Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Jason0047]

What's YOUR motivation for denying scripture?

None. My motivation is pleasing God and exalting His goodness. I don't deny Scripture. What's your motivation for denying Scripture so as to defend the idea that Jesus served an intoxicating beverage? Do you think Jesus promoted us in being selfless or in being selfish? For surely my opposition here is in the promotion of something that is in pleasing of people's flesh. It's not that we do not we don't have a liberty in Christ, but the problem I see is that the drink is glorified more than the pure and beautiful miracle itself that is supposed to bring Him glory.

 

[Agricola]

How can he (Jason) not see that the event we are talking about is a foreshadowing that with all the needed scriptures from the OT lining up with this event was how Jesus Christ understood the will of the Father! He saw His own death in it! The Master=God the Father....the Bridgroom=God the Son....The wine = God Holy Sprit!!!! We are then SERVANTS! GOD IS THE JUDGE! You DONT NOT KNOW WHAT YOU SPEAK JASON. Enough is enough...Judge yourself!

Becuase to accept it will mean that the King James Bible is not quite as perfect as they make out, so we end up with stupid threads like this where they just avoid, deflect and ignore anything which brings to light the imperfections of any translation, including the King James.

 

[Jason0047]

Becuase to accept it will mean that the King James Bible is not quite as perfect as they make out, so we end up with stupid threads like this where they just avoid, deflect and ignore anything which brings to light the imperfections of any translation, including the King James.

Yes, nice magic trick (Look over here and don't look at that) type distraction. Again, not going to.work. Besides, have you ever considered in examining both sides of the issue? Have you ever written down all the good and bad that alcohol causes? Do you think it causes more good or more bad? If intoxicating beverages cause more harm than good than how could Jesus promote it?

 

[Bowman]

None. My motivation is pleasing God and exalting His goodness.

Then don't deny His word.

I don't deny Scripture.

Yes, you do.

What's your motivation for denying Scripture so as to defend the idea that Jesus served an intoxicating beverage?

If God can drink alcohol, so can you.

Do you think Jesus promoted us in being selfless or in being selfish?

Drinking alcohol is neither.

For surely my opposition here is in the promotion of something that is in pleasing of people's flesh. It's not that we do not we don't have a liberty in Christ, but the problem I see is that the drink is glorified more than the pure and beautiful miracle itself that is supposed to bring Him glory.

That thought would have never crossed my mind...but you seem to wear it like a gigantic chip upon your shoulder....perhaps you suffered at the hand of a family member alcoholic...

 

[lisa79]

Yes, nice magic trick (Look over here and don't look at that) type distraction. Again, not going to.work. Besides, have you ever considered in examining both sides of the issue? Have you ever written down all the good and bad that alcohol causes? Do you think it causes more good or more bad? If intoxicating beverages cause more harm than good than how could Jesus promote it?

Please respond to this.
I prayed on this and the spirit revealed the mystery.
It is a foreshadowing that where He recognised the scriptures lining up with the event in question. This is how Christ understood the will of the Father. He saw His own death in it. The Master=God the Father…………The Bridegroom=God the Son.......The wine= God the Holy spirit! We are the servants. God is the judge.. Christ is standing in the place of God. You are trying to do that. You are not God and can not judge. By trying you are juding yiurself. The alcohol is the pwer in the blood and it us good. All power can be used for good or evil. God loves you and wants you to stop this insanity and let him be the judge. You are not qualified.

 

[SparkleEyes]

Lol its hilarious how much some people will expand on one story just to fit their viewpoint of alcohol being bad. Seriously if you dont like it, dont drink it. The world will keep spinning and you can quit wasting your time with trying to convince others, who honestly don't care.

YES YES YES. True for women pastors/teachers/leaders; "large" churches; any other topic that divides us Christians.

 

[KJV1611]

Please respond to this.
I prayed on this and the spirit revealed the mystery.
It is a foreshadowing that where He recognised the scriptures lining up with the event in question. This is how Christ understood the will of the Father. He saw His own death in it. The Master=God the Father…………The Bridegroom=God the Son.......The wine= God the Holy spirit! We are the servants. God is the judge.. Christ is standing in the place of God. You are trying to do that. You are not God and can not judge. By trying you are juding yiurself. The alcohol is the pwer in the blood and it us good. All power can be used for good or evil. God loves you and wants you to stop this insanity and let him be the judge. You are not qualified.

So the more alcohol in the blood the more power in the blood?

 

[Jason0047]

Then don't deny His word.


Yes, you do.

