Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination Predestination

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Sharp:

Romans 8:29(NASB)(emphasis mine)
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

How does God have foreknowledge of the person He is predestining?
How do you predestine someone when you are outside of time and know everything the person is going to do already?

Think about these questions because it is extremely important in answering your question.
 
Are you saying that because God knew of everyone before he created the world, then everyone is predestined?
 
Are you saying that because God knew of everyone before he created the world, then everyone is predestined?

I am proposing, that because God is outside of time, He can predestine people based on their own decisions.
 
Thanks for that explanation Machew! Very helpful.


NOW I just need to figure out what predestined actually means. If it means that God predestined us to be believers or to be saved.....how are the other people not predestined to hell. If the fate of believers has always been sealed, has not the fate of unbelievers always been sealed? Is then God not creating people for destruction, and does this not conflict with God's loving nature?

God made all people and gave them a GENUINE choice.

The fact that God is outside of time and can see what each person will choose makes the choice NO LESS GENUINE

To God, our lives, and indeed the history of the world, are like a videotape that He can fastforward and rewind at will. He can even put the tape on pause and step into our lives.
 
Sharp,

Predestination is God through His foreknowledge seeing all those who believe unto righteousness being placed in His Son. Predestination for the believer is based upon the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the blood that was shed for the remission of sins. This represents the new covenant that God has made with all men through salvation that comes through Christ. That new covenant is sealed by the blood of Christ and the Holy Spirit of promise. When man believes unto salvation they are placed in Christ under that new covenant / (86 times in Ephesians we are 'in Christ'). The only way that a sinner can be predestinated is when they are placed in Christ at the moment of salvation. As a sinner we are predestinated as children of disobedience unto the wrath and condemnation of God. Being born of God we are predestinated as adopted sons unto eternal life that is in Christ and God knows us.

Christ is the only one that has been predestinated by the Father because he knows His Son and when we believe upon His Son we are placed in Christ and His predestination becomes our predestination and we are hid with Christ in God / Col 3:3. We receive by grace all the He is / 1Cor 1:30, 1Jn 3:2, 4:17. Our predestination is from Christ, not from the will of man or the will of our flesh or choosing, but from God who calls us by His grace, to be in His Son and we responded by faith to that call in our heart and received the imputed gift of God's salvation. It's not by the will of man or the flesh because no one understands or seeks after God, not one / Rom 3:11. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost and that was the will of the Father/ Luke 19:10. We were called, chosen, justified and glorified by the grace of God that is in Christ Jesus unto eternal life / Rom 8:30-33 and nothing can separate us from this kind of love and grace that we have received freely from God our Father, who predestinated us in Christ.
 
Prophecy concerning King Cyrus, who had not yet been born yet had been predestined to a wonderful future...
Isa 45:1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:
Isa 45:2 "I will go before you and level the exalted places, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron,
Isa 45:3 I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
Isa 45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

As for Israel, the rebels...
Isa 48:3 "The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth, and I announced them; then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
Isa 48:4 Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead brass,
Isa 48:5 I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, 'My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.'
Isa 48:6 "You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I announce to you new things, hidden things that you have not known.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, not long ago; before today you have never heard of them, lest you should say, 'Behold, I knew them.'
Isa 48:8 You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.

Predestination is a two edged sword, it's not something easily understood, almost like the trinity. I wish I could explain it, but I can't, the most I can do is show scripture on why God does things a certain way.


 
I am proposing, that because God is outside of time, He can predestine people based on their own decisions.

That's pretty much Arminianism.......? You're saying that God chooses those he know will choose him, giving man a part in his own salvation.......?
 
Funny how could the Creator of the universe know? Because He is the Creator!
 
That's pretty much Arminianism.......? You're saying that God chooses those he know will choose him, giving man a part in his own salvation.......?

I don't necessarily like to put labels on other's/my beliefs because it makes it easy to dismiss or accept what another believes simply based on the label we put on it, rather than hear the person out.

You can come to this conclusions without ever reading the Armenian standpoint. The Bible is littered with statements that indicate our free will. God started out man's existence with the two trees in the garden. He told them not to eat from one of the trees, yet never stopped them when they chose to.

The inevitable result of thinking that we have no free-choice, and are only predestined by God to do exactly what He had planned, is to accuse God of being tempted by evil.

