Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[secularhermit]

We have bypassed that there is also a "fermentation" process inside the stomach...

 

[iamsoandso]

We have bypassed that there is also a "fermentation" process inside the stomach...

yep and were past "R.O.F.L.O.L.",,,that is if anyone says this I left my cam on=iamsoandso is an 80 year old man in a wheelchair with his left brake on,and his right wheel in reverse rolling around on floor laughing out loud,,,lol

 

[chubbena]

We have bypassed that there is also a "fermentation" process inside the stomach...

Some seem to think here's a good place to let it out.

 

[royalscot]

[SUP][SUP]what would the point be of calling it ,unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
they would have just called it water.


For John came neither eating nor
18 , and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'
[/SUP]19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking
[/SUP]
"They have no wine."[SUP]4 And Jesus *said to her, "Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come."
[/SUP]
So they took it to him.[SUP]9 When the headwaiter tasted the water which had become wine, and did not know where it c

ame from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the headwaiter *called the bridegroom,1

[/SUP]

 

[iamsoandso]

Some seem to think here's a good place to let it out.

Great point!!,,I also have noticed the tense atmosphere,at times a little lightness among our selves will end up having us discuss different matters without the fear that others are hovering over us,,,great point though,we should all just relax and talk to each other and discuss things just like a group of friends would instead of as if "the world is watching,,and we might have a button on our shirt undone",,,

 

[posthuman]

You are still making an assumption. Nowhere does it actually say they were intoxicated. The words "well drunk" is just the same as me saying "well eaten." For I can say that I had "well drunk" of the water at Jack's house and we both know that water is not an intoxicating. Nowhere does it say that they behaved in a drunken manner, either. All this is an assumption on your part that does not exist within the text. Also, "good wine" is based on taste and not alcoholic content. For wine tasters today do not judge a wine on it's goodness soley based on it's alcoholic content.

you're ignoring and twisting the context because it offends you.

if you've drank a lot of water, do you lose the ability to taste water?
if you've eaten a lot of food, do you lose the ability to taste food?

i can think of two common ingestibles that deaden the senses -- alcohol and hot sauce.

do you think that at the wedding the guests had drank so much salsa that you could get away with serving the cheapest, mildest cans of tomatoes to them? did Jesus turn water into Texas Pete ??

the assumption i'm making is that the scripture is plain. Jesus turned water into wine. the guests had been celebrating for a long time and many couldn't discern the difference between diluted, barely aged juice and good wine anymore, but the MC, being a professional, sips and spits, and understood right away that the wine our Lord made from water was the best in the house.

 

[chubbena]

Great point!!,,I also have noticed the tense atmosphere,at times a little lightness among our selves will end up having us discuss different matters without the fear that others are hovering over us,,,great point though,we should all just relax and talk to each other and discuss things just like a group of friends would instead of as if "the world is watching,,and we might have a button on our shirt undone",,,

How I wish...even when views are drastically different...love does not hurt....I'm learning again

 

[Last]

Are you so shallow in your belief that a Christian can drink, that all you can provide is superfluous redirects. Have you no courage or certainty in your conviction that it is OK for a Christian to drink in moderation, that you cannot answer my questions directly?

I answered your questions directly.
I guess you have an obsession with legalism because I answered them exactly as you would with any issue and I made that quite clear. If I said "A Christian may only drink 3 alcohol drinks consisting of no more than 3 ounces of 100% ethanol" then I am engaging in legalism and that is exactly the fallacy of your argument, which I saw long in advance. That is, one must either have a rigid legalism in alcohol or someone it is wrong to use it. Life does not work that way.

What a persons consumes or does varies between person as to its benefits and hindrances.

Your definition of moderation is a justification, not an answer. Your continued attempt to justify this with other ignored behaviors found in the church is not unfounded, but further justification.

No, my definition of living within moderation is the very basic definition of how to function in society. If what I said was problematic to you, than you are not capable of taking care of yourself.

So how many drinks do you have in a day before you feel that you are no longer being a mature and responsible adult, that is managing his life successfully?

Do you mean in my experience as I hold myself accountable?

Do you only drink because it tastes good?

People eat things because of their taste, its emotional effects, and the benefits of doing it.

When do you think drinking becomes a sin? when you get tipsy, comfortably numb or bombed?

Is getting tipsy, comfortably numb or bombed once a week, once a month, once a year Ok? as long as it is not leading to issues

I already answered that question. How much or how often is not the issue. It's about the effect of what you are doing has on your life and your need for doing it.

 

[Last]

Should Christians get drunk in public?

No - is anyone advocating that?

I think I see the problem here - people equate having a beer with getting drunk.

 

[Last]

Should Christians indulge in gluttony in public?

If I drink one glass of wine with a meal, am I a drunkard?

No, a Christian should never have a drink. But it is perfectly acceptable for a fat slob pastor to get up and preach about the evils of alcohol to his fat slob congregation.

