Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Something the Lord showed me concerning Proverbs 23:31-32...
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
In the above verses, we see an interesting piece of wisdom being given by the wise king Solomon to his son. The advice is to not even look upon wine when it has begun to ferment. Verse 31 is speaking of the wine when it has begun to ferment. “when it moveth itself aright” is speaking of the boiling, the effervescence… the fermenting process. When it has begun to ferment, it is best not to even look upon it. For, looking intently upon it, one will surely be deceived by it into approving of it and subsequently enjoying it.
So, the wise advice is to turn away from it when it is fermenting. Why?
Because verse 32 reveals that once it is fully fermented, it is highly dangerous. “at the last", when the fermentation process is completed, "it biteth like a serpent and stingeth like an adder.” It is just as poisonous to the organs of the human body as a poisonous snake. It has toxins in it that damage the vital organs of the human body. “whosoever is deceived by it is not wise.”
When one partakes of the intoxicant, it does not just go to the stomach and out into the draught. The poison enters the bloodstream, coursing through the veins and arteries, traveling with the blood into every vital organ; brain, heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, etc.. Not much different than the bite of a venomous snake. The body is poisoned in both cases.
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
In the above verses, we see an interesting piece of wisdom being given by the wise king Solomon to his son. The advice is to not even look upon wine when it has begun to ferment. Verse 31 is speaking of the wine when it has begun to ferment. “when it moveth itself aright” is speaking of the boiling, the effervescence… the fermenting process. When it has begun to ferment, it is best not to even look upon it. For, looking intently upon it, one will surely be deceived by it into approving of it and subsequently enjoying it.
So, the wise advice is to turn away from it when it is fermenting. Why?
Because verse 32 reveals that once it is fully fermented, it is highly dangerous. “at the last", when the fermentation process is completed, "it biteth like a serpent and stingeth like an adder.” It is just as poisonous to the organs of the human body as a poisonous snake. It has toxins in it that damage the vital organs of the human body. “whosoever is deceived by it is not wise.”
When one partakes of the intoxicant, it does not just go to the stomach and out into the draught. The poison enters the bloodstream, coursing through the veins and arteries, traveling with the blood into every vital organ; brain, heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, etc.. Not much different than the bite of a venomous snake. The body is poisoned in both cases.
More baloney. What is your occupation? Are you a butcher? You definitely are not a winemaker.
You have made this statement (about decay blah blah blah) around a half dozen times, without being challenged to my recollection.
Fermentation is a natural process that God created to preserve food and drink in ancient times. Back in the day when we didn't have all these modern marvels to preserve food and drink.
People might be healthier today if they preserved food and drink God's way instead of eating and drinking products loaded with chemicals.
You might be interested in what the people at Cooking God's Way have to say:
Lacto-fermentation: Ten Biggest Questions Answered — Cooking God's Way
You have made this statement (about decay blah blah blah) around a half dozen times, without being challenged to my recollection.
Fermentation is a natural process that God created to preserve food and drink in ancient times. Back in the day when we didn't have all these modern marvels to preserve food and drink.
People might be healthier today if they preserved food and drink God's way instead of eating and drinking products loaded with chemicals.
You might be interested in what the people at Cooking God's Way have to say:
Lacto-fermentation: Ten Biggest Questions Answered — Cooking God's Way
Don't know why you are sending disinformation. For I never believed nor said that grape juice and yeast mixed together does not ferment. My posts here say otherwisel; And the reason why I provided the link to the article (proves that, too). For I posted the article to show you how a person can take ordinary grape juice and yeast and it can ferment into an intoxicating beverage within a certain amount of time. I am not in disagreement on that fact. What I want to know from either you and or others here is how long does it take for the amount juice that Jesus made for it to turn into an intoxicating substance. It is my contention that it takes several days. This is important to point out because Jesus did not give his beverage time to ferment. And we know from the testimony of Scripture that God has never created anything that was the process of death before. God has always created life. To say that he creates a process that represents death is the opposite of Life. Death and decay is the opposite of what God does within our hearts. God always creates life. Not death. For God will one day destroy death.
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First, Jesus made the wine at his Mother's request. If he had refused, he would have sinned against the commandment, "honor your father and mother". Second if what he created was not wine (the best) he would have against the commandment, "do not bear false witness".
Now, John explains this miracle in John 2:11 "This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him". I don't see anywhere in this explanation that has to do with the alcohol content. He did the miracle because His Mother asked Him to. In doing so, because the disciples saw what happened, He used the miracle to teach His disciples of His glory, and as a result they believed on (in) Him.
Again, whether the wine was alcoholic or not is not addressed. I don't believe that it is relevant.
Also addressing the verse relating to the new wine is in the cluster of grapes. The wine making process of the time squeezed the juice out of the grape clusters. Everything required to make new wine was squeezed from the grape cluster. Thus the new wine is in the grape cluster. If you wish to believe that there was no alcohol in the wine of the Scriptures, do so. That belief and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee off the dollar menu. The same is true of the contra belief. Neither belief will earn you eternal life, nor will either add to anyone's understanding of the Scriptures.
