Grace and Law are married....

[prove-all]

I know. . .the belly aching gives away the cultural heritage.

No one makes anyone do this, they choose to do it.

They can end their misery, if they really want to do so.

first off i would like to say sorry to Scuba for this to be on his post.

and anyone that got involved.

to Elin my cultural heritage has nothing to do with my complant.

it was about me not answering you, and saying i was being deceptive.

and someone asks you a question you throw it back at them. in defence.

i have been childish but i say you where at fault too.

i apolagized for it but you reply again

and again you do it in a demeaning manner.

where i should put an end to my misery.

and anyone who liked youre post for doing so i though was wrong.


and my lack of spelling is from not finishing school and serving my country instead.

not because i came to america illegal

 

[crossnote]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

:1 Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? 2 For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. 3 So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.


7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Let it not be so. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: 8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. 9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; 10 and the commandment, which was unto life, this I found to be unto death: 11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

< Rom 7

The Law makes sin exceedingly sinful (Romans 7:13). It doesn't say the Law makes sin sin, it says it makes sin exceedingly sinful and sin brings guilt and condemnation upon sinners. Are you a sinner? Yes! Will you ever cease to struggle with sin in this life? No! (Romans 7:24) Unless you reckon yourself dead the Law (Romans 6:11) you will never experience new life to serve God through Christ. This is not saying the Law is sin nor is it saying the Law is done away with (Romans 7:22). As a matter of fact, it says the Law is good (Romans 7:12-13). Those in Christ love the Law because it reveals the character of God but with the same heart of love for the Law we understand we are not perfect and are always in the struggle with the flesh. The outward man will always be at odds with the Law while the inward man delights in the Law. It surely is a battle but that battle has been won by Christ so, though the outward man struggles with the Law, we know the victory at the end of the story for those who are in Christ.

So what does the whole Bible say regarding the Law? Does it say God is going to do away with it or does it say God is going to write it on our hearts and minds? The Bible says God will write His Law on our hearts and minds so that means He is not doing away with it so you should never interpret the verses to say He is doing away with it.

So then, Atwood's post is unmoved by further exposition of Rom 7..
My question is every time we post a scripture or two do we have to do an exposition also on the whole chapter?
I agree it should not be used out of context of the post responded to but I also disagree that the quote from Rom 7:1-11 needed further context.

 

[Atwood]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

The Lord says:

1 Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? 2 For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. 3 So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.


7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Let it not be so. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: 8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. 9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; 10 and the commandment, whichwas unto life, this I found to be unto death: 11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.

You must read the whole chapter, in light of the whole Bible, in order to get the flavor of what Paul is saying. Without using the whole Bible to interpret the Bible you could use the Bible to prove there is no God.

I have read the Bible through over & over times beyond counting Scuba. How many times have you read it through? I wrote a 1000 page book covering every passage in the Bible on sarx (flesh), one of which is Romans 7. When I did that, I read just about everything serious anyone in the USA or the UK could read on the subject.
I also covered background literature including secular Greek and intertestamental literature, like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Also, I searched the Church fathers for their opinions.

I quoted it long enough. Anyone who wants more context can read the whole book of Romans or the whole Bible -- I don't need to post a longer passage than I did.

It says what it says. Believe it or deny it at your own peril.

 

[Scuba]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

So then, Atwood's post is unmoved by further exposition of Rom 7..
My question is every time we post a scripture or two do we have to do an exposition also on the whole chapter?
I agree it should not be used out of context of the post responded to but I also disagree that the quote from Rom 7:1-11 needed further context.

The works of Paul are hard to understand. When you read his writings they start to lead you to believe a certain way but then they take a turn and begin to lead you to believe a different way and then they bring you back around to believe something else. That's why it's important to use the bible to interpret the verses and not use the verses to interpret the bible. God has a big picture plan that everything must fit into. Of what we're believing contradicts God's big picture plan then we need to restudy.

 

[crossnote]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

The works of Paul are hard to understand. When you read his writings they start to lead you to believe a certain way but then they take a turn and begin to lead you to believe a different way and then they bring you back around to believe something else. That's why it's important to use the bible to interpret the verses and not use the verses to interpret the bible. God has a big picture plan that everything must fit into. Of what we're believing contradicts God's big picture plan then we need to restudy.

I'm sure we are all aware of that rule of interpretation Scuba...context, context, context; and although not as extensive as Atwood, Romans has been my specialty when compared to other books of the bible. BTW, I find Paul rather straightforward thus easier than most to understand.

