Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[Sharp]

I'm doing my best to understand predestination, but its confusing. I know there's a million threads on this but they don't answer my questions.


I have come to the conclusion, that God has predestined some people to be saved. I can't see another way to interpet the following verses:


Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will


Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.



However, if this is the case, what about the people that God didn't predestine to be adopted or chosen? I've heard it said that God doesn't predestine people to hell. What then, was their destiny, if they even had one, before the creation of the world? If they weren't predestined to be believers, what were they predestined to be? Were they predestined at all?


How can it be that God predestines some to be saved, but the ones who aren't predestined, for them it is not said that they are predestined to hell?



1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth



God wants ALL to be saved, and yet, only predestines some to be saved. I understand that God can want something to happen and yet let something else happen.


Also, I understand that the concept of "fairness" doesn't apply here, as, if God were to be completely fair, all would go to hell and none would be saved. God has given a gift to those he has chosen.


What I don't understand is, how can the unsaved not be predestined to hell, if the saved, or elect, are predestined to be saved?

 

[watchmen]

I'm doing my best to understand predestination, but its confusing. I know there's a million threads on this but they don't answer my questions.


I have come to the conclusion, that God has predestined some people to be saved. I can't see another way to interpet the following verses:


Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will


Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.



However, if this is the case, what about the people that God didn't predestine to be adopted or chosen? I've heard it said that God doesn't predestine people to hell. What then, was their destiny, if they even had one, before the creation of the world? If they weren't predestined to be believers, what were they predestined to be? Were they predestined at all?


How can it be that God predestines some to be saved, but the ones who aren't predestined, for them it is not said that they are predestined to hell?



1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth



God wants ALL to be saved, and yet, only predestines some to be saved. I understand that God can want something to happen and yet let something else happen.


Also, I understand that the concept of "fairness" doesn't apply here, as, if God were to be completely fair, all would go to hell and none would be saved. God has given a gift to those he has chosen.


What I don't understand is, how can the unsaved not be predestined to hell, if the saved, or elect, are predestined to be saved?

This might help I hope it does. God predestines us ALL to be saved, that is His will, but He does not force Himself on us He wants us to choose to love him. So although He sent His Son for us all to reconcile us all to Himself, only those that receive this reconciliation will be saved. People go to Hell because they reject salvation not because God did not predestine them.

You quoted this verse....
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
So let me ask you this who did God foreknow? He foreknew us ALL, therefore He has predestined us all

 

[tryingtofindhim]

God is all knowing but he doesn't choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. I mean its kind of like a father who tells his kids not to get into some cookies or they will get spanked and if they don't they get a cookie later. He most likely knows which kids will take the cookies and which kids will not. I believe the predestined part in Romans 8:29 is talking about people who are already saved and he is predestining them to have something great come from the father. I concluded that from the other verses in the chapter.

 

[watchmen]

God is all knowing but he doesn't choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. I mean its kind of like a father who tells his kids not to get into some cookies or they will get spanked and if they don't they get a cookie later. He most likely knows which kids will take the cookies and which kids will not. I believe the predestined part in Romans 8:29 is talking about people who are already saved and he is predestining them to have something great come from the father. I concluded that from the other verses in the chapter.

Good thought

 

[Definition_Christ]

The elect is whom God foreknows... It says it right there in Romans 8:29..You posted it. So the elect are those who will be in heaven, whom God knows will make the choice to follow His son. So the elect are the ones whom God foreknew who would be in heaven, were "predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son".. So God doesn't predestine OUR eternity.. He predestines those whom He KNOWS whom He FOREKNOWS to be made in the image of His son. He doesn't choose people to go to hell.. He gives them a choice. He just happens to KNOW what choice they will make. Making them non-Elect.. Which in a sense was never predestined to go to hell but as you said Gods will is that they will be saved. God definitely gives us the choice.. But He just happens to KNOW what choice we will make. So those who go to hell really do make that choice.. But .. God knows they will make that choice.. So.. They are not the "elect" mentioned in Scripture. So if someone is still alive, still breathing. There is an opportunity for them to CHOOSE good over evil!

