Righteousness Mat 5:20

[Skinski7]

And there is no godly sorrow without God's enablement.


It's not my theology, it's Paul's theology.
Your disagreement is with Paul, not with me.

Ro 7:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

And if I may add, the fundamental flaw with your "theology" is unbelief of Ro 7:7-8, 4:5.

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God
with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount are based in your rational inability to reconcile

Ro 7:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

What you adhere to is not Paul's theology. You adhere to Reformed Augustinian theology as it has been developed through Martin Luther and John Calvin.

What people like you do is snip isolated verses completely out of their context and then use them as proof texts. Romans 7:7-8 is the perfect example.

You don't believe what Paul is actually teaching in that passage, what you believe is a twisted theology premised on isolating those two verses out of their context. If you continue reading after the verses you quoted it says this...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

You believe human beings are BORN ALREADY DEAD and are thus unable to obey God. Paul clearly states that he was alive before he had understanding but once he had understanding (through law) the ability to rebel was born through which he was thus able to die (to God). Thus sin took occasion by the commandment and slew him. You don't believe that and therefore either ignore it or are forced to explain it away.

You believe that Paul was born already did and that he was born guilty by default due to Adam's sin. Not only that but you believe that Paul lacked any ability to turn from his wrongdoing and yield to God unless God offset his birth corruption by this thing you call Irresistible Grace. In other words you believe and teach SIN ROBOT VICTIMS WHO ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PREDICAMENT.

If human beings are born as sin robots then the blame for their sin is on God who made them that way. What an abominable and evil teaching.

God said to Cain...

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

...yet you cannot believe that. In your theology Cain was born a sin robot and could not accepted by God. If Cain was to be accepted God would have to offset Cain's inability to turn to God first. That is nonsense.

I used to be a Calvinist and I was deceived by people like Paul Washer for many years. I was deceived into believing that there was nothing I could to as far is it pertained to whether I would inherit eternal life or not. I believed that I was either created as a vessel of wrath or a vessel of righteousness and that time would tell as to which one I was. I took the Paul Washer approach of "confessing my sinfulness and depravity" and "cry out to God for help" instead of what the Bible teaches which is REPENT and TURN.

 

[Skinski7]

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God
with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

This quote reveals so much about you.

You have to completely ignore what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount. You have to defy Jesus teaching and imply that He was lying.

Jesus taught...

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus taught INWARD PURITY as the requirement. Jesus did not teach some "righteousness cloak" for "manifest wickedness."

After Jesus spoke those words He stated...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Was he speaking of a "forensic cloak" for a "manifest wicked state" (ie. the righteousness of Christ reckoned to an actual wicked person)??? No way, for Jesus went on to preach about lust in the heart and murder in the heart so as to make it clearly known that God looks at the inward man, the inward motivation of man. Thus it is not simply good enough to "look clean" on the outside like the Pharisees but one must "be clean" on the inside.

At the end of chapter 5 in Matthew it says...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

The word for perfect in the Greek means "moral perfection." You don't believe that, you CANNOT believe that because you believe in Total Depravity.

Calvinists believe this...

V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

Westminster Confession, Ch. 6

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Westminster Confession, Ch. 17

Such teachings imply Jesus is a liar. You don't have to be perfect as God is perfect.

Such teachings also imply that Peter was a liar too.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

You don't believe that such a thing is possible and thus argue in favour of the "manifest wicked" being declared righteous because of this foolish legal declaration you believe in. Yes there is a legal delclaration so to speak but it is one which overlooks PAST REBELLION not present wickedness.

Peter went on to give warning...

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

You are one of those people who wrest Paul's writings and others to their own destruction. Peter warns of falling from being steadfast into the error of the wicked and yet your doctrine teaches Perseverance of the Saints which makes such a warning moot because you believe God is doing it all and human being are mere spectators being bounced along for the ride.

 

[Skinski7]

I find it absolutely incredible beyond belief that people can actually believe that God would declare a child molester, rapist, murderer as righteous whilst they are still engaged in the very act.

Satan once said, "ye shall surely not die" within the context of violating the will of God. That lie is preached far and wide today in seminaries, on radio, and from pulpit platforms everywhere.

Jesus meant exactly what He said when He spoke of heart purity.

...And no we don't cleanse ourselves apart from God. We cleanse ourselves by abiding with God, a state which we enter into through genuine repentance and faith. If we are raping we stop it. if we are molesting children we stop it. If we are viewing porn we stop it. If we are sinning we stop it. Whatever known evil we are doing we stop it and turn to God and God will open our eyes to His ways in ways that are beyond the description of words.

