A
Alligator
Guest
Atwood, how about being considerate of others by not posting half the NT every time you make a point. Do you really think people read all that?
In context: Romans 4:4-5
- Thread starter SeaBass
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
ROMANS 4:4-5 IN CONTEXT
Rom. 4:1
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
It is absurd imagination to try to explain away the clear teaching above by postulating 2 kinds of works, obedient works & meritorious works and try to inject one & exclude the other from this passage. All good works are obedient works & meritorious. Only the unsaved man has no good works whatsoever. And fortunately for him, salvation is not by works, but a gift of grace to the believer apart from works.
Faith is the opposite pole of works. Faith is resting in the Savior who tells the one who labors & is heavy laden to come to Him for rest.
An attempt was made to muddy the waters by quoting John 6 were faith seems to be called a work.
7 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides to eternal life, which the Son of man shall give to you: for him the Father, even God, has sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.
First is it noted that the expression is "the work of God," not "the work of man" in 6:29. So you may ask if the Lord Jesus is saying that man's belief is a work that God does, that is, God gives the man the faith?
But 6:7 does command "work . . . for the food . . . ."
This makes sense as mere activity which accomplishes something, not laborious labor. When one trusts the Savior one "does something," but it is not actually work, it is resting in the Lord. This passage should be viewed as a play on words. And it is clear that all a person need do for eternal life is to believe on the Lord Jesus. It is also clear from Hebrews that believing is resting from one's works, resting in the Savior.
Rom. 4:1
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. 3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness. 6 Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
It is absurd imagination to try to explain away the clear teaching above by postulating 2 kinds of works, obedient works & meritorious works and try to inject one & exclude the other from this passage. All good works are obedient works & meritorious. Only the unsaved man has no good works whatsoever. And fortunately for him, salvation is not by works, but a gift of grace to the believer apart from works.
Faith is the opposite pole of works. Faith is resting in the Savior who tells the one who labors & is heavy laden to come to Him for rest.
An attempt was made to muddy the waters by quoting John 6 were faith seems to be called a work.
7 Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides to eternal life, which the Son of man shall give to you: for him the Father, even God, has sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe on him whom he has sent.
First is it noted that the expression is "the work of God," not "the work of man" in 6:29. So you may ask if the Lord Jesus is saying that man's belief is a work that God does, that is, God gives the man the faith?
But 6:7 does command "work . . . for the food . . . ."
This makes sense as mere activity which accomplishes something, not laborious labor. When one trusts the Savior one "does something," but it is not actually work, it is resting in the Lord. This passage should be viewed as a play on words. And it is clear that all a person need do for eternal life is to believe on the Lord Jesus. It is also clear from Hebrews that believing is resting from one's works, resting in the Savior.
Faith Alone Saves
When proof is required that faith alone saves, proof may well be given. There is just a lot of it, as opposed to the few verses where an unbeliever may want to dwell that mention baptize. If someone want to claim that scripture doesn't make salvation conditioned on faith alone, evidence is appropriate. In fact a second post is needed because the system here won't post it all in one post.
FAITH ALONE!
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
When proof is required that faith alone saves, proof may well be given. There is just a lot of it, as opposed to the few verses where an unbeliever may want to dwell that mention baptize. If someone want to claim that scripture doesn't make salvation conditioned on faith alone, evidence is appropriate. In fact a second post is needed because the system here won't post it all in one post.
FAITH ALONE!
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. 11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.
Heb 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
1 Pet 1:3ff
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
1 John 5:4-5
4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that not of yourselves,
NOT OF WORKS
lest anyone should boast.
Faith > Salvation > Works
Until you are born again, there will be no good works.
After you are born again, there is no question of being saved, you are saved.
Good works do not save, they come from salvation.
A
Alligator
Guest
Re: Faith Alone Saves
Just The same, you would be a lot better off by posting two or three scriptures at a time and concentrating on those. It doesn't do you any good to post a huge number of scriptures if they aren't being read.
L
Just The same, you would be a lot better off by posting two or three scriptures at a time and concentrating on those. It doesn't do you any good to post a huge number of scriptures if they aren't being read.
A
Alligator
Guest
no, that is not what I was talking about. Baptism is for the remission, washing away,of sins. You believe that this language is figurative you believe you were already forgiven at the point of faith.
