid deprived place with slightly higher than normal temps......correct term...HELL!

 

[Flamingspirit]

Godly Love tells people the TRUTH.

Romans 5:5 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Matthew 24:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] See, I have told you beforehand.

1 John 4:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

2 Chronicles 19:10 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Whatever case comes to you from your brethren who dwell in their cities, whether of bloodshed or offenses against law or commandment, against statutes or ordinances, you shall warn them, lest they trespass against the LORD and wrath come upon you and your brethren. Do this, and you will not be guilty.

2 John 1:9-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
[SUP]11 [/SUP] for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Godly love is loving your neighbor as yourself. Why make it complicated.

Whoever can't do that, we are to separate from.

 

[johnluke]

Originally posted by maxwel:
Don't preach "assumptions" you can't back up.

Go and test your hypothesis.

See for yourself.

But... you won't.

: )

Maxwell, this is a Christian chat room. The hypothesis has been observed daily by myself as I communicate with other Christians in this forum. Now I agree, I have not seen 1000 posters in the chatroom, but certainly there are enough that a clear conclusion can be drawn from a study made of my hypothesis.

So go to any thread in this "bible discussion forum" and you will be rather dismayed at the level of disunity that thrives in just this little chat room. I will tell you that is because we are discussing issues on the second and third and maybe even other levels of a particular issue and this type of discussion opens us up to a close scrutiny of what we really believe beyond the cursory level. Sometimes it is ugly. So pick any one and you can see what I am talking about.

Now, how do Mormons fit into this discussion. That's what this thread is about. Mormons are quite a bit more radical than most Chirstians, I admit, but they suggest that the "Christian church" fell away from the real biblical Jesus starting around 110 AD about the time the original apostles were killed by the world. When the Bishops took over the leadership, the first few generations, who were taught by the apostles themselves stayed pretty close to the original, but soon power and glory and money won the day and the leadership of the church went with the world, especially about the time of Constantine,
310 AD. At Nicea the culmination of this apostacy took an abrupt step forward when the Bishops bowed down to Constantine and decided that the Nicean creed was more valuable than the Bible in describing the nature of God and his Son and the Holy Spirit. They did it for the sake of unity and if they didn't vote yes, they lost their Bishopbric and all their power and money and prestige. They could not refuse even for the sake of Christ, who got mangled in the creed.

To them, it has all been pretty much downhill since then. They look at things differenty than we do for the most part, but there Christology is pretty founded in the Bible. Go sit with one that is steeped in their apologetics, not an 18 year old missionary, all they do is teach and bear testimony and baptize. I know, I can spin them around easily. But find a Mormon scholar and you will find that their biblical arguments are pretty convincing. Even the radical ones. It is a very interesting discussion. I can at least see how they come to a conclusion about what they believe as wrong as I believe some are.

So do the test on the forum.

 

[VCO]

Lost would be the grammatically correct non-political term.....their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible and if they trust into Mormon doctrine they will go to a liquid deprived place with slightly higher than normal temps......correct term...HELL!

I wonder if that Mormon under garment is made of asbestos?

 

[dcontroversal]

I wonder if that Mormon under garment is made of asbestos?

Well even if it was and they had on sun block 10 million...it would make no difference HAHAH

 

[VCO]

Godly love is loving your neighbor as yourself. Why make it complicated.

Whoever can't do that, we are to separate from.

John 14:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

2 Timothy 3:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

2 Corinthians 13:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them—

Galatians 5:19-21 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Thessalonians 5:14 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And we exhort you, brothers: warn those who are irresponsible, comfort the discouraged, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

1 Corinthians 11:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

1 Timothy 1:19-20 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (ASV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] If any man loveth not the Lord, let him be anathema. Maranatha.

Galatians 1:8-9 (ASV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach unto you any gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] As we have said before, so say I now again, if any man preacheth unto you any gospel other than that which ye received, let him be anathema.