This is turning into one of those silly, "l know you are, but what am I" type debates. We should stick to Scripture and stop the accusations. Yes, I ami just as guilty for indulging you. But let's move past this childishness and discuss this like loving and mature Christians.

If God can drink alcohol, so can you.

Again, I never said that a believer under the New Testament couldn't drink alcohol. Also, I believe Jesus drank wines or grape juices that were either freshly squeezed or wines where the fermentation process was haulted and then preserved. I believe this because this was still the time of the Old Testament. For Daniel had refused the king's wine and meat so as not to be defiled (Daniel 1:8). Proverbs 31 says wine is not for kings. Jesus was a king. The OT Scriptures say that to the OT saint that they were not even look at wine when showed that it was alcoholic. The OT Scriptures also says wine is a mocker, and that it can bite you like a serpent. So how exactly did the Son of the Living God or the Word made flesh ignore all these verses and just went ahead and did His own thing (Which would have broken His own Word?).

That thought would have never crossed my mind...but you seem to wear it like a gigantic chip upon your shoulder....perhaps you suffered at the hand of a family member alcoholic...

No chips on my shoulder. Unless of course you were to buy some CVS Pharmacy Macadamian nut white chocolate chip cookies and place them on one my shoulders. Mmmm. Yum. I like those cookies on occasion. My fiancé from Brazil likes a different flavor. Anyways, getting back on topic, I never had anything remotely traumatic happen in my life concerning alcohol. Actually, I drank soberly and in moderation while as a believer but I have chosen to walk the higher road in abstaining as a promise to someone I love.

 

[fredjames]

Also, the Jews lies were not founded on truth. How do we know? In John chapter 8, the Jews accused Jesus of being born of fornication because they believe Jesus' mother Mary had relations with a man outside of marriage. However, does this accusation or lie mean that Jesus had a human father because he was born of fornication? No, it doesn't. It was completely an unfounded lie.

Dearly beloved friend, you are going on ahead of the HOLY BIBLE written Holy Scripture.

If that is the case what you have shared about Mother Mary is true, than there would have been a twist in the Gospel that the Jews stoned Mary for fornication and the fate of JESUS?

The Jews did not tolerate such sin and uncleanliness in their community, as according to the Law of Moses..

 

[Jason0047]

Dearly beloved friend, you are going on ahead of the HOLY BIBLE written Holy Scripture.

If that is the case what you have shared about Mother Mary is true, than there would have been a twist in the Gospel that the Jews stoned Mary for fornication and the fate of JESUS?

The Jews did not tolerate such sin and uncleanliness in their community, as according to the Law of Moses..

I was saying Jesus was born of a virgin. The Jews lied about Jesus being born of fornication.

 

[Timeline]

Actually, as pointed out by "Standing Firm in Christ", he tasted of it, but he didn't drink of it, though (Matthew 27:34).

You were the one that suggested that it offered relief of pain - that is what I was correcting. And usually when you "taste" of something, it goes down your throat - I am not going to argue this point with you.

Jesus drank wine during His ministry!! But I do not believe that He became drunk. I do believe, however, that the wine that he gave the guests at Cana was fermented, as it was intended to be A SIGN. You confuse following the LAW with listening to a direct command from God. If God tells you to do something, regardless of what the written Law says, to not do it, is a sin.

You will notice that the Law said not to Kill/Murder, but when God sent the Israelites into Amalek, He said to kill everyone. I know that you will try to manipulate meaning here, but the fact is that we should do whatever God tells us to do, once we are made aware that it is God that speaks!!! And Jesus knew the will of His Father.

 

[Jason0047]

You were the one that suggested that it offered relief of pain - that is what I was correcting. And usually when you "taste" of something, it goes down your throat - I am not going to argue this point with you.

Yes, this is called willing to admit when you are wrong when confronted with the truth. "Standing Firm in Christ" had helped to show me the passage more clearly and I humbled myself to accept what the verse actually said (And not what I would want it to say). In other words, I have shown many folks here passages to defend my view. The Scriptural evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did not make intoxicating wine. But people have ignored these verses and they see what they want to see (And make false accusations or personal attacks against me).

Jesus drank wine during His ministry!!

I believe it was wine, too. It was just fresh new wine from the cluster of the grape that was non intoxicating. Formenting? Most likely, yes. But was it fully formented and or highly alcoholic? No.

But I do not believe that He became drunk. I do believe, however, that the wine that he gave the guests at Cana was fermented, as it was intended to be A SIGN. You confuse following the LAW with listening to a direct command from God. If God tells you to do something, regardless of what the written Law says, to not do it, is a sin.

