Justice...what justice

[Pottyone]

I was chatting to an atheist, lawyer friend yesterday who was giving out about the terrible situation in Gaza and the horrendous suffering that this conflict has caused. His sympathies lay with the Palestinians, which is fair enough, but he kept on saying that he struggled with the injustice of the Palestinian situation.
That got me thinking about the concept of justice from the atheist point of view. If you are an atheist where does the concept of justice come from? If there is no God and we are simply a product of some evolutionary mechanism where the fittest survive, why should we as a species have any interest in justice? Surely its a case of the strongest will prevail, for the good of the species as a whole? Where does the concept of "innocent victim" come from in an atheistic world? Innocent of what? Badness? Sin? Surely not...just wrong place wrong time??? The term innocent implies that on the other other side of the equation there are "guilty" parties, but guilty of what? Crimes against humanity? Again where does this sense of wrongdoing come from if there is no ultimate morality?
But then you see, there is a God and each one of us deep down knows that, for we cry out for Justice.
Gen 3:22

 

[Esanta]

I was chatting to an atheist, lawyer friend yesterday who was giving out about the terrible situation in Gaza and the horrendous suffering that this conflict has caused. His sympathies lay with the Palestinians, which is fair enough, but he kept on saying that he struggled with the injustice of the Palestinian situation.
That got me thinking about the concept of justice from the atheist point of view. If you are an atheist where does the concept of justice come from? If there is no God and we are simply a product of some evolutionary mechanism where the fittest survive, why should we as a species have any interest in justice? Surely its a case of the strongest will prevail, for the good of the species as a whole? Where does the concept of "innocent victim" come from in an atheistic world? Innocent of what? Badness? Sin? Surely not...just wrong place wrong time??? The term innocent implies that on the other other side of the equation there are "guilty" parties, but guilty of what? Crimes against humanity? Again where does this sense of wrongdoing come from if there is no ultimate morality?
But then you see, there is a God and each one of us deep down knows that, for we cry out for Justice.
Gen 3:22

The theory of natural selection applies to organic mutations, not the values of human civilization, so it is misframed to say atheists have no need, want, or basis for justice simply because physical mutations either help or hinder an organism's survival.

It could be said that the concept of guilt can be applied by atheists in the same manner in which a Christian might apply it; the party who has wronged another is the guilty party, and the party who has not wronged another is not the guilty party. For instance, the Palestinian mother, tending to her child, looks up after hearing a deafening whistle, and is then blown to smitherines along with her baby. The innocent party is the mother, tending to her child, while the guilty party is the one who dropped the bomb.

Why?

Well, I would think that would be obvious to any person. And I'm certain you aren't as ignorant as you let on.Particularly from your lawyer friend's perspective, you must recognize why the bomber would be guilty and the mother innocent?? Surely?

And if his sympathies lay mostly with the Palestinians, it might be because there have been over 2000 of them killed, which is much more than Israel's civilian death toll. As humans, we empathize with emotions, grief, heartache, suffering, and with oppression and victimization and all sorts of feelings.

 

[Sirk]

The theory of natural selection applies to organic mutations, not the values of human civilization, so it is misframed to say atheists have no need, want, or basis for justice simply because physical mutations either help or hinder an organism's survival.

It could be said that the concept of guilt can be applied by atheists in the same manner in which a Christian might apply it; the party who has wronged another is the guilty party, and the party who has not wronged another is not the guilty party. For instance, the Palestinian mother, tending to her child, looks up after hearing a deafening whistle, and is then blown to smitherines along with her baby. The innocent party is the mother, tending to her child, while the guilty party is the one who dropped the bomb.

Why?

Well, I would think that would be obvious to any person. And I'm certain you aren't as ignorant as you let on.Particularly from your lawyer friend's perspective, you must recognize why the bomber would be guilty and the mother innocent?? Surely?

And if his sympathies lay mostly with the Palestinians, it might be because there have been over 2000 of them killed, which is much more than Israel's civilian death toll. As humans, we empathize with emotions, grief, heartache, suffering, and with oppression and victimization and all sorts of feelings.

