Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

[watchmen]

Watchmen, just out of curiousity, would you call yourself Arminian.

Yes I would. And there very few labels I would place on myself, but I am in total agreement the the Ariminian theology in reference to Salvation, and I DO NOT believe that salvation is based purely on man, matter of fact I believe that we can only be saved by the grace of God. There is absolutely nothing we could ever do to save ourselves. If there was then Christ would not have had to come to Earth suffer and die.

 

[watchmen]

Not familiar with those doctrines. It's funny actually Calvinists will call me an Arminian but I know Calvinist doctrines better than Arminian lol. As a matter of fact I've never studied into Arminian doctrines. I know they believe salvation is based purely on man. Which I do not agree with. The Father draws us to Yeshua, no doubt about that...

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself

As well as the Scripture I posted earlier in John 6. No one can come to the Son unless the Father draws Him. Sorry I wrote so much and didn't address your question.. I really don't know what conditional election doctrine is or what it teaches.

Actually you should study it before making such statements. Arminians do not believe Salvation is based solely on man. As you have stated John 6 makes it clear no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws them. The thing is I believe God draws All men as Christ said He would.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Also as many OSAS believer/Calvinist state We are saved by Grace through faith not of ourselves. There is not one Arminian that will tell you salvation is based on man. However as you yourself stated God does not force Himself on us He give us Choice, and we either choose to reject or accept salvation that is the doctrine of conditional election. The elect are those God knew would choose salvation.

D_C, if you missed my post I have quoted for you.


By the way from the way I read your post you do adhere to the doctrine of condition election.

 

[Definition_Christ]

D_C, if you missed my post I have quoted for you.


By the way from the way I read your post you do adhere to the doctrine of condition election.

Yeah sorry, I missed that, I agree with what you said. Sounds good and Biblical to me.

 

[watchmen]

Yeah sorry, I missed that, I agree with what you said. Sounds good and Biblical to me.

A side note Arminians believe as I and apparently you do. The thought they Arminians believe that salvation depend solely on man is a false straw man set up by calvinist to refute something we do not even teach.

 

[greatkraw]

All people have a choice of heaven or hell, thats free will. The elect have no choice the Holy Spirit will call on them and draw them to Holiness.

That looks like 2 contradictory statements to me.



In His sovereignty God gives man free will.

See 2 Peter 3:9

 

[greatkraw]

Rmember in DS9, one of the last stories concerned Captain Cisco and the Aliens in the wormhole. They were trying to get through to him that time is not necessarily linear. Well it is like that.

God is OUTSIDE of time. That is why he has no problem with being sovereign and also allowing man free will. The two are not mutually exclusive from his perspective..

 

[pickles]

Sharp, Ive wondered about this a few times myself. When I read your post the parable about the king that invited the elite to his sons wedding came to mind. Im sur you know it. The final part of the parable were because the elite did not come because they could not be bothered, so he invited all form the streets and city seemed to exlain it some how. It is not so much about predestination but Our Lord God knowing who will come to the wedding. The final part of the prable really caught my attention. One man who came was not appropriatly dressed , so he was thrown out. As Jesus said , many are invited but the elect are few. I just have to have faith in Jesus and hope Im well dressed. Guess we all need to make sure our outfit is always pressed and ready to go.
God bless, pickles

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

"He That soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; the enemy that sowed them is the devil" Matt. 13:37-38

Seed - sperma. imp. offspring. spec. a remnant;-issue, seed (inc. male seed)

 

[Cup-of-Ruin]

Basically if you are in the kingdom than your born of God, incorruptable seed, that means offspring of God, literally, that is the word sperma (seed), its where we get the english word 'sperm' from.

"All that the Father giveth Me shall come; and him that cometh to Me I will in no way cast out."

 

[shad]

Yes D_C I agree. This was an excellent explanation.

If you agree with D_C explanation of predestination, how can a sinner who has been saved by grace lose the salvation that God foreknew they would receive? God drew them through lovingkindness to His Son and won them over by grace and truth and saved them when they believed. You would have to conclude that the one that God foreknew could never lose the salvation that they had received of the Lord or they would never have been predestinated and placed in Christ. Those He predestinated, He also called, justified and glorified. I do not see any possibility of losing salvation in that progression listed in Rom 8:30 nor do I see any of it being conditioned upon repentance or man's free volition being able to walk away from it because of God's foreknowledge.

This presents a major problem in your concept that a believer who has been predestinated through the foreknowledge of God can lose or revoke their salvation when God did all of it by grace and made it possible by shedding His blood and putting away sin once and for all. The believer that has been predestinated is also reconciled to God which means that God does not impute their sins and trespasses unto them because they were imputed to His Son, our Substitute / 2Cor 5:19.