You will notice that the Law said not to Kill/Murder, but when God sent the Israelites into Amalek, He said to kill everyone. I know that you will try to manipulate meaning here, but the fact is that we should do whatever God tells us to do, once we are made aware that it is God that speaks!!! And Jesus knew the will of His Father.

Uh, no. If for a second, Jesus broke any of the Laws then He could not fulfill the Old Testament Law upon the cross so as to be our substitute. Also, God does not make Laws so He can break them, either. God has Laws because He is righteous and they are His standard of what is good to Him.

Murder is not the same thing as executing God's Judgments by His Command. One is selfishly motivated and the other is selflessly motivated because it is trusting in God. For example: If a person kills themselves it would be suicide. This is selfish. However, if a person takes a bullet for their best friend so as to save them then they are being selfless. Both actions can appear to be similar but they are very different (I assure you).

Also, God would never give a command that would contradict His Holy Law He has established. Can God change the Laws? Yes He can. In fact, He did so when Jesus died upon the cross and fulfilled the Law of Moses. But that does not mean God eliminated all forms of Laws or justice, though. There are still the moral laws or the Law of love which exists in the New Testament.

 

[directline2iam]

Yes, nice magic trick (Look over here and don't look at that) type distraction. Again, not going to.work. Besides, have you ever considered in examining both sides of the issue? Have you ever written down all the good and bad that alcohol causes? Do you think it causes more good or more bad? If intoxicating beverages cause more harm than good than how could Jesus promote it?

Jesus didn't promote anything. They asked for wine and He gave it to them, and not only was it wine, it was the best wine.
Like you stated, it was all about the glory of God through one of His miracles,but then you turn around and say it shouldn't be about jesus promoting alcohol in the wine. No one who believes the wine had alcohol in it said it was promoting it except you. You went from a miracle to promotion. That is called twisting the meaning of scripture.

 

[Jason0047]

Please respond to this.
I prayed on this and the spirit revealed the mystery.
It is a foreshadowing that where He recognised the scriptures lining up with the event in question. This is how Christ understood the will of the Father. He saw His own death in it. The Master=God the Father…………The Bridegroom=God the Son.......The wine= God the Holy spirit! We are the servants. God is the judge.. Christ is standing in the place of God. You are trying to do that. You are not God and can not judge. By trying you are juding yiurself. The alcohol is the pwer in the blood and it us good. All power can be used for good or evil. God loves you and wants you to stop this insanity and let him be the judge. You are not qualified.

It is written...

Isaiah 5:20-24
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink: Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel."

 

[Jason0047]

Jesus didn't promote anything. They asked for wine and He gave it to them, and not only was it wine, it was the best wine.
Like you stated, it was all about the glory of God through one of His miracles,but then you turn around and say it shouldn't be about jesus promoting alcohol in the wine. No one who believes the wine had alcohol in it said it was promoting it except you. You went from a miracle to promotion. That is called twisting the meaning of scripture.

Jesus manifested His glory. This took shape in the form of a miracle. But Jesus did not contribute to people's drunkenness or in leading people into sin. Jesus did not break Old Testament Laws that forbid strong alcoholic drinks. Such a thing would have not been glorious, or good.

 

[directline2iam]

Jesus manifested His glory. This took shape in the form of a miracle. But Jesus did not contribute to people's drunkenness or in leading people into sin. Jesus did not break Old Testament Laws that forbid strong alcoholic drinks. Such a thing would have not been glorious, or good.

You are correct, He didn't contribute or lead people into sin, they do this all on their own. God gave us fire also, some people keep warm with it and some commit to burning homes and people alive in it. Nope, God don't contribute or lead people into sin. It's good to tell people the dangers of sin and how it can creep up on us by opening the door to it, but alcohol in and of it self can be a blessing if you are wise enough to see the blessing in it.

 

[Timeline]

Yes, this is called willing to admit when you are wrong when confronted with the truth. "Standing Firm in Christ" had helped to show me the passage more clearly and I humbled myself to accept what the verse actually said (And not what I would want it to say). In other words, I have shown many folks here passages to defend my view. The Scriptural evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did not make intoxicating wine. But people have ignored these verses and they see what they want to see (And make false accusations or personal attacks against me).



I believe it was wine, too. It was just fresh new wine from the cluster of the grape that was non intoxicating. Formenting? Most likely, yes. But was it fully formented and or highly alcoholic? No.



Uh, no. If for a second, Jesus broke any of the Laws then He could not fulfill the Old Testament Law upon the cross so as to be our substitute. Also, God does not make Laws so He can break them, either. God has Laws because He is righteous and they are His standard of what is good to Him.