Do you want a good reason not to drink wine. Join Jesus and do not partake of it until we are together with Him in Heaven. I know that He did not command us not to, but it is a great way to honor Him.
Now, John explains this miracle in John 2:11 "This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth His glory; and His disciples believed on Him". I don't see anywhere in this explanation that has to do with the alcohol content. He did the miracle because His Mother asked Him to. In doing so, because the disciples saw what happened, He used the miracle to teach His disciples of His glory, and as a result they believed on (in) Him.
Again, whether the wine was alcoholic or not is not addressed. I don't believe that it is relevant.
Also addressing the verse relating to the new wine is in the cluster of grapes. The wine making process of the time squeezed the juice out of the grape clusters. Everything required to make new wine was squeezed from the grape cluster. Thus the new wine is in the grape cluster. If you wish to believe that there was no alcohol in the wine of the Scriptures, do so. That belief and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee off the dollar menu. The same is true of the contra belief. Neither belief will earn you eternal life, nor will either add to anyone's understanding of the Scriptures.
Do you want a good reason not to drink wine. Join Jesus and do not partake of it until we are together with Him in Heaven. I know that He did not command us not to, but it is a great way to honor Him.
Sorry, death and decay are not a part of God's original good creation. For the Scriptures say that the last enemy that should be destroyed is death. I believe that. Do you?
Also, grapes are dead when the yeast is feeding off it's sugars. Grapes are not screaming for dear life as the yeast eats it's sugars. Nor are the grapes zombie grapes or the living dead either. The grapes are dead and it is a process of the fruit while it is decayed and not a process of life.
Also, grapes are dead when the yeast is feeding off it's sugars. Grapes are not screaming for dear life as the yeast eats it's sugars. Nor are the grapes zombie grapes or the living dead either. The grapes are dead and it is a process of the fruit while it is decayed and not a process of life.
Narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that find it. Not many. Granted, I am not saying that everyone who does not believe as we do on this topic is not saved, but having proper knowledge of God's Word should be a natural part of a believer's life and or walk with God, though. For Jesus said to the disciples that he gave them to know about the mysteries of the Kingdom. In other words, true believers are in the minority and not the majority.
Here is my answer to this in a new thread I created.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...s-one-perfect-word-god-thru-out-time-ism.html
The statistics of alcohol have been colored in favor of the alcohol industry. How so?
Here is a really good article from Lavista Church.
Source:
Drinking in the Old Testament
Here is a really good article from Lavista Church.
I was speaking to a teenager at a high school conference and one fellow came up to me and said, "Now, Doc, I don't drink, and I don't intend to drink, but actually, what is wrong with a friendly glass of beer?"
I said, "Do you know anything about the chemistry of alcohol?"
"No," he said, "I don't."
I said, "Alcohol is one of the greatest blessing God ever gave us."
"Is it? I thought it was just a curse," he said.
"No, it is a great blessing. The two reagents on a chemist's reagents rack which he uses as solvents are alcohol and water. Alcohol dehydrates and it dissolves. It is a marvelous thing. The photographic industry, tinctures, dyes, medicines, all kinds of things make use of alcohol.
There are about 19 kinds of commercial alcohol which brilliant chemists have developed, and we produce them by the tons. The kind of alcohol you drink is one type (ethyl), and the kind you put in your radiator is another kind (methyl). But all alcohols are poisons. In the body, they are going to cause ill effects. The reason is that they dehydrate and they dissolve.
Have you got a little imagination? Let us do a little chemical experiment here in your imagination. Let us take 16 bottles. In the first eight let us put alcohol and in the last eight let us put water. Over here we will see that alcohol dissolves, and here that it hardens.
Take, for example, some kind of fat and put it on water. It will just float around. What if we put fat in alcohol? Shake it up and it will dissolve. Take some resin, put it in alcohol, shake it up and it will dissolve. It goes to the bottom of water and stays. What happens to camphor? It floats on the water. Put it in alcohol and it will dissolve. We have fat, resin, and camphor. They will dissolve in alcohol. Put a green leaf in alcohol and it will take the color out. Now put these things in water and nothing happens. Now shift over here. Put a little bit of bread in alcohol. What will happen? It will get hard. Put a piece of meat in alcohol. What will happen? It will get hard, it dehydrates, it takes the water out of the meat.
Now this dehydrating and dissolving are the characteristics of alcohol which make it a great blessing. But, friends, when it goes down your gullet, it does not know if it is inside or outside. As soon as it gets in there it begins to work in the same way. It is not affected by gastric juices. It is absorbed through the walls of the stomach into the bloodstream and all your nerves and your brain are bathed with it. Every nerve has fatty substance called lipoid and the moment alcohol touches it, what happens? The alcohol dissolves it. When you dissolve the covering and insulation of the nerves, it is just like a telephone exchange with the insulation off. You do not get the message through to the proper source. This is why men stagger. They call for their right leg to act and the left leg gets the message. When alcohol goes into the heart of the nerves, that happens to be like the white of an egg. Alcohol cooks it. Alcohol is a great harm to the human body and mind because of these two properties of dissolving and dehydrating. Furthermore, alcohol is a narcotic, a deterrent of normal body functions. It is poison which adversely affects our judgment and self-control. It is, we believe, a harm to our offspring because it poisons the life-giving cells."