If everything in our life was predestined by God, then you would have to attribute the evil a person commits to God. This is blasphemy!

James 1:13-15(NASB)(emphasis mine)
13Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
15Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
These are questions I would ask, which I am sure many others have asked is:

1. How can Love exist without free will?
2. How can we co-reign with Christ and not have free-will?
3. How can one truly reign at all without free will?
4. What does it mean to be made in the image of God, and what role does free-will have in this?
5. Does God really need to control everything in order to be secure?
6. How do you have a relationship without free-will?
7. Is it impossible for God to be able to both foreknow and predestine just because we think it is impossible?
8. Does God need to conform to our understanding of Biblical concepts or to His?
9. Do humans try to hold God to their understanding of the Bible?
10. Does God look a lot like the God humans can wrap their mind around, or does He look like God?
 
I think that the existence of free will and predestination side by side is an aspect of an omniscient and omnipotent God that we cannot put together. I live my life in assurance because of predestination and search for righteousness because of free will. Beyond that it seems impossible to understand, at least in this world.
 
If everything in our life was predestined by God, then you would have to attribute the evil a person commits to God. This is blasphemy!

Not everything in your life is predestinated, but salvation is, because you either belong to God, you are one of His sheep or you are not one of His sheep.


"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds be reproved, But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought by God." John 3:20-21.

"It is written in the prophets, "And they shall all be taught by God." Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." John 6:45

It's quite simple. every man is taught by God and hath learned of the Father and any man that is taught by the Father comes to Jesus Christ, no exceptions, and we know that only the Father can draw a man to Jesus Christ, and once drawn Christ loses none, so if you do not have Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour then you havn't been taught by God. Because it says all that are taught by the Father come to Jesus Christ.


1. How can Love exist without free will?

God is love.

2. How can we co-reign with Christ and not have free-will?

We don't reign at the moment, we are heirs to the promise.

3. How can one truly reign at all without free will?

Our will is limited at the moment, I don't think we can imagine what eternity will be like.


4. What does it mean to be made in the image of God, and what role does free-will have in this?

We are made in the image of God, but Adam and Eve lost their first estate, and we inherited their fallen status, and all the curses that went along with that.

5. Does God really need to control everything in order to be secure?

He does control everything, nothing can exist without Him, this would be correcty; for something to be secure it must be controlled by God.

6. How do you have a relationship without free-will?

A relationship with God, is not our choice, Jesus Christ says, it He that chooses us, not that we choose Him, I still have the same amount of limited free will, whichever way, I can choose to put suger in my coffee, but I cannot choose to save myself.

7. Is it impossible for God to be able to both foreknow and predestine just because we think it is impossible?

Bible is the word on this, it appears as salvation is predestinated and God chooses when to elect and sanctify.

8. Does God need to conform to our understanding of Biblical concepts or to His?

It just whats written, scripture is the final word.

9. Do humans try to hold God to their understanding of the Bible?
10. Does God look a lot like the God humans can wrap their mind around, or does He look like God?

No one has seen God, last time God spoke from on high He said "Hear Ye Him", listen to Jesus Christ, isn't that enough, I mean He gave His life, A divine sinless Son of God comes down to this rotten sinful earth and gets abused, tortured and crucified on a cross, is that not enough? Is His holy blood, given freely for all sin, not enough? Like how much do people want? Is their something more people would like thrown into the deal? Eternal life, the resurrection, forgiveness of all sin, and there is nothing required but the faith of a child, just a simple belief of the heart and a few words of confession, and that's all....And that's not enough, people want to reject, God, reject the only begotten Son of the Lord of the Universe, saves all of mankind defeats all the devils and Satan himself, conquers death and the grave, and that's not enough, people want some more free-will, some more independence from God? Well no thanks, not me, I've seen where independence and all the free will and the world gets you, and i dont want it, Im gonna listen to Jesus Christ just like the Lord said, and I don't need any free will for that because the lord Jesus has bought me anyway, and did not do a single thing, nothing, I had nothing to offer and still dont, no will on my part whatsoever, all the Lord's work, Praise the Lord for that, Amen.
 
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1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.

Joshua 24
14 “Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD!
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
16 So the people answered and said: “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;
17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way that we went and among all the people through whom we passed.
18 And the LORD drove out from before us all the people, including the Amorites who dwelt in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.”
19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good.”
21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD!”
22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him.”

