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didymos
Guest
It does hold some water, but this particular Muslim makes the mistake of taking the facts at hand and adding more meaning to them than he has any reason to do.
The Apostolic Library has played host to Islamic texts for hundreds of years.
What we see in the most recent faith summit is not the influence of Islam so much as it is the influence of Post-Modernism.
The Apostolic Library has played host to Islamic texts for hundreds of years.
What we see in the most recent faith summit is not the influence of Islam so much as it is the influence of Post-Modernism.
Kinda like we should trust catholics about child slavery crime in the Vatican, yes?
Haha, maybe they thought it was assumed that if you go to the Vatican you understand that their prescription for the needs of the world is the dominion of the Church.
Yes, you should. Because we are just as distressed and angrier. We are seeing the changes, priests being defrocked across the country for their crimes. The Vatican has given over documents to the UN and the Hague. Unfortunately, people who love a scandal don't want to see it end and demand more from the Vatican than it can give. The Vatican has apologized, is reforming the entire Curia, and is now bringing in the Inquisition to begin an audit and investigation into any complaints made.Kinda like we should trust catholics about child slavery crime in the Vatican, yes?
Seconded. Rank and file Catholics do not harbor a cultish, circle the wagons sort of mentality. Many are very forthright about the problems within their church.
My evidence though is purely anecdotal.
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didymos
Guest
No, they're defrocking THEMSELVES, and that's the whole problem; they should keep them on.
Tell me, Thomist, what would the Inquisitors do if they caught someone praying this prayer? Would they try him for heresy & take him to the rack?:
O, Son of my God, and my blessed Savior; as a beggar, all wounded and sore, presents himself before a great king, so do I present myself before thee, who art the King of heaven and earth. From the lofty throne on which thou sittest, disdain not, I implore thee, to cast thine eyes on me, a poor sinner. God has made thee so rich that thou mightest assist the poor, and has constituted thee King of Glory in order that thou mightest relieve the miserable. Behold me then, and pity me: behold me and abandon me not, until thou seest me changed from a sinner into a saint. I know well that I merit nothing; nay more, that I deserve, on account of my ingratitude, to be deprived of the graces that, through thy means, I have already received from God.
But thou, who are the King of Glory, seekest not merits, but miseries, in order to help the needy. But who is more needy than I? O, exalted Son, well do I know that thou, who are King of the universe, art already my king; yet I am determined to dedicate myself more especially to thy service, in order that thou mayest dispose of me as thou pleasest. Therefore, do I address thee in the words of one of my ancestors in the faith: “do thou govern me, O my King, and leave me not to myself.”
Command me; employ me as thou wilt, and chastise me when I do not obey; for the chastisements that come from thy hands will be to me pledges of salvation. I would rather be thy servant than the ruler of the earth. I am Thine; save me. Accept me, O Jesus, for thine own, and as thine, take charge of my salvation. I will no longer be mine; to thee I do give myself. If, during the time past I have served thee ill, and lost so many occasions of honoring thee, for the future I will be one of thy most loving and faithful servants. I am determined that from this day forward no one shall surpass me in honoring and loving thee, my most amiable King. This I promise; and this, with thy help, I hope to execute. Amen.
Nothing wrong with that prayer. It is a prayer of submission. And it does not matter who wrote it, for it is a prayer asking for strength to submit to God's will. So no Inquisitor should have a problem with it.
By the way, the Inquisition of today is not the Inquisition of yesterday.
By the way, the Inquisition of today is not the Inquisition of yesterday.
Atwood asked:
Tell me, Thomist, what would the Inquisitors do if they caught someone praying this prayer? Would they try him for heresy & take him to the rack?:
O, Son of my God, and my blessed Savior; as a beggar, all wounded and sore, presents himself before a great king, so do I present myself before thee, who art the King of heaven and earth. From the lofty throne on which thou sittest, disdain not, I implore thee, to cast thine eyes on me, a poor sinner. God has made thee so rich that thou mightest assist the poor, and has constituted thee King of Glory in order that thou mightest relieve the miserable. Behold me then, and pity me: behold me and abandon me not, until thou seest me changed from a sinner into a saint. I know well that I merit nothing; nay more, that I deserve, on account of my ingratitude, to be deprived of the graces that, through thy means, I have already received from God.