 

[psychomom]

Grace and Law married?

okay, let's preach the Law. full throat.
Jesus summed it up saying "Be perfect, just like God."
okay? PERFECT.
no qualifications, not, well, i try...or, i do my best.
PERFECT. full stop.

how's that working out for you?

why do we spend so much time talking about the Law when the Lord Jesus fully lived it?
for us.
because we couldn't do it, and we can not do it.
the biggest problem in the Church isn't cheap Grace, it's cheap Law!
we dumb down the Standard of absolute perfection to a place we feel like we can do it!

to the extent we ignore the righteous standard of absolute perfection,
we don't feel our desperation, and thus never feel our Deliverance.
so, yeah, preach Law. full throat. and feel that desperation.
and then hear that sweet voice of the Gospel.
Jesus paid it all.

then maybe we can finally talk about the Deliverer. the Redeemer.
the ONLY Law Keeper. ♥

 

[Elin]

Grace and Law married?

okay, let's preach the Law. full throat.
Jesus summed it up saying "Be perfect, just like God."
okay? PERFECT.
no qualifications, not, well, i try...or, i do my best.
PERFECT. full stop.

how's that working out for you?

why do we spend so much time talking about the Law when the Lord Jesus fully lived it?
for us.
because we couldn't do it, and we can not do it.
the biggest problem in the Church isn't cheap Grace, it's cheap Law!
we dumb down the Standard of absolute perfection to a place we feel like we can do it!

to the extent we ignore the righteous standard of absolute perfection,
we don't feel our desperation, and thus never feel our Deliverance.
so, yeah, preach Law. full throat. and feel that desperation.
and then hear that sweet voice of the Gospel.
Jesus paid it all.

then maybe we can finally talk about the Deliverer. the Redeemer.
the ONLY Law Keeper. ♥

And all the saints said, "AMEN!"

 

[Scuba]

Grace and Law married?

okay, let's preach the Law. full throat.
Jesus summed it up saying "Be perfect, just like God."
okay? PERFECT.
no qualifications, not, well, i try...or, i do my best.
PERFECT. full stop.

how's that working out for you?

why do we spend so much time talking about the Law when the Lord Jesus fully lived it?
for us.
because we couldn't do it, and we can not do it.
the biggest problem in the Church isn't cheap Grace, it's cheap Law!
we dumb down the Standard of absolute perfection to a place we feel like we can do it!

to the extent we ignore the righteous standard of absolute perfection,
we don't feel our desperation, and thus never feel our Deliverance.
so, yeah, preach Law. full throat. and feel that desperation.
and then hear that sweet voice of the Gospel.
Jesus paid it all.

then maybe we can finally talk about the Deliverer. the Redeemer.
the ONLY Law Keeper. ♥

The Law is a big part of God's plan to have a people He can call His own. Do away with the Law and you do away with the means by which God defines His holy people. Just because my perfection is found in Christ does not mean the Law has no value in the lives of God's people. I believe the Bible makes that very plain and clear.

 

[prove-all]

Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



someone has to preach his words

 

[Scuba]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

The Lord says:

1 Or are ye ignorant, brethren (for I speak to men who know the law), that the law hath dominion over a man for so long time as he liveth? 2 For the woman that hath a husband is bound by law to the husband while he liveth; but if the husband die, she is discharged from the law of the husband. 3 So then if, while the husband liveth, she be joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband die, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she be joined to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.


7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Let it not be so. Howbeit, I had not known sin, except through the law: for I had not known coveting, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet: 8 but sin, finding occasion, wrought in me through the commandment all manner of coveting: for apart from the law sin is dead. 9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; 10 and the commandment, whichwas unto life, this I found to be unto death: 11 for sin, finding occasion, through the commandment beguiled me, and through it slew me.



I have read the Bible through over & over times beyond counting Scuba. How many times have you read it through? I wrote a 1000 page book covering every passage in the Bible on sarx (flesh), one of which is Romans 7. When I did that, I read just about everything serious anyone in the USA or the UK could read on the subject.
I also covered background literature including secular Greek and intertestamental literature, like the Dead Sea Scrolls. Also, I searched the Church fathers for their opinions.

I quoted it long enough. Anyone who wants more context can read the whole book of Romans or the whole Bible -- I don't need to post a longer passage than I did.

It says what it says. Believe it or deny it at your own peril.

The Pharisees and Scribes missed the first coming of Jesus so it's not a matter of knowing the Bible, as much as it is, understanding the Bible. Tell me, in you're current belief system do you believe it's okay to murder, lie, steal, sleep around, worship other gods, use God's name in vain, dishonor our parents and so on?