You hit the nail on the head. People in this thread have NO sense of moderation. You can drink a beer, but you cannot get drunk. You can eat KFC, but not every day. You can watch TV, but not for 16 hours a day.

Legalism is exactly why so many Christians in the US are unhealthy. It's not OK to abstain from alcohol and then eat a 10 piece chicken meal. You cannot have 4 liters of soda a day and think that's morally permissible because you aren't getting drunk.

MODERATION.
-----Jesus did it!

 

[Last]

You obviously do not realize that it doesn't take much for an alcholic to relapse. A Christian that they looked up to drinking openly at event where they did not expect any drinking to be present could very easily send a person back into a relapse.

I have know many alcoholics and each are different. I never knew a single one that went into a public place, saw a friend drinking and decided to get hammered. That's not how alcoholism works.

In fact, any Christian who has struggled with sin would tell you it doesn't take much to make them fall.

Except alcohol isn't a sin.
I knew people that struggled with sex addiction. Does that mean I cannot be seen with my girlfriend in public because someone might see me with a girl (beer) and decide to go crazy?

 

[Last]

A. There Were Three Methods of Preservation For Grape Juice.

Boiling the juice to the consistency of syrup

a. “By boiling, the juice of the richest grapes loses all its aptitude for fermentation, and may afterwards be preserved for years without undergoing any further change.” - Herman Boerhave, Elements of Chemistry, page 81

b. Columella (1st century) said it was common in Italy and Greece to boil wine.

c. Pliny (62-113 AD), wrote that after two centuries of production, Opimian wine had the consistency of honey.

d. Virgil (70-19 BC) said to make wine keep, they boiled the juice down to ½ or 1/3 of its original volume.

Boiling grapes was incredibly expensive. It's only application was for increasing the sugar content of a bad year. It was never used as a method of producing grape juice. Once something is boiled like that, it's taste

e. The reason the Jewish Mishna teaches the Jews to water down their wine was because they commonly kept it in syrup form.

f. There are records giving instructions for reconstituting the syrup, depending on the kind of wine being used
(1) Hesiod (8th century BC) said in the summer months, one part wine to three parts water was the correct amount.

(2) Hippocrates(460-377 BC) said to use one part Thracian wine to twenty parts water.

(3) Some regions built places where citizens could get hot, cold, or lukewarm water to mix with their wine, depending on the drink they desired. They were called “Thermopoliums” and several were found in Pompeii.

FALSE. Regular wine was watered down. Ancient people watered down their wine because wine was expensive, but water was toxic.

Filtration

a. The gluten (or yeast) was separated from the juice. Without the gluten, fermentation could not take place.

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT
wrongwrongwrongwrongwrongwrong
wrongwrongwrongwrongwrongwrong
wrongwrongwrongwrongwrongwrong
wrongwrongwrongwrongwrongwrong
wrongwrongwrongwrongwrongwrong
wrongwrongwrongwrongwrongwrong
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT

We now know that whomever wrote this had NO idea what they were talking about.

Gluten is not yeast. Gluten did not exist in juice
Yeast was not removed from grape juice.

This is just so stupid, I have no idea what to say.
Fermentation takes place the minute grape juice is squished. Even if you sterlized the grapes, any exposure to air will lead to fermentation.
You should be embarassed to have quoted this guy.

b. Plutarch (46-120 AD) “Wine is rendered feeble in strength when it is frequently filtered. The strength or spirit thus being excluded, the wine neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind and passions, and is much more pleasant to drink.”

c. Pliny (62-133 AD) “The most useful wine was all its foce or strength broken by the filter.”

Refrigeration

Wine naturally produces a nasty sediment which no one wants. Nice try.

a. Juice kept at 45 degrees or less cannot ferment. If the juice is kept cool for a period of time, the gluten will settle to the bottom. Then the juice can be skimmed off the top and will not ferment even if it is warmed again.

This guy is an idiot.
Anything will ferment until it becomes frozen. This 'gluten' stuff is all nonsense. This does not even make sense.

b. Pliny described a wine called Aigleuces (“Always Sweet”) “They plunge the casks, immediately after they are filled from the vat, into water, until winter has passed away and the wine has acquired the habit of being cold.”

Cold wine still ferments.

c. Marcus Pontius Cato (234-149 BC) “If you wish to have ‘must’ all year, put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days, take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year.”

That quote is not real. Try again.

d. The Jews poured a small amount of olive oil on the top of juice placed in caves. The oil produced an airtight seal and the cool caves allowed large quantities of juice to be stored and sold at later times of the year.

That would still produce wine. That is what wine makers do.

Conclusion:

In fact, records consistently indicate that the best wines were considered to be the freshest, unfermented juice, even among the Gentiles. So by looking at documentation from history, we can clearly see that grape juice was preserved and that the best wines were the unfermented wines.


Source Used:
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVS...dTestament.htm

Conclusion: False.