But thou, who are the King of Glory, seekest not merits, but miseries, in order to help the needy. But who is more needy than I? O, exalted Son, well do I know that thou, who are King of the universe, art already my king; yet I am determined to dedicate myself more especially to thy service, in order that thou mayest dispose of me as thou pleasest. Therefore, do I address thee in the words of one of my ancestors in the faith: “do thou govern me, O my King, and leave me not to myself.”
Command me; employ me as thou wilt, and chastise me when I do not obey; for the chastisements that come from thy hands will be to me pledges of salvation. I would rather be thy servant than the ruler of the earth. I am Thine; save me. Accept me, O Jesus, for thine own, and as thine, take charge of my salvation. I will no longer be mine; to thee I do give myself. If, during the time past I have served thee ill, and lost so many occasions of honoring thee, for the future I will be one of thy most loving and faithful servants. I am determined that from this day forward no one shall surpass me in honoring and loving thee, my most amiable King. This I promise; and this, with thy help, I hope to execute. Amen.
Thomist replied in his usual pleasant tone:
Thomist, pardon me for asking you this.
The above prayer was hypothetical.
The one below is the actual prayer.
What do you think of this one?:
"O, Mother of my God, and my blessed Lady Mary; as a beggar, all wounded and sore, presents himself before a great queen, so do I present myself before thee, who art the Queen of heaven and earth. From the lofty throne on which thou sittest, disdain not, I implore thee, to cast thine eyes on me, a poor sinner. God has made thee so rich that thou mightest assist the poor, and has constituted thee Queen of Mercy in order that thou mightest relieve the miserable. Behold me then, and pity me: behold me and abandon me not, until thou seest me changed from a sinner into a saint. I know well that I merit nothing; nay more, that I deserve, on account of my ingratitude, to be deprived of the graces that, through thy means, I have already received from God.
"But thou, who are the Queen of Mercy, seekest not merits, but miseries, in order to help the needy. But who is more needy than I? O, exalted Virgin, well do I know that thou, who are Queen of the universe, art already my queen; yet I am determined to dedicate myself more especially to thy service, in order that thou mayest dispose of me as thou pleasest. Therefore, do I address thee in the words of St. Bonaventure: “do thou govern me, O my Queen, and leave me not to myself.”
"Command me; employ me as thou wilt, and chastise me when I do not obey; for the chastisements that come from thy hands will be to me pledges of salvation. I would rather be thy servant than the ruler of the earth. I am Thine; save me. Accept me, O Mary, for thine own, and as thine, take charge of my salvation. I will no longer be mine; to thee I do give myself. If, during the time past I have served thee ill, and lost so many occasions of honoring thee, for the future I will be one of thy most loving and faithful servants. I am determined that from this day forward no one shall surpass me in honoring and loving thee, my most amiable Queen. This I promise; and this, with thy help, I hope to execute. Amen."
Is the above idolatry?
Tell me, Thomist, what would the Inquisitors do if they caught someone praying this prayer? Would they try him for heresy & take him to the rack?:
O, Son of my God, and my blessed Savior; as a beggar, all wounded and sore, presents himself before a great king, so do I present myself before thee, who art the King of heaven and earth. From the lofty throne on which thou sittest, disdain not, I implore thee, to cast thine eyes on me, a poor sinner. God has made thee so rich that thou mightest assist the poor, and has constituted thee King of Glory in order that thou mightest relieve the miserable. Behold me then, and pity me: behold me and abandon me not, until thou seest me changed from a sinner into a saint. I know well that I merit nothing; nay more, that I deserve, on account of my ingratitude, to be deprived of the graces that, through thy means, I have already received from God.
But thou, who are the King of Glory, seekest not merits, but miseries, in order to help the needy. But who is more needy than I? O, exalted Son, well do I know that thou, who are King of the universe, art already my king; yet I am determined to dedicate myself more especially to thy service, in order that thou mayest dispose of me as thou pleasest. Therefore, do I address thee in the words of one of my ancestors in the faith: “do thou govern me, O my King, and leave me not to myself.”