Sinning stops in repentance because we change our minds about it. We come into agreement with God and CHOOSE to refrain from a life of yielding to fleshly temptations in disobedience to God. Thus blessed is the man who endureth temptation for it is he who will receive the crown of life, not those who submit to temptation in disobedience to God.

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Don't be deceived by ear tickling theologies which excuse ongoing sin.

 

[Skinski7]

What does Jesus mean here?

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So going back to the very first post.

Jesus meant that we must be INWARDLY RIGHTEOUSNESS as opposed to having a mere outward form like the Pharisees. Our hearts MUST be pure.

1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[Elin]

That's a FAIL.

How can the unregenerate repent if they cannot do anything that pleases God?

You really don't understand the NT meaning of unregenerate, do you?

Only the rebirth and faith give the unregenerate the power to repent.
And all the reborn are saved sons of God.

How?

The same way the people of Nineveh did, through godly sorrow.

And there is no godly sorrow without God's enablement.

As I said in my previous post the fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is "inability."

It's not my theology, it's Paul's theology.
Your disagreement is with Paul, not with me.

Ro 7:7-8:

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful (unregenerate) nature cannot please God."

Oops! Big mistake!

Although I quoted the passage correctly, I gave it the wrong address.

It should be Ro 8:7-8, not 7:7-8.

Sorry for any confusion.

Ro 4:5:

"God justifies the wicked,"

And if I may add, the fundamental foundational flaw of your theology is unbelief of Ro 7:7-8, 4:5.

Your human reasoningcannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount are based in your rational inability to reconcile

Ro 7:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

What you adhere to is not Paul's theology.

What people like you do is snip isolated verses completely out of their context and then use them as proof texts.
Romans 7:7-8 is the perfect example.

The passage I am using is not Ro 7:7-8. I gave the wrong address for the passage.

 

[Elin]

Your human reasoning cannot reconcile the total inability of unregenerate man in the NT Word of God with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

However, for the born again who were justified in their wickedness,
it's a piece o' cake. . .there is no contradiction.

The scores of objections you mount are based in your rational inability to reconcile

Ro 8:7-8, 4:5 with the righteousness of man required by God for salvation.

This quote reveals so much about you.

You have to completely ignore what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount.
You have to defy Jesus teaching and imply that He was lying.

Non-responsive. . .you do not deal with Ro 8:7-8, 4:5,

you only set Scripture against itself, always a demonstration of failure to correctly understand them.

 

[Elin]

I find it absolutely incredible beyond belief that people can actually believe that God would declare a child molester, rapist, murderer as righteous whilst they are still engaged in the very act.

That's because you measure God by you.

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey,
and you don't really know God.

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

 

[RedTent]

Elin, as a Pauline Christian rather than a Christ centered Christian, your entire theology is based on the idea that Paul spoke against many things. Paul said different, Christ said different. Anytime that is pointed out to you, you say we are wrong and quote the scriptures you say proves all Paul was against. These ideas are so embedded in your mind that you have become blind to any other idea. Here are some scriptures it would be wonderful for the world you minister to if it could be possible for you to consider. them.

2Pe 3:16 He speaks about these things in all his letters in which there are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

Act_25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

Act_28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Paul said that we weren't to hold what is part of our culture against each other:
Col_2:16 Therefore, don't let anyone judge you in regard to food and drink or in the matter of a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

I am fully aware that you read this scripture as Paul saying that any scripture about food, drink, festival and Sabbath is not to be read or thought about, but it isn't saying this. It is speaking of people judging others.

 

[Skinski7]

That's because you measure God by you.

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey,
and you don't really know God.

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

Paul was stopped in his tracks and was presented with a choice. He chose the truth.

Prior to this Paul was a zealous Pharisee serving in ignorance and pride yet dedicated.

Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

The same choice presented to others...

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Act 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Both Paul and these people had ignorance in them due to the blindness of their hearts. Yet when Paul was presented with the truth he yielded to it faithfully and therefore God used him.

1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul did not come clean with God whilst unjustly imprisoning or murdering someone. Paul came clean with God when presented with the truth whereby he chose to yield to that truth and therefore Paul had stopped doing those things. God did not irresistibly draw Paul. Paul was clearly a passionate and dedicated man who was very deceived but obviously had a zeal to do the right thing, thus when God blinded him, on that road to Damascus, Paul chose not to resist.

Paul didn't gradually stop murdering and imprisoning people. He didn't slip back into the occasional stoning. No. He came clean with God via godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation which is a process he specifically taught (see 2Cor 7:10-11).