 

[iamsoandso]

How I wish...even when views are drastically different...love does not hurt....I'm learning again

yea,I think from watching those who appose drinking,well they aren't saying what they think based on a whim but rather what they see in scripture,,, On the other side those who say what they think are basing it on the things they see.

Now I try to divide this all up between what they are "quoting from the scripture verses the things they see as a consequence of it in actual life",,,I'm meaning "if a man likes to drink beer,,,and his wife works,should he drink when she is at work?",,,hmm,, you see if she has a flat and he is drunk,,,can he come and change her flat?( I say this because it at first seems to not quote any scripture),,,but does it?,,,surly if he has the holy spirit in him he would be concerned with her,and would not compromise his ability to rescue her if need be,,,,,,,

At the same time if a man was of the spirit to be a guide in the church,,"deacon,elder,preacher ect.",,,what would his role in life determine his responsibility to entail,ever readiness to at a moments notice jump up and protect his flock?,,,what if one of his church members were in a car accident and he needed to go to the hospital and comfort the remaining family members,let alone sit beside a brother or sister at the last moments of life on earth?,,,where does a glass of wine stand on the scale between convenience and well,,,the last moments they could spend with one of their fellow family members?,,,

I think I can see this rolling around in a wheel chair,,there is a big difference in rolling around in a 2014 car,,,and riding a camel in ad37,,,so something needs give in the manner of thinking,,,that is a camel can bite a man and he can live till the preacher gets sober(though he could have gotten there faster and done more if he was),,,but if the asphalt gets a bran new car and it flips over and over,,,well a sober preacher headed to the hospital would mean a lot,,,,,,,

 

[jkalyna]

We are given free will to do whatever we please. The first miracle that Jesus performed at the request of His mother was to turn water into wine. That is a biblical fact. God does not lead anyone into temptation. There was a party going on. I am surmising here as it was not written, that those that woke with hangovers probably did not blame Jesus for the pounding in the side of their heads. There is a time and a place for everything.

*what about the scripture that says, the Lord called them to the wedding party, and they didn't want to go, then he said, call everyone on the street corners, invite them. So they must of had some fancy food, and things, like maybe wine to give, and that choice is not a forced one, it's up to you. Don't know where it was, but it was important enough to be written.*

 

[secularhermit]

I think that this is the problem fermenting:

 

[jkalyna]

While I may approve of the verse, I do not approve of the picture of an all seeing eye within a pyramid. Such a symbol is a part of the New Age movement.

*so how do you look at people they have eyes, some only one, and how do you live with money, it has the eye and the pyramid, Ty for the info. though, I am against new age but I don't get caught up in silly things, like that, besides there are avatars with eyes, and what do you do with money, never mind.*

 

[jkalyna]

I think that this is the problem fermenting:

*I think it's a problem with past guilt, that something happened when someone was intoxicated something very bad, and they are living with the guilt of it now, and there's a wall there now. Give it to Jesus.

 

[jkalyna]

Luke 14:13​

“The servant returned and told his master what they had said. His master was furious and said, ‘Go quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and invite the poor, the crippled, the blind, and the lame.’ 22After the servant had done this, he

reported, ‘There is still room for more.’ 23So his master said, ‘Go out into the country lanes and behind the hedges and

urge anyone you find to come, so that the house will be full. 24For none of those I first invited will get even the smallest taste of my banquet.’”
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *This was a GREAT FEAST

** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * and those in the alleys, and streets. **


​

 

[iamsoandso]

*so how do you look at people they have eyes, some only one, and how do you live with money, it has the eye and the pyramid, Ty for the info. though, I am against new age but I don't get caught up in silly things, like that, besides there are avatars with eyes, and what do you do with money, never mind.*

lol,,thats the simplest part of the whole bible,, like in acts where they sold all their posessions and gave them to the church,,,your first fruits(your problem is deciding the second fruits),,,then you take them all to the priest in the temple,,,and they divide them back to you,,,,lol,,,"get it?",,,,,,,

 

[jkalyna]

lol,,thats the simplest part of the whole bible,, like in acts where they sold all their posessions and gave them to the church,,,your first fruits(your problem is deciding the second fruits),,,then you take them all to the priest in the temple,,,and they divide them back to you,,,,lol,,,"get it?",,,,,,,

*Jesus said to*Nicodemus*sell all and give it to the poor not the church, I'd be very well off by now, if the church took care of it's own. The Lord stuck up for the Widows, and*Orphans*always, and Stephen was stoned for that. So it's not a money game of*monopoly*with me, not now or ever, there is only one way to the Father, and you don't buy it with monopoly money like a game, because Jesus said, in my Father's house there are many mansions, I go to prepare a place for you, Your not going to buy yourself a ticket to heaven, nor a place, with money, there is only one way, and that is through the blood atonement. You deleted the first part to who it was addressed, and seem a little confused, but that's o.k. have a good day.*