What does the Law REALLY say?

[cfultz3]

You did not answer the question.

Are the Laws written on the heart of a believer the same laws that God gave to Israel at Sinai?

-JGIG

My conscious is in agreement to the Law which says: 'do not'. How then am I to fulfill God's known will?

Do I go to the written Law and say, "Here! It says, 'do not'' and then obey that written Law through my flesh?

Or

Do I agree with the Spirit which says to me, 'God's will is that you do not steal that money because it causes harm to another'. So, the Spirit spoke to me God's will and then by love I will not steal because it offends God and causes harm to another.

I believe that the Spirit just convicted me by that which God spoke. The written Law says not to steal. The Spirit says love will cause no harm and thus, steal. They are the same Law. The method is different. God is eternally the same and His Will will never change.

We either serve God's Law physically or spiritually and we all know what happens to those who do through the flesh.

 

[psychomom]

Obedience to the Law by the flesh is never His way for He says in Deuteronomy 30:11-20
Now what I am commanding (the ten words) you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Not to mention what He spoke through Moses in Deuteronomy 6:5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

He did say 'with all your strength', didn't He?

just to follow up on this prophecy of Moses...

Rom. 10:5-13
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.
But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

i won't even get into the necessity of grounding Biblical imperatives in Biblical indicatives...

 

[seed_time_harvest]

God's purpose for the Law

Exodus 19:5-6

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

Elin, perhaps you are under the curse of the law because you do not have Christ to forgive you, for me, I depend on Christ so I am not under the curse of the law, I am under grace. Through that grace I am given I love my Savior and because of that love I do what my Savior asks, I try my best. My Savior told me I am never going to do that perfectly, I will always need Him, but when He tells me to try, that is what I do.

I guess I'm having some difficulty understanding clearly what is being said.
Sounds like you are saying you are under law,but at least you are trying and since you tried,now GOD will give you grace:but what about faith over doing?Don't you think GOD prefers faith rather than you needing to help GOD by showing him you want to help?
See how bad that sounds,but it sounds like that is what you are saying.
A person trying to lift up one finger to help is just polluting GODs finished work.
REST and accept GODs grace.

 

[cfultz3]

i won't even get into the necessity of grounding Biblical imperatives in Biblical indicatives...

That sounds like fun.....please do

 

[BradC]

May I point out one detail in your excellent post?

We are freed from the condemnation of sin when we are placed in Christ.
There is no more condemnation after that to be freed from (Ro 8:1), right?

There is a difference between positional condemnation that you are referring to that has been removed when we are saved and placed in Christ and the experiential condemnation that we deal with as we grow up and learn how to deal with our failures, wrong decisions, bad judgments, weaknesses and episodes with personal sin that involve the flesh. That is the condemnation I am referring to which involve patterns of sin from the old man that we have to learn to put off and not condemn ourselves about when we give place.

 

[JGIG]

A new method of fulfilling God's will and that method is through love and not through flesh. A Christian cannot walk lasciviously, but must walk according to love.


God's Will, just as the Son did when He said, "Not my Will, bur your Will be done".


By the Law written upon our minds and by the Spirit within we have the 'to desire' and the 'to accomplish that which is good. What is good? Has not God told us what is good? And love fulfills that which is good.


The conviction of the Spirit is based on something. God has told us what is good and when we walk contrary to that Will, does not the Spirit convicts us when we do that which is not done in love? Love fulfills the Law because love does no offense (sin), it does no harm (evil). So then, by love God's eternal Will is pleased.

You're saying that the Law changes one's heart, yes?

Where in the Scriptures do you find that Law changes the heart for the good?

​

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Sorry about that.....that reply was to flamingspirit and you said, ' I'm not saying that utopia is the goal, but we could be doing a whole lot better as the Body of Christ in bringing change to this world through Christ! '

No worries - glad to be able to clarify.

 

[psychomom]

That sounds like fun.....please do

i see it as a 'saved from' and saved to' paradigm.

we are saved from sin and judgement, and saved to good works.
but in the epistles, especially, imperatives (what we must to) are always grounded in indicatives (what Christ has done).

it's what Christ has done that empowers us to do.
we see it most clearly in the Pauline epistles, but James and Peter do the same thing.

just quickly, in Ephesians Paul spends the first 3 chapters telling us what the Lord Jesus has accomplished for sinners before he begins telling us, 'therefore' (because of what Jesus has done and given us), we are to live this way.