Murder is not the same thing as executing God's Judgments by His Command. One is selfishly motivated and the other is selflessly motivated because it is trusting in God. For example: If a person kills themselves it would be suicide. This is selfish. However, if a person takes a bullet for their best friend so as to save them then they are being selfless. Both actions can appear to be similar but they are very different (I assure you).

Also, God would never give a command that would contradict His Holy Law He has established. Can God change the Laws? Yes He can. In fact, He did so when Jesus died upon the cross and fulfilled the Law of Moses. But that does not mean God eliminated all forms of Laws or justice, though. There are still the moral laws or the Law of love which exists in the New Testament.

Jeremiah 51:39
“When they become heated up, I will serve them their banquet And make them drunk, that they may become jubilant And may sleep a perpetual sleep And not wake up,” declares the Lord.

I know that you will claim that there is some kind of reasoning that makes this statement void. But "I will make them drunk...declares the Lord"!!! This is a sign of impending judgment. This is the reason that Jesus gave fermented wine and according to John, He immediately follows with cleansing the Temple.

It is the same as hardening the heart of Pharaoh after he had already hardened his heart on his own.

 

[Agricola]

Yes, nice magic trick (Look over here and don't look at that) type distraction. Again, not going to.work. Besides, have you ever considered in examining both sides of the issue? Have you ever written down all the good and bad that alcohol causes? Do you think it causes more good or more bad? If intoxicating beverages cause more harm than good than how could Jesus promote it?

Another cult tactic, make out the person is up to tricks and clever shenanigans in underhanded attempt to prove a point, well sorry that is not the case, that is born out of paranioa and the delusion that King James is right and everything else is wrong.

Everything in the world can be used for bad and evil. I can drink alcohol and enjoy it and not get intoxicated, Children in Europe especially France are given wine to drink at meal times, but it is watered down, which is how people used to drink it 2000 years ago, which I have commented on countless times.

As I consume drink in moderation, it is not a problem, do you not think that the HOly SPirit would have screamed at me to put the drink down? It is the same when it comes to reading the King James, I have not been told that I should give up all other versions, only humans like yourself have told me that, so who am I to agree with, GOd or Holy Spirit?

Before you say "well this is what God says in the Bible", sure, but where does God say directly in the King James that no other Bibles should be read apart from this? it dosn't, it also does not say alcahol is evil ,it just says getting drunk and addiction of drink is wrong. Anything else is your interpretation of it, often twisted to your own agenda, such as abstaining from drink and in order to prevent the King James Onlyist house of cards from crashing down.

 

[Agricola]

Y Have you ever written down all the good and bad that alcohol causes? Do you think it causes more good or more bad? If intoxicating beverages cause more harm than good than how could Jesus promote it?

But do they? God gave us ability to make alcohol it is a gift to us, but like all things we have abused it and Satan has taken it. Scientific studies are showing how much of a benefit drinking in moderation can be, drinking a unit or two of alcohol each day, especially with a meal is moderation, not getting drunk, which is the sin.

From the Medical Daily 7 Health Benefits Of Drinking Alcohol

• Lower Your Risk Of Cardiovascular Disease
  
• Lengthen Your Life
• Helps Prevent Against the Common Cold
• Decrease Chances Of Developing Dementia
• Reduce The Risk Of Gallstones
• Lowers The Chance Of Diabetes

Report from the BBC.
BBC News - Alcohol in moderation 'can help prevent heart disease'

 

[BradC]

But do they? God gave us ability to make alcohol it is a gift to us, but like all things we have abused it and Satan has taken it. Scientific studies are showing how much of a benefit drinking in moderation can be, drinking a unit or two of alcohol each day, especially with a meal is moderation, not getting drunk, which is the sin.

From the Medical Daily 7 Health Benefits Of Drinking Alcohol

• Lower Your Risk Of Cardiovascular Disease
  
• Lengthen Your Life
• Helps Prevent Against the Common Cold
• Decrease Chances Of Developing Dementia
• Reduce The Risk Of Gallstones
• Lowers The Chance Of Diabetes

Report from the BBC.
BBC News - Alcohol in moderation 'can help prevent heart disease'

With this post you are encouraging people to consume alcoholic beverages for the promotion of good health. Are you trying to tell others that we can not promote good health in other ways without consuming alcoholic beverages? The risk of consuming alcohol long term is not as beneficial as you think nor short term with how it can effect the neurotransmitters between brain cells and put the individual in a state that can compromise conviction, lower restraints and lead to making bad decisions and misguided judgments. The earlier in life this is promoted the greater effect is has short and long term and that would involve the soul and body of a person.