1 Corinthians 9
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

So Paul wouldn't be using the words "WIN OVER".. If they were predestined an eternity.. He would say "lead them to the truth".. Or.. "Show them what God has predestined them to be"... He says WIN OVER... So if they can be WON over they can be LOST as well... It's a choice they make... It's a work of God of course!!.. God has to make the first move... Yeshua says

John 6
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

He says right there.. IT IS THE WILL of our Father all those whom He leads to Yeshua.. He should lose NONE.. He doesn't say that is going to happen.. He just says it's His will NONE of them perish..
So.. That lines up perfectly with...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There is NOTHING in here about predestination... And it's His will ALL come to repentance.. What if they fail? I mean repentance leads to salvation...

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So.. The sense of predestination in as some put is is not biblical at all. The biblical sense of predestination is God predestines whom He FOREKNOWS.

 

[watchmen]

The elect is whom God foreknows... It says it right there in Romans 8:29..You posted it. So the elect are those who will be in heaven, whom God knows will make the choice to follow His son. So the elect are the ones whom God foreknew who would be in heaven, were "predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son".. So God doesn't predestine OUR eternity.. He predestines those whom He KNOWS whom He FOREKNOWS to be made in the image of His son. He doesn't choose people to go to hell.. He gives them a choice. He just happens to KNOW what choice they will make. Making them non-Elect.. Which in a sense was never predestined to go to hell but as you said Gods will is that they will be saved. God definitely gives us the choice.. But He just happens to KNOW what choice we will make. So those who go to hell really do make that choice.. But .. God knows they will make that choice.. So.. They are not the "elect" mentioned in Scripture. So if someone is still alive, still breathing. There is an opportunity for them to CHOOSE good over evil!

1 Corinthians 9
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

So Paul wouldn't be using the words "WIN OVER".. If they were predestined an eternity.. He would say "lead them to the truth".. Or.. "Show them what God has predestined them to be"... He says WIN OVER... So if they can be WON over they can be LOST as well... It's a choice they make... It's a work of God of course!!.. God has to make the first move... Yeshua says

John 6
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

He says right there.. IT IS THE WILL of our Father all those whom He leads to Yeshua.. He should lose NONE.. He doesn't say that is going to happen.. He just says it's His will NONE of them perish..
So.. That lines up perfectly with...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There is NOTHING in here about predestination... And it's His all ALL come to repentance.. What if they fail? I mean repentance leads to salvation...

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So.. The sense of predestination in as some put is is not biblical at all. The biblical sense of predestination is God predestines whom He FOREKNOWS.

Yes D_C I agree. This was an excellent explanation.

 

[Sharp]

This might help I hope it does. God predestines us ALL to be saved, that is His will, but He does not force Himself on us He wants us to choose to love him. So although He sent His Son for us all to reconcile us all to Himself, only those that receive this reconciliation will be saved. People go to Hell because they reject salvation not because God did not predestine them.

You quoted this verse....
Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
So let me ask you this who did God foreknow? He foreknew us ALL, therefore He has predestined us all

Watchmen I thought this verse referred to just believers, not everyone. I thought this because in the previous verses it talks about those who are called according to his purpose, being those who love God.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Watchmen I thought this verse referred to just believers, not everyone. I thought this because in the previous verses it talks about those who are called according to his purpose, being those who love God.

Love is also a willing action, you can not force someone to love you.

 

[watchmen]

Watchmen I thought this verse referred to just believers, not everyone. I thought this because in the previous verses it talks about those who are called according to his purpose, being those who love God.

I think D_C explained it better than I did, according to what Romans 8:29 is saying specifically, but I do believe God wants All men to be saved, as you also posted `st Timothy 2:4

 

[giantone]

It's a hard question to understand fully.

There are people in the Bible called the wicked and many of these people do nice things and get along with everyone but are going to Hell.


Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory


There are the elect of God and you would think it is a sure thing but the Bible says :


2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

And then the people God chose before they were even born.


Isaiah 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Then there is the Bible verse in my signature below God knows everything, but He chooses not to see everything. What do children do when the parents aren't watching? Some behave and some do not.