Many more German civilians died in the carpet bombing during ww2 than allied citizens. Were they innocent? Maybe some were, but the population at large supported a murderous regime.....just like many Palestinians voted in and support a murderous regime, that purposely targets civilians and non combatants. In fact, they prefer to kill and maim innocent people. It is after all, what jihad is all about....conversion or death.

 

[Esanta]

Many more German civilians died in the carpet bombing during ww2 than allied citizens. Were they innocent? Maybe some were, but the population at large supported a murderous regime.....just like many Palestinians voted in and support a murderous regime, that purposely targets civilians and non combatants. In fact, they prefer to kill and maim innocent people. It is after all, what jihad is all about....conversion or death.

Of course they were innocent. Just because you use the word 'German' - and I know how you lot like to use that word as some automatic indication of the evil of whomever you choose to condemn - does not mean these people weren't innocent. If we want to lay blame for the murder of civilians by some soldiers following a bad governmental policy at the feet of the entire population then I can think of a few hundred million civilians a little closer to home who might suffer the wrath of your logic to far greater degrees than Israel or Palestine do.

But I don't blame an entire population of civilians for the bad decisions of soldiers or of governments, and I don't want to misrepresent an entire religion of people as warmongers based on the re-definition of a religious tenet by those opposed to that religion.

You need to wake up.

 

[Sirk]

Of course they were innocent. Just because you use the word 'German' - and I know how you lot like to use that word as some automatic indication of the evil of whomever you choose to condemn - does not mean these people weren't innocent. If we want to lay blame for the murder of civilians by some soldiers following a bad governmental policy at the feet of the entire population then I can think of a few hundred million civilians a little closer to home who might suffer the wrath of your logic to far greater degrees than Israel or Palestine do.

But I don't blame an entire population of civilians for the bad decisions of soldiers or of governments, and I don't want to misrepresent an entire religion of people as warmongers based on the re-definition of a religious tenet by those opposed to that religion.

You need to wake up.

You support a mindset of "religion" that has no desire to join the brotherhood of man, nor to contribute meaningful things to it, but to convert it to their religion thru the use of terror and fear of death. History has s shown time and time again, that evil has to be confronted. If Islam comes to your door and if you aren't already, they will require you and your family to convert or die. How you can support such an ideology is beyond me.....except that you are one of its adherents.

 

[Esanta]

You support a mindset of "religion" that has no desire to join the brotherhood of man, nor to contribute meaningful things to it, but to convert it to their religion thru the use of terror and fear of death. History has s shown time and time again, that evil has to be confronted. If Islam comes to your door and if you aren't already, they will require you and your family to convert or die. How you can support such an ideology is beyond me.

Sirk, you accuse over a billion people of crimes committed by a small minority numbering in the thousands, then use those bigoted accusations as the sole justification of your call for worldwide unification against every one of those billion people.

 

[Sirk]

Sirk, you accuse over a billion people of crimes committed by a small minority numbering in the thousands, then use those bigoted accusations as the sole foundation for your call for worldwide unification against every one of those billion people.

They flew airplanes in my cities to kill innocent people. They are currently attempting to aquire nuclear weapons and will without hesitation, drop one on a western city. Even Egypt and Saudi Arabia is on the side of Israel.....

 

[Esanta]

They flew airplanes in my cities to kill innocent people. They are currently attempting to aquire nuclear weapons and will without hesitation, drop one on a western city. Even Egypt and Saudi Arabia is on the side of Israel.....

Just like 'we' dropped bombs out of drones and exterminated entire communities, hundreds of thousands of innocents in recompense for two buildings and 3000 casualties.

But who are 'they'? And who are 'we', Sirk? Do you represent the opinion of every member of the state wherein you reside? And do 'they' represent the opinions of a billion Muslims?

I certainly don't condone my government ordering the mass execution of innocent people and the deaths of those Iraqi an Afghan men, women and children saddens me just as much as all the deaths in those two towers. I've got over 20,000 Western deaths to feel sad about, and closer to a million Eastern ones.