Eph. 5:1-2
Therefore be imitators of God (imperative: do this), as beloved children. (indicative: because you have been made children by Christ)

And walk in love (imperative: do this), as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
(indicative: we can do this because of what Christ has done)

we can obey because of the Lord Jesus, and God is so gracious to remind us over and over that our starting point is the Gospel.
God continually reassures us of our position in Christ when He gives us commands. ♥

more of a 'because (of what Christ has done)...therefore (we are able to do)' than a
'if (you do these things)...then (God will do for you)' paradigm.

does that make any sense? lol

 

[cfultz3]

You're saying that the Law changes one's heart, yes?

Where in the Scriptures do you find that Law changes the heart for the good?

​

-JGIG

The Law does not change our hearts, no. Only God does that by placing a new heart within us, a heart having been imbedded with the Law. The Law is the 'to desire' of that new heart, seeing that the Law expresses God's will and seeks to fulfill that will. But, the only thing missing from that is the 'to accomplish that which is good'. So, God has given us His Spirit to 'to accomplish that which is good. And that Spirit comes with a new Law and that new Law is: DO LOVE.


Where in Scripture (from personal study).......

KJV Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Textus Receptus Rom 7:21 ευρισκωG2147 V-PAI-1S - (I find) αραG686 PRT - (then) τονG3588 T-ASM νομονG3551 N-ASM - (the Law) τωG3588 T-DSM θελοντιG2309 V-PAP-DSM - (is the thing within desiring) εμοιG1473 P-1DS - (in me) ποιεινG4160 V-PAN - (to do) τοG3588 T-ASN καλονG2570 A-ASN - (the thing which is virtuous (good/worthy for usage)(as compared to G18 : intrinsically good)) οτιG3754 CONJ - (because) εμοιG1473 P-1DS - (in me) τοG3588 T-NSN κακονG2556 A-NSN - (that evil (intrinsically so)) παρακειταιG3873 V-PNI-3S - (evil is present)

Translated :Rom 7:21 I then find the Law is the thing within me24 desiring to do the thing which is virtuous (good/worthy for usage)(as compared to G18 : intrinsically good) because 25that evil (intrinsically so) is present in me,

24 the Law is...within me = KJV: I find then a law. KJV omits the verb 'is willing' and the pronoun 'me' and its dative and the definite article attached to 'Law'. Including those things, it would be: The Law desiring within me. It was God who said that He would write His Law upon our hearts. That being so, then His Law, that is, the Law is within us. If you would, take note that the verb 'is willing' is pointing to the definite article which is in the dative. And that dative is telling us what state the Law is in, and that is 'within me'. Remember, the Law is not dead, it is written upon our hearts and v24 tells us that we serve God's Law with our minds, but with the flesh, we serve that same Law by which sin leads to death. And thus, the mandate to die to the flesh and become alive to our spirit.

25 because = when evil is present in you, it causes the Law to struggle against it and causes you to desire to do that which is good.

 

[cfultz3]

i see it as a 'saved from' and saved to' paradigm.

we are saved from sin and judgement, and saved to good works.
but in the epistles, especially, imperatives (what we must to) are always grounded in indicatives (what Christ has done).

it's what Christ has done that empowers us to do.
we see it most clearly in the Pauline epistles, but James and Peter do the same thing.

just quickly, in Ephesians Paul spends the first 3 chapters telling us what the Lord Jesus has accomplished for sinners before he begins telling us, 'therefore' (because of what Jesus has done and given us), we are to live this way.

Eph. 5:1-2
Therefore be imitators of God (imperative: do this), as beloved children. (indicative: because you have been made children by Christ)

And walk in love (imperative: do this), as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
(indicative: we can do this because of what Christ has done)

we can obey because of the Lord Jesus, and God is so gracious to remind us over and over that our starting point is the Gospel.
God continually reassures us of our position in Christ when He gives us commands. ♥

more of a 'because (of what Christ has done)...therefore (we are able to do)' than a
'if (you do these things)...then (God will do for you)' paradigm.

does that make any sense? lol

More than you can imagine.

Because of Him, we are able.

 

[KohenMatt]

I guess I'm having some difficulty understanding clearly what is being said.
Sounds like you are saying you are under law,but at least you are trying and since you tried,now GOD will give you grace:but what about faith over doing?Don't you think GOD prefers faith rather than you needing to help GOD by showing him you want to help?
See how bad that sounds,but it sounds like that is what you are saying.
A person trying to lift up one finger to help is just polluting GODs finished work.
REST and accept GODs grace.

