If you believe Jesus asked us to take up real physical swords than you actually have to prove that he wanted them to take up real swords and not spiritual swords. For do you remember later when Jesus rebuked Peter for chopping off one of the guards ears? Did Jesus say, "Good Job Peter!" "You did what I asked" No. Jesus did not say that to Peter. He said something entirely different to him.
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Are you for real? The disciples had no need for a sword while the Lord was on the earth. His charge to them to take the sword was for when He was gone. There is a time and a place for a sword and the garden was not one of them. I am saddened that you are unable to grasp these simple truths.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Absolutely I think it is fine....
Remember, it was God who led His people out of Egypt knowing full well that they would have to fight and have to defend themselves....just to mention one of the battles.
Ephesians 6:10-18
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
Remember, it was God who led His people out of Egypt knowing full well that they would have to fight and have to defend themselves....just to mention one of the battles.
Ephesians 6:10-18
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
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It is. But then again, anyone with the nerve to make that first strike on your cheek, shall gladly hit you in the other one should you offer it to their abuse.
And if you abuse yourself, as a temple wherein the Holy Ghost resides, what do you say to God when he gave you the life you live for his honor and glory?
"I'm worthy of being beaten. I'm worthy of dying at the hand of an evil one who takes pleasure in my timidity as I stand and accept their punches. Or, their rape of my body."
Jesus took a whip to the money changers who were desecrating the worship and ritual of God. He defended with a whip the sanctity of that sacred space.
How can we then allow ourselves to be abused as sacred vessels of the Holy Spirit when evil thinks to beat us and even remove us from this God given life?
And if you abuse yourself, as a temple wherein the Holy Ghost resides, what do you say to God when he gave you the life you live for his honor and glory?
"I'm worthy of being beaten. I'm worthy of dying at the hand of an evil one who takes pleasure in my timidity as I stand and accept their punches. Or, their rape of my body."
Jesus took a whip to the money changers who were desecrating the worship and ritual of God. He defended with a whip the sanctity of that sacred space.
How can we then allow ourselves to be abused as sacred vessels of the Holy Spirit when evil thinks to beat us and even remove us from this God given life?
Well Christians are showed it is OK to carry a sword or gun because Christians are in God's Army and at any time God may say to use that gun. Remember the 300 Christians that were rounded up and feed to the lions did anyone read about them defending themselves.
God says to love and even help the enemy maybe loveless the enemy but still let them see what a Christian is and not some one who will do the same thing the enemy is doing. God in His Word points out that being a Christian is a hard job and Jesus gave the example to fallow and He did not fight back He lived and died and did no harm to anyone.
The Bible does talk about God looking out for His followers but there are followers that are not sincere plus He never said bad thing wont happen to a Christian. Again being a Christian is a hard job and it is even harder for the Church leaders who work in the line of fire to get God's Word out.
Mac.
God says to love and even help the enemy maybe loveless the enemy but still let them see what a Christian is and not some one who will do the same thing the enemy is doing. God in His Word points out that being a Christian is a hard job and Jesus gave the example to fallow and He did not fight back He lived and died and did no harm to anyone.
The Bible does talk about God looking out for His followers but there are followers that are not sincere plus He never said bad thing wont happen to a Christian. Again being a Christian is a hard job and it is even harder for the Church leaders who work in the line of fire to get God's Word out.
Mac.
it's important for all of us to actually read and believe the scripture, not read it, compare it to our own personal morals and thought, and then twist and re-interpret to suit ourselves.
He said to them,
“But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors' ;
and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me.
Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
(Luke 22:36-37)
anyone know how to sell a cloak in order to buy a "spiritual sword" ?
The disciples said,
"See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That's enough!"
he replied.
(Luke 22:38)
anyone know how to show someone two "spiritual swords" ??
i hope this doesn't devolve into a fruitless and exasperating greek word-study with arguments over whether the word sword means sword or not. . .
Jesus said get a sword. He said two swords were enough for the whole group.
if that offends me, i need to get over it.
yes, i own a sword. a real one.
i also have a spiritual one. i prefer one over the other, but it doesn't mean i don't have both.
He said to them,
“But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors' ;
and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me.
Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”
(Luke 22:36-37)
anyone know how to sell a cloak in order to buy a "spiritual sword" ?
The disciples said,
"See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That's enough!"
he replied.
(Luke 22:38)
anyone know how to show someone two "spiritual swords" ??
i hope this doesn't devolve into a fruitless and exasperating greek word-study with arguments over whether the word sword means sword or not. . .
Jesus said get a sword. He said two swords were enough for the whole group.
if that offends me, i need to get over it.
yes, i own a sword. a real one.
i also have a spiritual one. i prefer one over the other, but it doesn't mean i don't have both.
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Self defense and war defense
Matthew 5:43-44
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mac: Love to all not hate and or murder and such.
Matthew 26:51-52
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mac: Love not murder by sword plus notice the fact that one who followed also carried a sword and Jesus did not say to toss it away. I have guns at home but I do not use them to take human life nor does it mean I support such.