 

[Anonimous]

Of course they were innocent. Just because you use the word 'German' - and I know how you lot like to use that word as some automatic indication of the evil of whomever you choose to condemn - does not mean these people weren't innocent. If we want to lay blame for the murder of civilians by some soldiers following a bad governmental policy at the feet of the entire population then I can think of a few hundred million civilians a little closer to home who might suffer the wrath of your logic to far greater degrees than Israel or Palestine do.

But I don't blame an entire population of civilians for the bad decisions of soldiers or of governments, and I don't want to misrepresent an entire religion of people as warmongers based on the re-definition of a religious tenet by those opposed to that religion.

You need to wake up.

Not all Germans were Nazi's...oh, brother. There were German citizens that were against Hitler and the Nazi's. There were also Germans who assisted the Jewish people escape. A people group can't be lumped into just one neat little package.

 

[Sirk]

Just like 'we' dropped bombs out of drones and exterminated entire communities, hundreds of thousands of innocents in recompense for two buildings and 3000 casualties.

But who are 'they'? And who are 'we', Sirk? Do you represent the opinion of every member of the state wherein you reside? And do 'they' represent the opinions of a billion Muslims?

I certainly don't condone my government ordering the mass execution of innocent people and the deaths of those Iraqi an Afghan men, women and children saddens me just as much as all the deaths in those two towers. I've got over 20,000 Western deaths to feel sad about, and closer to a million Eastern ones.

....and those million deaths lie squarely at the feet of a religion that keeps its people in poverty and ignorance while squandering a natural resource for profit and turning that profit into missiles and bombs, with the end result being a worldwide caliphate... that kills anyone or anything that gets in it's way. Do me a favor and tell me a significant contribution that the "religion of peace" has given to the world.....besides heroin production, women genitalia mutilation and uneducated masses of poor people.

 

[Percepi]

If there is no God and we are simply a product of some evolutionary mechanism where the fittest survive, why should we as a species have any interest in justice?

I don't know exactly why or how, but that sense of justice does exist.

If there is no God and we are simply a product of some evolutionary mechanism where the fittest survive, why should we as a species have any interest in justice? Surely its a case of the strongest will prevail, for the good of the species as a whole? Where does the concept of "innocent victim" come from in an atheistic world? Innocent of what? Badness? Sin? Surely not...just wrong place wrong time??? The term innocent implies that on the other other side of the equation there are "guilty" parties, but guilty of what? Crimes against humanity? Again where does this sense of wrongdoing come from if there is no ultimate morality?

It's likely that our compassion for others is a bi-product of the very thing that allowed us to thrive in the past. Cooperation between people in the same species can be very advantageous, and it's one of the things that allowed us to thrive so much. Obviously, the result is not perfect because we still have people who lack compassion - but we have enough to have thrived despite our (as a species) violent tendencies.

But to answer your question, where does justice come from if it doesn't come from God? How can we say something is right or wrong? We, as humans, decide what is right and wrong. However, we base these decisions on our emotions. Again, it's not a perfect system, but it's where our morality stems. There are numerous factors in play here, many of them stemming from society. What might seem perfectly okay here might be incredibly wrong somewhere else.

Very good question. I wish I could answer it better, but it's a hard question to answer. It would take me hours to figure out how to sufficiently word a more in depth response.

 

[Sirk]

Not all Germans were Nazi's...oh, brother. There were German citizens that were against Hitler and the Nazi's. There were also Germans who assisted the Jewish people escape. A people group can't be lumped into just one neat little package.

All Germans may not have been nazi's but you need to do a little critical thinking on the subject of how many "common folk" in nazi Germany it took to support the thousands of death camps who knew exactly what was going on but turned a blind eye.....for instance, oven repairmen, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, doctors, lawyers military personnel....etc etc.

 

[Sirk]

If you attacked me and brought your kids with you and they got killed in the crossfire ....that's on you not me.