Command me; employ me as thou wilt, and chastise me when I do not obey; for the chastisements that come from thy hands will be to me pledges of salvation. I would rather be thy servant than the ruler of the earth. I am Thine; save me. Accept me, O Jesus, for thine own, and as thine, take charge of my salvation. I will no longer be mine; to thee I do give myself. If, during the time past I have served thee ill, and lost so many occasions of honoring thee, for the future I will be one of thy most loving and faithful servants. I am determined that from this day forward no one shall surpass me in honoring and loving thee, my most amiable King. This I promise; and this, with thy help, I hope to execute. Amen.
Thomist replied in his usual pleasant tone:
Thomist, pardon me for asking you this.
The above prayer was hypothetical.
The one below is the actual prayer.
What do you think of this one?:
"O, Mother of my God, and my blessed Lady Mary; as a beggar, all wounded and sore, presents himself before a great queen, so do I present myself before thee, who art the Queen of heaven and earth. From the lofty throne on which thou sittest, disdain not, I implore thee, to cast thine eyes on me, a poor sinner. God has made thee so rich that thou mightest assist the poor, and has constituted thee Queen of Mercy in order that thou mightest relieve the miserable. Behold me then, and pity me: behold me and abandon me not, until thou seest me changed from a sinner into a saint. I know well that I merit nothing; nay more, that I deserve, on account of my ingratitude, to be deprived of the graces that, through thy means, I have already received from God.
"But thou, who are the Queen of Mercy, seekest not merits, but miseries, in order to help the needy. But who is more needy than I? O, exalted Virgin, well do I know that thou, who are Queen of the universe, art already my queen; yet I am determined to dedicate myself more especially to thy service, in order that thou mayest dispose of me as thou pleasest. Therefore, do I address thee in the words of St. Bonaventure: “do thou govern me, O my Queen, and leave me not to myself.”
"Command me; employ me as thou wilt, and chastise me when I do not obey; for the chastisements that come from thy hands will be to me pledges of salvation. I would rather be thy servant than the ruler of the earth. I am Thine; save me. Accept me, O Mary, for thine own, and as thine, take charge of my salvation. I will no longer be mine; to thee I do give myself. If, during the time past I have served thee ill, and lost so many occasions of honoring thee, for the future I will be one of thy most loving and faithful servants. I am determined that from this day forward no one shall surpass me in honoring and loving thee, my most amiable Queen. This I promise; and this, with thy help, I hope to execute. Amen."
Is the above idolatry?
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Yes, it is. I've never read nor seen that prayer. But realize there are many prayers written in the Catholic Church which are not supported by it. Just as I'm sure there are many prayers of Methodists written that the Methodist Church would not approve of. However, yes the above is idolatry. I've never stated that there are not "Catholics" who worship Mary. I've only stated that those who do so are neither Catholic nor Christian.
I rejoice that you disapprove. As I have said before, I recognize all Christians as my brothers, defining Christians as those who trust the real Lord Jesus as Savior, no matter what denomination they are in, RCC or whatever.
But Thomist that mariolatry prayer was written by St. Alphonsus Liguori, an RCC bishop of the 1700's. Ligouri was canonized saint and proclaimed a doctor of the Church. You may find this prayer in Liguori's book, The Glories of Mary (Brooklyn: The Redemptionist Fathers, 1931), pp. 45-46.
Have you read the Last Will & Testament of Pope John Paul II:
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Yes, I have read John Paul II's Will and also many of his encyclicals. He's a Christian, without a doubt. He is devoted to the honor of our Lady, but never oversteps, and is extremely careful in making sure he does not overstep. In one of his encyclicals, he even comments on this saying, "Mary through Christ on the Cross becomes the Mother of the Church and therefore, our Mother. She watches over us, delivers our prayers, petitions for all mankind, seeking the salvation of souls. For Mary is like a compass, always directing us towards Christ, who is the magnetic north of the Universe. However, some do not understand and get lost. For some they only see Mary, and to those they find themselves lost without hope, and this pains her. Through Mary, many find Christ, who is the true object of our worship, for He is God Himself. This has ever been the position of this most holy of all saints, she like a compass points us directly to Christ."