Saved by grace> through faith .....which is dead without works
you must be born again to see the kingdom
you must be born of water and spirit to enter the kingdom...
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But who could possibly fight and win this battle except by believing that Jesus is truly the Son of God? [SUP]6-8 [/SUP]And we know he is, because God said so with a voice from heaven when Jesus was baptized, and again as he was facing death[SUP][a][/SUP]—yes, not only at his baptism but also as he faced death.* And the Holy Spirit, forever truthful, says it too. So we have these three witnesses: the voice of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, the voice from heaven at Christ’s baptism, and the voice before he died.* And they all say the same thing: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.*
A
Alligator
Guest
I didn't merely take a bath in unbelief, I was Spirit baptized into Christ the moment that I believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13) then afterwards water baptized into identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection.
Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to signify their inclusion into the church. Apostles were also present when the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit (chapter 8). God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church.
Spirit baptism is the reality and water baptism is the picture of the reality.
By faith in Christ Jesus, not faith and baptism.
Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it's lusts." This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to "put on" Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let's be consistent. We are water baptized BECAUSE we are already children of God through faith (Galatians 3:26), not to become children of God
And all who believe receive remission of sins before water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 13:39; 15:8,9).
They who gladly received his word (saved through repentance/faith) were afterwards baptized. If we must be water baptized to be added to the church, then in Acts 4:4, why does it read: "However, many of those who heard the word BELIEVED; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand." No mention of baptism. Acts 5:14 reads: "And BELIEVERS were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women," No mention of baptism.
AFTER they believed.
Again, AFTER they BELIEVED and were??? (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31).
I was thinking the same thing about you.
Not faith only per James, which is an empty profession of faith (James 2:14-24). I am a saved through faith and not by works, (Ephesians 2:8,9) yet genuine faith is evidenced by good works guy. That is not the same as what James refers to as "faith only," empty profession of faith, dead faith.
Faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. I don't have faith in faith I have faith IN CHRIST. Not faith in Christ "plus works," as you do, which is not trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation.
Sins are not literally washed away, that is a metaphor. But I have not given the straw man explanation that you try to hang on me. The essential element in remission of sins is not baptism, but repentance (change of mind from nonbelief to belief) as Acts 10 tells us. You seem hung up on a rare verse, Acts 2:38 & to insist on an unnecessary interpretation, in violation of say 1000 passages that declare salvation comes by faith/belief with nothing added.
Passages on remission:
Matt. 26:28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins.
Mark 1:4
John came, who baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins.
Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people
In the remission of their sins,
Luke 3:3
And he came into all the region round about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance unto remission of sins;
Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38
And Peter said unto them, Repent ye and be [Spirit] baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ [not in water] unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[10:43 shows that the repentance is the essential element, repentance being a change of mind from disbelief to belief]
Acts 5:31
Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
Acts 10:43
To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[everyone that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. -- no water baptism needed!]
Acts 13:38
Be it known unto you therefore, brethren, that through this man is proclaimed unto you remission of sins:
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.
Heb. 9:22
And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
Heb. 10
14 For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them
After those days, saith the Lord:
I will put my laws on their heart,
And upon their mind also will I write them;
then saith he,
17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Water baptism is a symbol of Christ's death, burial, & resurrection. In the expression "Spirit baptism," I would take baptism to be figurative, as being put into the Body of Christ (the Church) is a metaphor. There is no literal Body of Christ meant -- it is a figure for our unity as we are connected to Christ. We are not literally dipped by the Spirit into some fluid.
Galatians says nothing about being put into water. Spirit baptism puts the one who has faith, into Christ (His Body, the Church).
26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ
[not into water. This is Spirit baptism, 1 Cor 12:13]
did put on Christ. 28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ. 28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus."
No water in the passage. One becomes a son of God through faith (nothing else).
If any book in the Bible refutes the false gospel of works, it is Galatians.
A
Alligator
Guest
Galatio s 3:26-27 doesn't say anything about Spirit baptism either , you just made that up so it would "fit".
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
[SUP]
I know so.
[/SUP]
Again, Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]So why did Paul lay hands on them and why did the apostles lay hands on the Samaritans in Acts 8 to receive the Holy Spirit? Do you think that is the norm for everyone? Did that happen in Acts 2 or Acts 10?