 

[Billyd]

Our life here on earth is a tiny fraction of our eternal life. I ask you this simple question. What do you think God does with the innocent ones that die at the hand of the guilty? Maybe our answer lies there?

 

[Esanta]

....and those million deaths lie squarely at the feet of a religion that keeps its people in poverty and ignorance while squandering a natural resource for profit and turning that profit into missiles and bombs, with the end result being a worldwide caliphate... that kills anyone or anything that gets in it's way. Do me a favor and tell me a significant contribution that the "religion of peace" has given to the world.....besides heroin production, women genitalia mutilation and uneducated masses of poor people.

So, the people that didn't kill a million people are responsible for killing a million people? Is that what you're saying? And, the people who don't own most of the oil anymore ''squander'' that oil for profit even though America sell that oil for profit and oil is a for-profit business thus it is not ''squandered''? And, those same Muslim people who don't own the oil anymore, use their non-existent oil profits and turn that profit into missiles, when America's oil income actually contributes to its military spending that is larger than the next ten countries combined and larger than any middle eastern country by extraordinary orders of magnitude? And Muslims, all 1 billion of them, are part of a worldwide caliphate of total war hell bent on destroying everything that opposes them when 93% of them don't support war and nowhere near even 1% are suspected ''terrorists''? And, they all cut off their women's clitorises even though most Muslims live in Southeast Asia (while most of the FGM occurrences are in Africa) and several of the countries with the highest rates of FGM are recognized as predominantly Christian nations?

And, Muslims in hot zones are massively uneducated (maybe something to do with getting bombed for the last 10 years?), while less than 65% of Americans pass their high school diploma and 21% of American adults can't even read to 5th grade standards, which, relatively, is worse than the UAE, who get free, extremely high class education from primary to tertiary and doctorates and whose women make up the vast majority of students?

Yea, Sirk, makes TOTAL sense.

 

[Sirk]

So, the people that didn't kill a million people are responsible for killing a million people? Is that what you're saying? And, the people who don't own most of the oil anymore ''squander'' that oil for profit even though America sell that oil for profit and oil is a for-profit business thus it is not ''squandered''? And, those same Muslim people who don't own the oil anymore, use their non-existent oil profits and turn that profit into missiles, when America's oil income actually contributes to its military spending that is larger than the next ten countries combined and larger than any middle eastern country by extraordinary orders of magnitude? And Muslims, all 1 billion of them, are part of a worldwide caliphate of total war hell bent on destroying everything that opposes them when 93% of them don't support war and nowhere near even 1% are suspected ''terrorists''? And, they all cut off their women's clitorises even though most Muslims live in Southeast Asia (while most of the FGM occurrences are in Africa) and several of the countries with the highest rates of FGM are recognized as predominantly Christian nations?

And, Muslims in hot zones are massively uneducated (maybe something to do with getting bombed for the last 10 years?), while less than 65% of Americans pass their high school diploma and 21% of American adults can't even read to 5th grade standards, which, relatively, is worse than the UAE, who get free, extremely high class education from primary to tertiary and doctorates and whose women make up the vast majority of students?

Yea, Sirk, makes TOTAL sense.

Some statistics for you on the muslim worlds support of Sharia law. Interesting thats its near 99% in support of Sharia in Afganistan.. Do you live under sharia law esanta? Do you want too?

I also find it telling on your page that you list yourself as "not Christian". In the interest of intellectual honesty...why don't you tell us what you are for.... instead of what you are against? It's easy to read between the lines but it's better if a person is honest about who they are... vs who they aren't.

 

[Sirk]

oops..forgot the link.
Chapter 1: Beliefs About Sharia | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

 

[Esanta]

Some statistics for you on the muslim worlds support of Sharia law. Interesting thats its near 99% in support of Sharia in Afganistan.. Do you live under sharia law esanta? Do you want too?

I also find it telling on your page that you list yourself as "not Christian". In the interest of intellectual honesty...why don't you tell us what you are for.... instead of what you are against? It's easy to read between the lines but it's better if a person is honest about who they are... vs who they aren't.