What "you have chosen the LORD for yourselves"?????????????????????????


If Scripture does not agree with your theology, something is wrong with your theology.. NOT the Scripture.
 
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1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this willingly, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.

Dear me, "For if I do this willingly", OK notice the 'if', remember that, then 'I have a reward', you know that there are rewards and punishments, OK, so your saved, but do you want to be last in the kingdom? Paul is speaking as a saved man, he is been sent on a mission by Christ, the risen Christ saved Paul, Paul didn't do anything before then except sin, Christ saved Him, all God's work. So Paul says, and I mean go back; "For though I prech the Gospel, I have nothing to glory of; for necessity is laid upon me, yea woe is me,if I do not preach the gospel!" And then what is the reward? Well it's not Paul's salvation, he already saved, with the necessity laid upon him by God, so he says "I have been entrusted", been given the responsibilty, stewardship has been given to him, by whom? by God, who elects, sanctifies, saves, God does all that with foreknowledge...

Joshua 24
14 “Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD!
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
16 So the people answered and said: “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;
17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, who did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way that we went and among all the people through whom we passed.
18 And the LORD drove out from before us all the people, including the Amorites who dwelt in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.”
19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. 20 If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good.”
21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD!”
22 So Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him.”

What "you have chosen the LORD for yourselves"?????????????????????????


If Scripture does not agree with your theology, something is wrong with your theology.. NOT the Scripture.

Nothing to do with salvation, all of Israel was saved, God cannot cast off His own seed, His people, so who are you going to choose knowing that, who will you serve, there are rewards and punishments, does not mean your not saved, salvation is predestinated by God, its decided from before you are born, your either His seed, and His sheep or your not.
 
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If Scripture does not agree with your theology, something is wrong with your theology.. NOT the Scripture.

Very good point.

I can reconcile neither calvinism nor arminianism with the bible and my understanding of God. I can't believe in either at this stage.


My attention has now turned to God's reason for creating the world. I'm struggling to understand why God created the world. I know it was for his own purposes and for us to give him pleasure. But why, knowing that some would end up in hell, did God create the world? Was this something God was willing to accept for the benefit of the experience of receiving the love we have for him of our own free will?
 
Very good point.

I can reconcile neither calvinism nor arminianism with the bible and my understanding of God. I can't believe in either at this stage.


My attention has now turned to God's reason for creating the world. I'm struggling to understand why God created the world. I know it was for his own purposes and for us to give him pleasure. But why, knowing that some would end up in hell, did God create the world? Was this something God was willing to accept for the benefit of the experience of receiving the love we have for him of our own free will?

It is true that God always knew how history would play out. The conclusion of the book of Job is that God makes his own rules and is answerable to no one.

It is like God is the author of a book. And we are the characters. It is inevitable that we will behave in a certain way.

The surprise is not that God saves some but that God even saves any.

If we built a bunch of robots and they malfunctioned we would trash them and start again.
 
Very good point.

I can reconcile neither calvinism nor arminianism with the bible and my understanding of God. I can't believe in either at this stage.

They both have their limitations and limit God.

Also, their fruits are equally bad. I have seen examples of people in both camps anding up in the same lost state.

One Wesleyan girl thought she had sinned once too often and got tired of losing her salvation.

One Presbyterian guy decided that because he sins he was never one of the elect.

Both gave up any hope of having a relationship with God.
 
I didn't ask to be created. No-one did. From my point of view, there is no way that I couldn't be a sinner, because everyone is a sinner. Even though the sins of the whole of mankind collectively put Jesus on the cross, did I really have a choice as to whether I was a sinner? Is there anyone in the world who hasn't sinned?

God knew about the choices everyone would make before He created the world. He knew some would believe, and that others would rebel and spend eternity in hell. He didn't make these decisions for us, but he knew what each person would do. Yet he made the world anyway. How can I not sympathise with a person who never asked to be created, never asked Jesus to die for them, and spends eternity in hell, all of which God knew would happen? Yes they made the wrong choices in their life, but God knew they would.

To me its a bit like waking someone up when they're in a deep sleep, telling them they need a coffee to wake up fully, giving them a coffee, and then asking them to thank you for giving them a coffee. All the while they're thinking, well, I'd rather you never woke me up in the first place...

The bible says it would have been better for Judas if he was never born. I'm sure Judas would agree.