Luke 22:33-40
And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. [34] And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. [35] And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. [36] Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. [37] For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. [38] And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Mac: Two swords are enough? Two are enough for what?
Surly one cannot see support for taking human life in theses verses just because someone did not have a sword. Find a few more translations and see if you can gleam more from this story that at first it seemed to say per the many.
[39] And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. [40] And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
Mac: what kinds of temptations are in this story?
Isaiah 53:12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Mac: Is this what was written that is talked about in the above verse? Could it be that He looked more like a transgressor when His followers carried swords as the custom was? Anyhow if one just does a search on key words like love and such one can find many examples of not doing what so many say one must do and that is taking life by war and by self defense.
Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Mac: Yes many can find ways to say these support verses do not mean what they say but that is not my problem it is the problem of the many.
Mac.
Matthew 5:43-44
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mac: Love to all not hate and or murder and such.
Matthew 26:51-52
And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. [52] Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Mac: Love not murder by sword plus notice the fact that one who followed also carried a sword and Jesus did not say to toss it away. I have guns at home but I do not use them to take human life nor does it mean I support such.
Luke 22:33-40
And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. [34] And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. [35] And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. [36] Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. [37] For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. [38] And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Mac: Two swords are enough? Two are enough for what?
Surly one cannot see support for taking human life in theses verses just because someone did not have a sword. Find a few more translations and see if you can gleam more from this story that at first it seemed to say per the many.
[39] And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him. [40] And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.
Mac: what kinds of temptations are in this story?
Isaiah 53:12
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Mac: Is this what was written that is talked about in the above verse? Could it be that He looked more like a transgressor when His followers carried swords as the custom was? Anyhow if one just does a search on key words like love and such one can find many examples of not doing what so many say one must do and that is taking life by war and by self defense.
Romans 12:17-21
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. [18] If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. [19] Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. [20] Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. [21] Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Mac: Yes many can find ways to say these support verses do not mean what they say but that is not my problem it is the problem of the many.
Mac.
Yes there is nothing wrong with self defense but there is something wrong with hurting others in any way so what will you do to avoid hurting others when there is no way out of a problem?
You said to Always try to avoid the worse case situation if possible. But what if it is not possible what will you do?
Mac.
You said to Always try to avoid the worse case situation if possible. But what if it is not possible what will you do?
Mac.
K
If you can not avoid the altercation, and the worse case situation takes place and you do end up severely hurting them or even as far as kill them.
Speaking of myself, if that was to happen the first thing I would do is ask God to forgive for what I did.
And knowing that we have a just Lord and Savior I will be forgiven.
The next thing I would do is speak to him if he is still alive and try to reconcile our differences, and speak to him about our Lord.
If I killed him in the altercation, then I would go to his family and apologize to them for what had conspired.
And bring the word of the Lord to them as well.
Speaking of myself, if that was to happen the first thing I would do is ask God to forgive for what I did.
And knowing that we have a just Lord and Savior I will be forgiven.
The next thing I would do is speak to him if he is still alive and try to reconcile our differences, and speak to him about our Lord.
If I killed him in the altercation, then I would go to his family and apologize to them for what had conspired.
And bring the word of the Lord to them as well.
O
the problem is that there are many answers givin within the church. i tend to lean strongly towards the anabaptist approach. the amish, mennonites, hutterites, and a few other anabaptist groups suffered persecuton from both sides during the reformation and have been persecuted in many countries. they dont think of themselves as "pacifists" but rather as "non resistant christians" who will overcome evil with good. much of this theology is based on the life of the early church. sometimes "sola scriptura" can block us from much truth that is in non biblical sources.
I have read Luke 22:35-38 and before and after and there is nothing about the swords used for protection but it does say they had what was needed the one for that one person who did not have one. Nothing was said about using a sword on a human just that one must have a sword maybe it is like a tie at a dance the custom of the day.
Remember The bible teaches to do what the government says to follow such things but to first follow God. Please read that story again thinking about what I have said not because I said it but because God say to check out everything.
Mac.
Remember The bible teaches to do what the government says to follow such things but to first follow God. Please read that story again thinking about what I have said not because I said it but because God say to check out everything.
Mac.
If the only way to protect the meek is to harm the attacker, you harm the attacker. If a woman is being attacked by 3 men should I ask them to stop? grab one and get beaten unconscious so they can continue? or begin the tedious act of shutting them down one by one? Does anybody here think that a man is not to protect his family?
The real problem is God says He will care for His followers yet most of His followers are not obeying what He has said and it does not help for you to tell someone to beat someone up! that is teaching that two wrongs make a right and that is not a Bible teaching.
I have read some of your posts and you seem sincere but remember God says He will be more harder on teachers who mislead others so teachers the Church leaders must be very careful what they say. Everyone makes mistakes we all do it but when a teacher makes a mistake it can hurt many others.
Mac.
I have read some of your posts and you seem sincere but remember God says He will be more harder on teachers who mislead others so teachers the Church leaders must be very careful what they say. Everyone makes mistakes we all do it but when a teacher makes a mistake it can hurt many others.
Mac.