Paul preached repentance proven by deeds. Why deeds? Because genuine repentance necessitates a change in action, not a gradual change, and instant change, and this change comes BEFORE regeneration. Your doctrine has no real change because it teaches that sinners are "unable" to change, then it teaches that change comes AFTER regeneration and that this change is only partial anyway (as the excerpts from the Westminster Confession above illustrate).

Cain is an example of someone who resisted God's grace and chose to do his own thing. He walked his own way and therefore let his flesh rule.

Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

 

[Skinski7]

So I make a statement like this...

I find it absolutely incredible beyond belief that people can actually believe that God would declare a child molester, rapist, murderer as righteous whilst they are still engaged in the very act.

And you agree with it by stating this...

That's because you measure God by you.

Your theology has zero repentance, not as it is defined in the Bible anyway. You cannot be engaged in child rape and be approaching God at the same time. Nineveh didn't approach God while continuing to party. They put on sackcloth and ashes and fasted and let it be known that "maybe" God will have mercy on them. The Prodigal Son came to his senses in the pig pen and had left before the father restored him. The father did not cloak the prodigal son while he was still in the pig pen, or while he was still rioting around.

James taught...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

I have probably quoted that scripture to you over a dozen times and I don't think you have ever given it any regard. Likewise with...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

There are many more I could quote. Those passages contradict "saved IN sins" and thus are totally ignored by people like you. You instead respond with blanket statements implying your beliefs about God's sovereignty and self righteousness.

It is not self righteous for a porn addict or murderer to forsake those sins when they approach God. It is self righteous when someone remains in rebellion to God and yet think that the standard they set is right. Self righteousness is upholding your own standard of righteous apart from God's standard. It is not self righteous to conform ourselves to God's standard through repentance and faith.

Another thing is that you constantly contradict yourself. Here is an example...

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey,
and you don't really know God.

You'll speak about the conversion of the heart and yet your doctrine teaches...

the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:

Westminter Confession quoted above.

The conversion of heart you speak of is no conversion at all because the sin still continues. Your doctrine is "sin less" or "rebel less." Thus the porn addict remains a Romans wretch struggling with his addiction. A serial murderer keeps on murdering people, just less and less over time. This is the sort of stuff you folks rarely ever address because you cannot address it competently. You are generally forced to just blow it off with statements like this...

Your notions of God are too human, and you make God too small.

Lies crumble under the weight of the truth.

Jesus' very simple teachings on heart purity utterly destroy Reformed Theology. Jesus' very simple teachings on repentance utterly destroy Reformed Theologies redefining the term.

Bible Teaches
Repentance - Changed where rebellion stops.
Grace - God's divine influence on the hearts of men. God's long suffering towards sinners giving them time to repent.
Faith - Faithfulness. Yielding to God from the heart. Obedience to the truth from the heart.
Salvation - Being set free from the bondage of sin whereby sins wages are no longer earned. Abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ whereby we walk by the Spirit.
Cross - Means of approaching God in repentance and faith whereby sin is purged once and for all. We die with Christ and are enjoined into covenant with God by the blood. The blood cleanses us because we are a living sacrifice through repentance and faith.


Reformers Teach
Repentance - Confession of sinfulness. Rebellion continues because men lack the ability to yield to God.
Grace - Free gift of forgiveness for rebels still in rebellion. God irresistibly drawing people to agreement with him yet they still remain in bondage to sin.
Faith - Passive trust. One can be manifestly unfaithful from time to time but so long as they still "trust" all is ok because God does it all for them.
Cross - Enacts a legal exchange where God punishes an innocent in order to let the guilty go (sin is not forgiven, just transferred). The obedience of Jesus is credited to the sinner. Thus rebellion can continue but God pretends the rebel is pure because He pretends they are Jesus.

 

[Elin]

So I make a statement like this...

I find it absolutely incredible beyond belief that people can actually believe that God would declare a child molester, rapist, murderer as righteous whilst they are still engaged in the very act.

And you agree with it by stating this...

That's because you measure God by you.

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey,
and you don't really know God.

The conversion of heart you speak of is no conversion at all because the sin still continues.

Your issue is not with me, it's with John the apostle.
Take it up with him.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and
purify us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:8-9)

You are clueless about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Elin]

Elin, as a Pauline Christian rather than a Christ centered Christian, your entire theology is based on the idea that Paul spoke against many things. Paul said different, Christ said different. Anytime that is pointed out to you, you say we are wrong and quote the scriptures you say proves all Paul was against. These ideas are so embedded in your mind that you have become blind to any other idea. Here are some scriptures it would be wonderful for the world you minister to if it could be possible for you to consider. them.