 

[motojojo]

All people have a choice of heaven or hell, thats free will. The elect have no choice the Holy Spirit will call on them and draw them to Holiness.

 

[Sharp]

The elect is whom God foreknows... It says it right there in Romans 8:29..You posted it. So the elect are those who will be in heaven, whom God knows will make the choice to follow His son. So the elect are the ones whom God foreknew who would be in heaven, were "predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son".. So God doesn't predestine OUR eternity.. He predestines those whom He KNOWS whom He FOREKNOWS to be made in the image of His son. He doesn't choose people to go to hell.. He gives them a choice. He just happens to KNOW what choice they will make. Making them non-Elect.. Which in a sense was never predestined to go to hell but as you said Gods will is that they will be saved. God definitely gives us the choice.. But He just happens to KNOW what choice we will make. So those who go to hell really do make that choice.. But .. God knows they will make that choice.. So.. They are not the "elect" mentioned in Scripture. So if someone is still alive, still breathing. There is an opportunity for them to CHOOSE good over evil!

1 Corinthians 9
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more;
20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;
22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 Now this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I may be partaker of it with you.

So Paul wouldn't be using the words "WIN OVER".. If they were predestined an eternity.. He would say "lead them to the truth".. Or.. "Show them what God has predestined them to be"... He says WIN OVER... So if they can be WON over they can be LOST as well... It's a choice they make... It's a work of God of course!!.. God has to make the first move... Yeshua says

John 6
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day

He says right there.. IT IS THE WILL of our Father all those whom He leads to Yeshua.. He should lose NONE.. He doesn't say that is going to happen.. He just says it's His will NONE of them perish..
So.. That lines up perfectly with...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

There is NOTHING in here about predestination... And it's His will ALL come to repentance.. What if they fail? I mean repentance leads to salvation...

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

So.. The sense of predestination in as some put is is not biblical at all. The biblical sense of predestination is God predestines whom He FOREKNOWS.

Hey DC, thanks for the detailed reply.

Excuse my ignorance, as I've been reading about this stuff all day and its all a blur, but is what you've described here the Arminian principle of conditional election?

 

[FixYourWeave]

I believe in predestination.

 

[Sharp]

I believe in predestination.

In what way?


Its hard not to believe in it, the bible specifically mentions predestination a few times. But I'm just trying to understand what it means.

 

[FixYourWeave]

In what way?


Its hard not to believe in it, the bible specifically mentions predestination a few times. But I'm just trying to understand what it means.

In the way that i believe in it... Im sure i would only cause an argument if i said how

 

[Sharp]

In the way that i believe in it... Im sure i would only cause an argument if i said how

Hahaha well that's ok. I won't argue, I'm just trying to figure it all out.

Maybe post a disclaimer saying no-one argue with this I'm just expressing my views.

 

[Definition_Christ]

Hey DC, thanks for the detailed reply.

Excuse my ignorance, as I've been reading about this stuff all day and its all a blur, but is what you've described here the Arminian principle of conditional election?

Not familiar with those doctrines. It's funny actually Calvinists will call me an Arminian but I know Calvinist doctrines better than Arminian lol. As a matter of fact I've never studied into Arminian doctrines. I know they believe salvation is based purely on man. Which I do not agree with. The Father draws us to Yeshua, no doubt about that...

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself

As well as the Scripture I posted earlier in John 6. No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws Him. Sorry I wrote so much and didn't address your question.. I really don't know what conditional election doctrine is or what it teaches.

 

[FixYourWeave]

Hahaha well that's ok. I won't argue, I'm just trying to figure it all out.

Maybe post a disclaimer saying no-one argue with this I'm just expressing my views.

DISCLAIMER: I am only expressing my views. I am not open to argue or discuss this with anyone else other than sharp. Well unless sharp starts to argue with me, then i'll just have to ignore him to lol

I believe some are predestin to go to heaven or to hell.

 

[FixYourWeave]

Do you get what i mean.. or do i need to be more detailed about it

 

[Sharp]

Yeah be a bit more detailed about it if you can. How does that view reconcile with God desiring that all be saved?