We talked for half an hour; and finally the teenager said, "Sir, that's the first time I have ever had an intelligent answer as to why I shouldn't drink beer. Thank God you told us."
I said, "Do you know anything about the chemistry of alcohol?"
"No," he said, "I don't."
I said, "Alcohol is one of the greatest blessing God ever gave us."
"Is it? I thought it was just a curse," he said.
"No, it is a great blessing. The two reagents on a chemist's reagents rack which he uses as solvents are alcohol and water. Alcohol dehydrates and it dissolves. It is a marvelous thing. The photographic industry, tinctures, dyes, medicines, all kinds of things make use of alcohol.
There are about 19 kinds of commercial alcohol which brilliant chemists have developed, and we produce them by the tons. The kind of alcohol you drink is one type (ethyl), and the kind you put in your radiator is another kind (methyl). But all alcohols are poisons. In the body, they are going to cause ill effects. The reason is that they dehydrate and they dissolve.
Have you got a little imagination? Let us do a little chemical experiment here in your imagination. Let us take 16 bottles. In the first eight let us put alcohol and in the last eight let us put water. Over here we will see that alcohol dissolves, and here that it hardens.
Take, for example, some kind of fat and put it on water. It will just float around. What if we put fat in alcohol? Shake it up and it will dissolve. Take some resin, put it in alcohol, shake it up and it will dissolve. It goes to the bottom of water and stays. What happens to camphor? It floats on the water. Put it in alcohol and it will dissolve. We have fat, resin, and camphor. They will dissolve in alcohol. Put a green leaf in alcohol and it will take the color out. Now put these things in water and nothing happens. Now shift over here. Put a little bit of bread in alcohol. What will happen? It will get hard. Put a piece of meat in alcohol. What will happen? It will get hard, it dehydrates, it takes the water out of the meat.
Now this dehydrating and dissolving are the characteristics of alcohol which make it a great blessing. But, friends, when it goes down your gullet, it does not know if it is inside or outside. As soon as it gets in there it begins to work in the same way. It is not affected by gastric juices. It is absorbed through the walls of the stomach into the bloodstream and all your nerves and your brain are bathed with it. Every nerve has fatty substance called lipoid and the moment alcohol touches it, what happens? The alcohol dissolves it. When you dissolve the covering and insulation of the nerves, it is just like a telephone exchange with the insulation off. You do not get the message through to the proper source. This is why men stagger. They call for their right leg to act and the left leg gets the message. When alcohol goes into the heart of the nerves, that happens to be like the white of an egg. Alcohol cooks it. Alcohol is a great harm to the human body and mind because of these two properties of dissolving and dehydrating. Furthermore, alcohol is a narcotic, a deterrent of normal body functions. It is poison which adversely affects our judgment and self-control. It is, we believe, a harm to our offspring because it poisons the life-giving cells."
We talked for half an hour; and finally the teenager said, "Sir, that's the first time I have ever had an intelligent answer as to why I shouldn't drink beer. Thank God you told us."
Source:
Drinking in the Old Testament
So how exactly is drinking an intoxicating beverage that destroys families and homes every several minutes a good way to honor Him? How is a written record of Jesus approval of alcoholic intoxicating beverages good to the alcholic who struggles with alcohol? Would not the alcholic read John chapter 2 from your perspective and get a "green light" to go ahead to continue to drink himself to death (By your account of the events)? Why would God influence people to drink intoxicating beverages when it can cause so much hurt, addiction, and destruction? Was not Jesus' miracle supposed to reveal God's glory? (John 2:11).
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I guess you didn't read the 1238 previous posts on this thread.
Jason0047 keeps talking about the right and wrong of drinking alcohol. And he keeps talking about the higher road, which of course he says he is on while most of the rest of us are not.
Now, most of the rest of us are interested in whether or not Jesus turned water into wine (alcoholic) or grape juice (nonalcoholic) at the wedding at Cana. Most of the rest of us follow the reasonable man (or woman) doctrine. What would a reasonable man (or woman) believe?
What is the burden of proof? The reasonable man (or woman) would accept the preponderance of evidence, biblical and otherwise. That preponderance of evidence indicates that Jesus created an alcoholic drink.
Jason0047 keeps talking about the right and wrong of drinking alcohol. And he keeps talking about the higher road, which of course he says he is on while most of the rest of us are not.
Now, most of the rest of us are interested in whether or not Jesus turned water into wine (alcoholic) or grape juice (nonalcoholic) at the wedding at Cana. Most of the rest of us follow the reasonable man (or woman) doctrine. What would a reasonable man (or woman) believe?
What is the burden of proof? The reasonable man (or woman) would accept the preponderance of evidence, biblical and otherwise. That preponderance of evidence indicates that Jesus created an alcoholic drink.