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[Elin]

Paul was stopped in his tracks and was presented with a choice. He chose the truth.

That is precisely what happens to the wicked whom God justifes (Ro 4:5).

 

[Skinski7]

Your issue is not with me, it's with John the apostle.
Take it up with him.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and
purify us from all unrighteousness." (1Jn 1:8-9)

You are clueless about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am glad you keep responding for it clearly illustrates the house of cards you stand on. I don't have issue with John, you do, it is you who butcher what he wrote by taking snippets out of context.

It appears that all you can do is isolate and proof text verses or passages of scripture completely out of their context and then make blanket statements like "you are clueless." Is that really the paradigm you wish to be in service to?

Your house is built upon sand and therefore it is very easy to tear down.

You approach 1Jn 1:8-9 from a mindset of Total Depravity and Ongoing Sin.

Again you use Bible verses to imply Jesus is a liar. You don't touch the words of Jesus I make reference to where he speaks of moral perfection and heart purity. That stuff is an anathema to your doctrine.

John is not teaching that Christians are perpetual sin machines and that if they don't confess this fact then there is no truth in them. Sure you can support that premise by isolating that verse out of its context but that is butchering the test.

John is teaching the same sentiment as this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

In other words we are to come clean before God about our sin when we approach Him for cleansing. We don't approach God hiding our sin. We confess it.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [John was an eyewitness he tells the reader.]
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. [John declares what he has witnessed so that those hearing the message may share in fellowship, fellowship which is with the Father and Jesus Christ.]
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [This is the message, John is explaining the foundational premise here.]
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: [Our walk (ie. what we do) must match our proclamation otherwise we lie.]
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. [The cleansing of the blood is conditioned on what we do, how we walk.]
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [John is speaking in context of how one comes to be walking in the light as He is in the light. In other words we cannot claim to have no sin when approaching God, we cannot cover our sin, we must come clean. We approach God with a true heart (Heb 10:22) in order to be cleansed.]
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [God is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us if we confess our sins (if we come clean).]
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [Thus if we claim we have not sinned (rebelled) we make God a liar because God convicts us of our sin. We have to receive His word not reject/deny it.]
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [John clearly tell us that he writes this so we don't sin. If any man does sin there is an advocate which is Jesus Christ, He is the propitiation or mercy seat offering by which we can be cleansed.]
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Your a Bible Butcher. You quote 1Joh 1:8-9 and completely ignore the actual context.

Are people who are perpetually sinning keeping His commandments?

Are people who are perpetually sinning walking in the light as He is in the light?

Are people who are perpetually sinning keeping His word?

Are people who are perpetually sinning walking as Jesus walked?

Of course not. Your doctrine is preaching in favour of sinning and then dressing it up in a form of godliness.


Your doctrine utterly denies the possibility of being cleansed from all unrighteousness. You believe you get cleansed over and over again due to a life of continued sin. No wonder you believe a porn addict or a child molester can be saved and then still continue to engage in vile sin. What a horrible religion.

Your god has no power to actually deliver people from their sin because your god is not real. Your god is a theological construct dreamed up in the minds of academia.


Is my issue really with John the apostle? John who connected "manifest deeds" with the "new birth."

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are manifest how? The children of the devil how?

I don't understand how any reasonable person with sound mental faculties can just blow over statements like that and claim they believe what the Bible teaches. People like that don't believe the Bible.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Again I quote from the Westminster Confession, that abominable Calvinist statement of faith...

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

"The prevalence of corruption remaining in them the saints may fall into grevious sin and continue." That is Satan's lie of "ye shall surely not die." What an utter denial of John

 

[Elin]

If you cannot conceive of God stopping a criminal in his tracks midstream
and converting his heart right on the spot in the midst of his act of wickedness,
then you don't understand what happened to Paul on his murderous journey,
and you don't really know God.

The conversion of heart you speak of is no conversion at all because
the sin still continues.

That's the conversion you speak of.

Your issue is not with me, it's with John the apostle.
Take it up with him.

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and
purify us from all unrighteousness."(1Jn 1:8-9)

You are clueless about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Paul was stopped in his tracks and was presented with a choice.
He chose the truth.

That is precisely what happens to the wicked whom God justifes (Ro 4:5).
Your issue is not with me, it's with John the apostle.
Take it up with him.

I am glad you keep responding for it clearly illustrates the house of cards you stand on. I don't have issue with John, you do,
it is you who butcher what he wrote by taking snippets out of context.

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The meaning of 1Jn 2:8-9 is perfectly clear.

Your problem is with the apostle John, not with me.
Take it up with him.