 

[greatkraw]

Sharp, Ive wondered about this a few times myself. When I read your post the parable about the king that invited the elite to his sons wedding came to mind. Im sur you know it. The final part of the parable were because the elite did not come because they could not be bothered, so he invited all form the streets and city seemed to exlain it some how. It is not so much about predestination but Our Lord God knowing who will come to the wedding. The final part of the prable really caught my attention. One man who came was not appropriatly dressed , so he was thrown out. As Jesus said , many are invited but the elect are few. I just have to have faith in Jesus and hope Im well dressed. Guess we all need to make sure our outfit is always pressed and ready to go.
God bless, pickles

The Biblical model here is that the HOST always provided the wedding garments.

This bloke brought his OWN clobbber!

 

[greatkraw]

If you agree with D_C explanation of predestination, how can a sinner who has been saved by grace lose the salvation that God foreknew they would receive? God drew them through lovingkindness to His Son and won them over by grace and truth and saved them when they believed. You would have to conclude that the one that God foreknew could never lose the salvation that they had received of the Lord or they would never have been predestinated and placed in Christ. Those He predestinated, He also called, justified and glorified. I do not see any possibility of losing salvation in that progression listed in Rom 8:30 nor do I see any of it being conditioned upon repentance or man's free volition being able to walk away from it because of God's foreknowledge.

This presents a major problem in your concept that a believer who has been predestinated through the foreknowledge of God can lose or revoke their salvation when God did all of it by grace and made it possible by shedding His blood and putting away sin once and for all. The believer that has been predestinated is also reconciled to God which means that God does not impute their sins and trespasses unto them because they were imputed to His Son, our Substitute / 2Cor 5:19.

When Jesus died on the cross ALL our sins were FUTURE - God is outside of time.

 

[Buddee]

The whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont’s are the non-elect.


Each is pre-destined to an eternity based on which "fork in the road" they choose.


Pre-destination is not God standing there at the beginning of time saying..."you'll go here, you, you'll go over there...you three will be here, you four will end up over there....you, with the happy face, you get heaven, sorry you two fuss buckets will get hell..."


God's pre-destination and man's free will given to him by God are not mutually exclusive of one another. They work hand in hand.

Unfortunately, man in his finite mindedness, usually tends to grab onto one extreme or the other.

Hence the constant debate.

 

[Thaddaeus]

I heard a calvinist ( Predestination preacher , I think it was MaCarthy ) say that for every will free verse, in the Bible he could find one that supports predestination, and that he himself struggles with some of the will free verses. this is a debate among Christains since 1800's with John Calvin If not before that, and it has not been resolved and will not be resolved here today. and I will say that if the sovereign God chose to allow me to choose if I want to be part of His family then who I am or any body else to say that He can't do that. or If He chose to put some in heaven and some in hell who am I or anybody else to say that He can't do this. the main problem, I have with the calvinist doctrine on Grace is that to preach it, we have to say to that alot of verses in the Bible, don't mean what they say. For example


Joh 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

so the preach predestination we have to say that the world doesn't mean the whole world , but only the world that was predestined, and we have to say that whosoever doesn't mean whosoever it means whom He has chosen, or whom He has forced to believe.

Now personly I believe God gave me a choice, personly I believe he predestined the whole plan of salvation/ Grace, and who chooses Him through This plan then we become part of His grace. most Bible students and scholars will have to agree that it is very important that we know whom the scriptures apply to when it is written, to correctly intrepret scripture. I personly believe that most verses when it states
"elect" that this applies to the Israel nation, The choosen people/nation of God.

Ro 11:26And so ALL ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:



How can God say that all Israel shall be saved, I don't know, I don't know how He is going to save all Isael. I don't know how He ever saved me. But if the elect means those that are predestined, and God has choosen whom these people will be before time begin then we have to say Why the Cross, why preach that His death gave us life, if God gave it to us before time begin, why preach that Jesus is the way. and if Paul was the very first predestination preacher, then why did He preach

2ti 2:10Therefore I endure all things for THE ELECT's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


here even the elect has a option/choice that they may also obtain Life, paul is referring to the Jews/Israel here as well as most verses that talk about the elect. and this is where we misunderstand the salvation/ Grace by how the elect are saved.

 

[Thaddaeus]

I want to bring a point up. which I think very much applies to this topic of predestination. the plan of salvation that God elected to go by, was predetermined before Time begin as we know time . God by his foreknowledge, knew that man would fall, and the plan of salvation through Christ was determined, old testament saints look toward the Cross, we the new testament saints look back to the Cross, but It all involves the Cross, Jesus and Him crucified. so the plan was God said that He didn't want any of His creation to perish, but He knew that all would sin, the wages of sin is death, so He created a plan, for those who would want to love Him, even though they had sinned, if they would accept that God had created away to escape death through Christ, then they would have Life, everlasting life, with Him in His Kingdom. heres the thought. I don't know if we could find anybody, that would say that Adam was not predetermined to live forever before he was ever created. does anyone disagree with this. so let's preach this morning that it was planned by God that Adam was to live forever. ok no problem with This. Ok then could someone please explain to me and everyone else in here, if God created Adam to live forever, then Why did He create the TREE OF LIFE???? could it be that God intended that all live forever, but knew that man would fall, through this fall man would not live forever, but He wanted those that loved Him to still have life. so He created/ gave the World a way to escape death, and we call it GRACE, sovereign Grace through Jesus Christ the tree of life.