[/SUP]
What did I doubt? I am comparing scripture with scripture to get the meaning of "put on" Christ. We do not put on Christ to be saved through water baptism. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Stop right there and you have it right. I already explained Acts 2:38 numerous times, now compare it again with Acts 3:10; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31.
Do lost unbelievers receive the Holy Spirit or saved believers? Compare Acts 2:38 ..gift of the Holy Spirit with Acts 10:45 ..gift of the Holy Spirit. When did they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit? When they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17). Now read Acts 16:31 to find out when they were saved.
Believers obey the word of God BECAUSE they are believers, not to become believers. Saved through faith first, then unto good works. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates no root.
Keep reading: 1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Did the Holy Ghost teach you baptism is only a bath?
If baptism is worthless as you say Paul would not have asked " Notice carefully ,Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?...(no)...then..."Unto what then were ye baptized?, (of John)" you see they believed and was baptised he expected them to receive the HS after baptism.(but they were not baptised in the name of Jesus Christ) He did not ask if they were baptised. He asked... Unto what then were ye baptized? It is understood when you believe you must be baptised.
Righteousness is salvation in Rom 6. It is simply your bias that causes you to make the incredible statment that righeousness has nothing to do with salvation.
Rom 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
Paul is contrasting being lost "sin unto death" to being saved "obedience unto righteousness" and every person is serving either sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.....there is no other option. So your theology has you denying simple biblical facts about righteousness.
Paul is not addressing how to be saved.
He is writing to the saved, not to the unsaved.
He is addressing antinomianism after salvation, rejecting it and showing that
the saved do not throw morality to the winds.
To the contrary, they forsake sin as their master and receives righteousness as their master.
Seems you have the same erroneous thinking he was addressing.
I NEVER argued the Christian can live a sinless life. 1 Jn 1:7, the Christian that CONTINUES to walk in the light has ALL his sins CONTINUALLY cleansed away by the blood of Christ. So it is that continual walking and continual cleansing that keeps the Christian freed from sin. This obedient walking earns NOTHING so it cannot be the work Paul speaks about in Rom 4:4 that makes one's reward of debt and not of grace. If you want to argue that the walking does makes one's reward of debt then you have John advocating Christians walk to earn their salvation/cleansing away of sins.
Justified is being freed from sin, again you theology has you way off on a simply bible subject. If a judge pronounces a man to be justified then that judge has cleared that man of all charges against him. That pronouncement does not mean that man was never guilty but that he is no longer held accountable for what he did, he is exempted from the penalty he deserves...justified. This issue is raised in Rom 3 in how can God be just yet justify the sinner? The answer is through Christ...."Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;" Christ is the propitiation for man's sins where being "in Christ" a man then is pronounced cleared of all charges (justified) no longer has to face the penalty, i.e., (saved). Justified = saved.
Rom 9:30 "What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith."
Paul said the Gentiles once did not follow after rightouesness, they cared nothing about rightoeusness but now have obtained rightoeusness by faith. Paul did NOT say the Gentiles obtained righteousness by "faith only". In Peter being sent to the Gentiels making the first Gneitle converts preached to the Gentiles "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Acts 10:35.
Rom 9:31,32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone."
Gal 3:12 the OT law was NOT of faith so Israel tried to faithlessly keep the law flawlessly in trying to earn salvation, which they could never do. As Paul said in Rom 10:1-3 that the Jews were lost for they went about trying to establish THEIR OWN righteousness, they were trying to merit salvation instead of submitting/obeying GOD'S righteousness/commands. So this "works of merit" is the work Paul speaks of in Rom 4:4 where the Jews were trying to make their reward of debt and not of grace by working to flawlessly keep God's OT law when all they needed to do was have a faithful obedience to God/submit to Gods' righteousness.
You posted "Likewise, no obedience = no true faith = no salvation."
I agree!!!! No obedience/no doing righteousness = no salvation.
Paul certainly is dealing with how to be saved in Rom 6;
Rom 6:16 obedience unto righteousness
In Rom 6:17,18 the order of events:
1) servants of sin
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified/saved.
In Rom 6:16 Paul put obedience BEFORE righteousness.
In Rom 6:17,18 Paul put obeyed BEFORE freed from sin/justification
Since your religious bias does not want obedience BEFORE salvation then you do not want righteousness nor being freed from sin/justification have any thing to do with salvation as seen by your incredible statements "Righteousness in Ro 6:16 is not salvation." and "Paul is not addressing how to be saved"