Personally, I'm saved by grace alone. Period. Nothing else. But now I try to walk in obedience to all of God's commands, including the law.

 

[cfultz3]

Personally, I'm saved by grace alone. Period. Nothing else. But now I try to walk in obedience to all of God's commands, including the law.

And if you walk by love, they all will be fulfilled.

 

[kennethcadwell]

We are not under the law, because we are not held to the sacrificial standards or the curses/penalties that came with the old testament law.

When you sin there is no sacrifice required because Jesus was our sacrifice.

When you sin there is not stoning, beaten, put to death, etc. for violating the law because Jesus took the punishment for us.

Now through His grace, all we have to do is accept Him as Lord and Savior.

We do this by confession, repentance, and obedience to His will.

 

[Elin]

There is a difference between positional condemnation that you are referring to that has been removed when we are saved and placed in Christ and the experiential condemnation that we deal with as we grow up and learn how to deal with our failures, wrong decisions, bad judgments, weaknesses and episodes with personal sin that involve the flesh. That is the condemnation I am referring to which involve patterns of sin from the old man that we have to learn to put off and not condemn ourselves about when we give place.

So you're talking about self-condemnation after salvation as opposed to God's condemnation of Ro 8:1?

 

[phil112]

Personally, I'm saved by grace alone. Period. Nothing else. But now I try to walk in obedience to all of God's commands, including the law.

Paul wasn't specific enough, so I kind of modified it so even you can understand it.

Galatians 3:1-3 "O foolish KohenMatt, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [SUP] [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP] [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[JaumeJ]

Who is lawless accpet he who is consciously disobedient? No one who believes he should be obedient and loves Jesus Christ can do anything to be saved, but to purposely disobey God is being lawless, and all who reaqd the Word know who the lawless one is, and any who immulate him are not of God. Obey God; His commandments are not a burden to those who love Him. (Lawless is breaking the law.)

 

[KohenMatt]

Paul wasn't specific enough, so I kind of modified it so even you can understand it.

Galatians 3:1-3 "O foolish KohenMatt, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

That's easy, and apparently it's something you don't get about me.

I didn't receive the Spirit through works of the law.
I'm not made perfect by the flesh and works of the law.

Now move along from that ridiculous argument about me.

 

[KohenMatt]

Donations to the Temple - Part 2 of 2

124 Leviticus 19:10 - On leaving grape gleanings for the poor.
And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God.


125 Exodus 23:19 - On separating and bringing First-fruits to the Sanctuary.
The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mothers milk.


126 Deuteronomy 18:4 - To separate the great Heave-offering (terumah).
The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.


127 Deuteronomy 14:29 - To set aside the first tithe to the Levites.
And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.


128 Deuteronomy 14:22 - To set aside the second tithe, eaten only in Jerusalem.
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.


129 Numbers 18:26 - On Levites' giving tenth of their tithe to the Cohanim (High Priests).
Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.


130 Deuteronomy 14:28 - To set aside the poor-man's tithe in 3rd and 6th year.
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:


131 Deuteronomy 26:13 - A declaration made when separating the various tithes.
Then thou shalt say before the Lord thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:


132 Deuteronomy 26:2 - A declaration made bringing First-fruits to the Temple.
That thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy land that the Lord thy God giveth thee, and shalt put it in a basket, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose to place his name there.


133 Numbers 15:20 - On the first portion of the Challah given to the Cohen(Priest).
Ye shall offer up a cake of the first of your dough for an heave offering: as ye do the heave offering of the threshingfloor, so shall ye heave it.

 

[JaumeJ]

Someone wiser than I posted in the forum recently, you may repeat a lie a million times, but it is still a lie.

You provide no thread of the post to follow and by which to understand it.


You have no Biblical basis for saying that Jesus condemned capital punishment.


Please do not infer Jesus condemned capital punishment when you have no Biblical basis, only your opinion, for your statement.


You have not demonstrated condemnation of capital punishment by either Jesus or Paul.

 

[Elin]

You provide no thread of the post to follow and by which to understand it.

You have no Biblical basis for saying that Jesus condemned capital punishment.

Please do not infer Jesus condemned capital punishment when you have no Biblical basis,
only your opinion, for your statement.

You have not demonstrated condemnation of capital punishment by either Jesus or Paul.

Someone wiser than I posted in the forum recently, you may repeat a lie a million times, but it is still a lie.

Non-responsive.