Im certainly not anything you could define, Sirk. If you want my personality and character, look at my posts, instead of asking me for a label. Do you even know what Sharia is to most Muslims?

It's fairly clear you didn't even bother to read the article, which I've just done.

Support for sharia as the official law of the land also is widespread among Muslims in the Middle East-North Africa region – especially in Iraq (91%) and the Palestinian territories (89%). Only in Lebanon does opinion lean in the opposite direction: 29% of Lebanese Muslims favor making sharia the law of the land, while 66% oppose it.
Support for making sharia the official legal code of the country is relatively weak across Central Asia as well as Southern and Eastern Europe. Fewer than half of Muslims in all the countries surveyed in these regions favor making sharia their country’s official law. Support for sharia as the law of the land is greatest in Russia (42%); respondents in Russia were asked if sharia should be made the official law in the country’s ethnic-Muslim republics. Elsewhere in Central Asia and Southern and Eastern Europe, about one-in-three or fewer say sharia should be made the law of the land, including just 10% in Kazakhstan and 8% in Azerbaijan.

......



Among Muslims who support making sharia the law of the land, most do not believe that it should be applied to non-Muslims. Only in five of 21 countries where this follow-up question was asked do at least half say all citizens should be subject to Islamic law.
The belief that sharia should extend to non-Muslims is most widespread in the Middle East and North Africa, where at least four-in-ten Muslims in all countries except Iraq (38%) and Morocco (29%) hold this opinion. Egyptian Muslims (74%) are the most likely to say it should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, while 58% in Jordan hold this view.

 

[Sirk]

Im certainly not anything you could define, Sirk. If you want my personality and character, look at my posts, instead of asking me for a label. Do you even know what Sharia is to most Muslims?

It's fairly clear you didn't even bother to read the article, which I've just done.

Support for sharia as the official law of the land also is widespread among Muslims in the Middle East-North Africa region – especially in Iraq (91%) and the Palestinian territories (89%). Only in Lebanon does opinion lean in the opposite direction: 29% of Lebanese Muslims favor making sharia the law of the land, while 66% oppose it.
Support for making sharia the official legal code of the country is relatively weak across Central Asia as well as Southern and Eastern Europe. Fewer than half of Muslims in all the countries surveyed in these regions favor making sharia their country’s official law. Support for sharia as the law of the land is greatest in Russia (42%); respondents in Russia were asked if sharia should be made the official law in the country’s ethnic-Muslim republics. Elsewhere in Central Asia and Southern and Eastern Europe, about one-in-three or fewer say sharia should be made the law of the land, including just 10% in Kazakhstan and 8% in Azerbaijan.

......



Among Muslims who support making sharia the law of the land, most do not believe that it should be applied to non-Muslims. Only in five of 21 countries where this follow-up question was asked do at least half say all citizens should be subject to Islamic law.
The belief that sharia should extend to non-Muslims is most widespread in the Middle East and North Africa, where at least four-in-ten Muslims in all countries except Iraq (38%) and Morocco (29%) hold this opinion. Egyptian Muslims (74%) are the most likely to say it should apply to Muslims and non-Muslims alike, while 58% in Jordan hold this view.

Oh I read it...".most muslims don't believe Sharia should apply to non-muslims".....except the one who really matter...the ones who implement it and control it. I'm sure a a lot of Gazans would like to have a pool hall without fear of it being blown up by their "leaders". But I digress...such is the nature of an evil regime that worships death and control of the populace thru fear.

 

[Anonimous]

All Germans may not have been nazi's but you need to do a little critical thinking on the subject of how many "common folk" in nazi Germany it took to support the thousands of death camps who knew exactly what was going on but turned a blind eye.....for instance, oven repairmen, plumbers, electricians, carpenters, doctors, lawyers military personnel....etc etc.

Agreed...but my point is that there were Germans who helped. I am full aware that many were very aware of what was being done around them and ignored it.