Re 22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[shad]

The whosoever wills are the elect, and the whosoever wont’s are the non-elect.


Each is pre-destined to an eternity based on which "fork in the road" they choose.


Pre-destination is not God standing there at the beginning of time saying..."you'll go here, you, you'll go over there...you three will be here, you four will end up over there....you, with the happy face, you get heaven, sorry you two fuss buckets will get hell..."


God's pre-destination and man's free will given to him by God are not mutually exclusive of one another. They work hand in hand.

Unfortunately, man in his finite mindedness, usually tends to grab onto one extreme or the other.

Hence the constant debate.

All of this that you have stated is true and balanced. There is one thing I have to consider when it comes to God's election. The Jews and the nation of Israel are His elect. That election is based upon God's choice and a covenant that He has made with them. They have sinned, rebelled, rejected the Messiah and God has scattered them throughout the whole earth, but God will not forsake the covenant that he has made with them as His elect. He will deal with them and bring them back as a nation and a people who will call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. That election is based on an unconditional covenant that God keeps because it is His covenant that he made with them and not the other way around. In keeping His covenant, He will give them a new and better covenant and write it upon their hearts.

Heb 8:6-13

6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Because of this unconditional covenant that He made with Israel, His elect, is the covenant that we have based upon the blood of Christ and the promises of God any less sure and steadfast in terms of those that He has called which are many. Jesus said you have not chosen me but I have chosen you / John 15:16 and many are called but few are chosen / Mt 20:16. Christ chose every one of the disciples to follow him and one of them was a devil / John 6:70. Justus was chosen but as the son of perdition so that the scriptures would be fulfilled / John 17:12, Acts 1:16, Ps 41:9.

Predestination for the believer is based upon the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the blood that was shed for the remission of sins. This represents the new covenant that God has made with all men through salvation that comes through Christ. That new covenant is sealed by the blood of Christ. When man believes unto salvation they are placed in Christ and under that new covenant sealed by His blood / (86 times in Ephesians we are 'in Christ'). The only way that a sinner can be predestinated is when they are place in Christ at the moment of salvation.

Christ is the only one that has been predestinated by the Father and when we believe upon Him we are placed in Christ and His predestination becomes our predestination and we are hid with Christ in God / Col 3:3. Our predestination is from Christ, not from the will of man or the will of our flesh or choosing, but from God who calls us by His grace, to be in His Son and we responded by faith to that call in our heart and received the imputed gift of God's salvation. There is none that understandeth or seeketh after God, no not one / Rom 3:11. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost / Luke 19:10. We were called, chosen, justified and glorified by the grace of God that is in Christ Jesus unto eternal life / Rom 8:30-33. Nothing, including stupid doctrines that come from stupid people, can separate us from this kind of love and grace that we have received freely from God our Father.

 

[watchmen]

If you agree with D_C explanation of predestination, how can a sinner who has been saved by grace lose the salvation that God foreknew they would receive?

That is s stupid question.

 

[shad]

That is s stupid question.

The more you continue in error the more you will despise the truth and the grace of God. The question puts you and your doctrine in a corner and you do not have an answer, so you have to discredit and belittle the question. You don't want to rub people the wrong way when you think they are responding to you and your doctrine but those that oppose your doctrine you have no use for them and they can just go take a hike. So much for your holiness attitude. It's no wonder you get rejected, you don't have any grace to give people. That's why you believe in these terrible doctrines the way you do. It has nothing to do with interpretation but everything to do with your heart. You malign and accuse believers of being deceived all over the place when they challenge you and the strange way you think concerning those things that are precious to them.

 

[tryingtofindhim]

I believe he wants us all to be saved, but he knows who will and wont accept him right. He knew before we were born what choices we were going to make. And he has given us the free will to decide weather or not we are going to accept him. He could change a sinner instantly, he could cause one who is on the wrong path to turn to him, however he doesnt do this with everyone obviously. So i believe he predestines some to go to hell and some to heaven. Did that make any sense to you??

Then that is not predestination if he wants us all to be saved right? Predestined means that someone else chooses for you to do something and you have no choice which is not what you just described, am I correct?

 

[truthseekr]

I believe the reason we struggle with the doctrine of predestination is that it take us and free will out of the picture. It now becomes God's sovereign choice not ours. Is this so hard to live with? If God is truly in control how can that be bad?

Romans 9:19-23 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The one thread that is maintained in most of the worlds religions is that WE have to DO something and if we fail we are lost. I firmly believe Christ died once for the sins of ALL men, but I do not believe our judgment will be based on sins or moral failure but rather on belief are we believing Christ? Hebrews speaks of this .

Hebrews 3:17-19 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

If we study the King James accurately we realize that text in italics was not in the original ( see the front pages of your KJV)

that being said the text here originally read "But with whom was he grieved forty years? not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Now once we come to terms with that he follows in chapter 4 with

Hebrews 4:9-11 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Enter into rest stop striving on what you need to do but rather strive on being all God has called you to be

Peace in Christ
Bro Jim