 

[Scuba]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

I'm sure we are all aware of that rule of interpretation Scuba...context, context, context; and although not as extensive as Atwood, Romans has been my specialty when compared to other books of the bible. BTW, I find Paul rather straightforward thus easier than most to understand.

What sayeth thou?

Romans 6:14-15 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

 

[prove-all]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers,
disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce,
despisers of those that are good,

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 

[psychomom]

The Law is a big part of God's plan to have a people He can call His own. Do away with the Law and you do away with the means by which God defines His holy people. Just because my perfection is found in Christ does not mean the Law has no value in the lives of God's people. I believe the Bible makes that very plain and clear.

did i say do away with God's Law?

 

[Scuba]

did i say do away with God's Law?

I don't know, did you?

 

[psychomom]

Grace and Law married?

okay, let's preach the Law. full throat.
Jesus summed it up saying "Be perfect, just like God."
okay? PERFECT.
no qualifications, not, well, i try...or, i do my best.
PERFECT. full stop.

how's that working out for you?

why do we spend so much time talking about the Law when the Lord Jesus fully lived it?
for us.
because we couldn't do it, and we can not do it.
the biggest problem in the Church isn't cheap Grace, it's cheap Law!
we dumb down the Standard of absolute perfection to a place we feel like we can do it!

to the extent we ignore the righteous standard of absolute perfection,
we don't feel our desperation, and thus never feel our Deliverance.
so, yeah, preach Law. full throat. and feel that desperation.
and then hear that sweet voice of the Gospel.
Jesus paid it all.

then maybe we can finally talk about the Deliverer. the Redeemer.
the ONLY Law Keeper. ♥

I don't know, did you?

does that help?

Let's go ahead and preach Law, but don't lower the demand to where we think we're getting it done.

 

[Scuba]

does that help?

Let's go ahead and preach Law, but don't lower the demand to where we think we're getting it done.

Oh now I get it. Thanks for the clarification...

 

[prove-all]

[talk about the Deliverer. the Redeemer the ONLY Law Keeper. ♥]

24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes,

and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


For this is the covenant that I will make with
the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;

I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.


For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before
for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.


Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,​

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into
the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:​

 

[fredjames]

Re: Grace and Law are married or Divorced? or Dead to the First Husband (Law)?

So how would the whole context of chap 7 'flavor' what Atwood quoted from v.4 viz. 'we are dead to the law and alive to Christ'?
Obviously we can't quote the whole bible every time we post a verse.

So, we are dead to the Law and alive to CHRIST and so now we don't have a Law for guidance anymore? That is why this proves we have a lot of denomination, traditions and doctrine of men and we are so divided and never in 'oneness'. This shows we are still babes in CHRIST, even in practices to the New Covenant and living to the necessities and pleasure of this world and our fruit never ripen.

 

[crossnote]

Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



someone has to preach his words

Take care that you do not neglect the Levite as long as you live in your land.
(Deu 12:19)
Well here are just a few of the commandments that attend your admonition in Deuteronomy...

But when you go over the Jordan and live in the land that the LORD your God is giving you to inherit, and when he gives you rest from all your enemies around, so that you live in safety, then to the place that the LORD your God will choose, to make his name dwell there, there you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings and your sacrifices, your tithes and the contribution that you present, and all your finest vow offerings that you vow to the LORD. And you shall rejoice before the LORD your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male servants and your female servants, and the Levite that is within your towns, since he has no portion or inheritance with you. Take care that you do not offer your burnt offerings at any place that you see, but at the place that the LORD will choose in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I am commanding you. "However, you may slaughter and eat meat within any of your towns, as much as you desire, according to the blessing of the LORD your God that he has given you. The unclean and the clean may eat of it, as of the gazelle and as of the deer. Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it out on the earth like water. You may not eat within your towns the tithe of your grain or of your wine or of your oil, or the firstborn of your herd or of your flock, or any of your vow offerings that you vow, or your freewill offerings or the contribution that you present, but you shall eat them before the LORD your God in the place that the LORD your God will choose, you and your son and your daughter, your male servant and your female servant, and the Levite who is within your towns. And you shall rejoice before the LORD your God in all that you undertake.
(Deu 12:10-18)

Getting to the Jordan, offering a burnt offering, and bringing your servants may prove to be a problem...are you sure we are under that law?

 

[prove-all]

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments,
and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.​