How did the angels sin if there is no sin in heaven? / Is their free will in heaven?

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The Angels had free will; the ability to do what was right or what was wrong. Some chose God, others did not. So, why do they not have a "second chance"?

This is something a little difficult to grasp, but it is crucial to understanding this idea: Humans are also created with free will. We also, unlike the angels, live in time. When I do something now, I have not done it before and I am not doing it later. This notion of past, present, and future depends on us living on a timeline. I can sin today and repent tomorrow. For the angels, there is no today or tomorrow: everything for them is now. The angels dwell with God, who is limitless (time is a limitation). When the rebel angels sinned, it was a one-time decision that could not be undone. They live in timelessness. There is no redemption for them, their rebellion is eternal.

So, is there free will in heaven? A prayer that my professor likes to say references that we were born "in sin and in ignorance." Not only are we sinful, we are too ignorant to always know how sinful we are. We act on motivations that seem good at the time, but in retrospect, we bad mistakes. To be free from igorance is to be free from sin. In order to be free from ignorance, we must be in a state that we know everything that can be known. So far, this is the privilage only of God. He knows all that is to be known, is truly free from ignorance, and is truly unable to sin...which is also an affect of him being truly all Goodness. The angels are in heaven with him, and because they dwell with Truth itself (God), the can no longer sin. They simply do not have the desires which lead us into sin.

It's a very complicated thing to think of, no doubt. I guess our ability to sin is also our great ability to repent and be forgiven. We could speak of that great Felix Culpa another time.
 
I think there is another factor. We are creatures of mixed nature. Even the unredeemed have good in them and even the redeemed wrestle with the old sinful nature. Angels do not appear to have that mixture. Perhaps we are uniquely capable of repentence.
 
Wow sauso you really know your stuff... I was just coming in to say I can't make my post tonight because of household drama but I haven't forgotten.

I'm just going to say this though for you guys to mill around on.

Lucifer rebelled because God made him to rebel. All of this is part of Gods plan, all of it. Soaso was right about the linier thing but angels do not have true free will, they have no destiny, each one was created as it was, is, and will be. The exception os of course is when God cast them to earth, dethroned lucifer and made him prince of the earth. He along with the other fallen were changed, twisted into beautiful mockeries o
 
suaso said:
The Angels had free will; the ability to do what was right or what was wrong. Some chose God, others did not. So, why do they not have a "second chance"?

This is something a little difficult to grasp, but it is crucial to understanding this idea: Humans are also created with free will. We also, unlike the angels, live in time. When I do something now, I have not done it before and I am not doing it later. This notion of past, present, and future depends on us living on a timeline. I can sin today and repent tomorrow. For the angels, there is no today or tomorrow: everything for them is now. The angels dwell with God, who is limitless (time is a limitation). When the rebel angels sinned, it was a one-time decision that could not be undone. They live in timelessness. There is no redemption for them, their rebellion is eternal.

So, is there free will in heaven? A prayer that my professor likes to say references that we were born "in sin and in ignorance." Not only are we sinful, we are too ignorant to always know how sinful we are. We act on motivations that seem good at the time, but in retrospect, we bad mistakes. To be free from igorance is to be free from sin. In order to be free from ignorance, we must be in a state that we know everything that can be known. So far, this is the privilage only of God. He knows all that is to be known, is truly free from ignorance, and is truly unable to sin...which is also an affect of him being truly all Goodness. The angels are in heaven with him, and because they dwell with Truth itself (God), the can no longer sin. They simply do not have the desires which lead us into sin.

It's a very complicated thing to think of, no doubt. I guess our ability to sin is also our great ability to repent and be forgiven. We could speak of that great Felix Culpa another time.
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Thanks Suaso - really good answer.

One thing I want to ask you though - if there is no time in heaven, what do you think of Revelation 8:1.
 
Liam said:
Wow sauso you really know your stuff... I was just coming in to say I can't make my post tonight because of household drama but I haven't forgotten.

I'm just going to say this though for you guys to mill around on.

Lucifer rebelled because God made him to rebel. All of this is part of Gods plan, all of it. Soaso was right about the linier thing but angels do not have true free will, they have no destiny, each one was created as it was, is, and will be. The exception os of course is when God cast them to earth, dethroned lucifer and made him prince of the earth. He along with the other fallen were changed, twisted into beautiful mockeries o
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Rebellion = sin. God cannot be the author of sin.
 
Liam said:
Wow sauso you really know your stuff... I was just coming in to say I can't make my post tonight because of household drama but I haven't forgotten.

I'm just going to say this though for you guys to mill around on.

Lucifer rebelled because God made him to rebel. All of this is part of Gods plan, all of it. Soaso was right about the linier thing but angels do not have true free will, they have no destiny, each one was created as it was, is, and will be. The exception os of course is when God cast them to earth, dethroned lucifer and made him prince of the earth. He along with the other fallen were changed, twisted into beautiful mockeries o
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Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
ouden oo-den'
From G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: - any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.
Kool topic folx,
But lets use some common sense.
 
Sharp said:
Thanks Suaso - really good answer.

One thing I want to ask you though - if there is no time in heaven, what do you think of Revelation 8:1.
Click to expand...

Thank you, and Liam as well. I had the Abbot for one of my theology courses and he had us read On Grace and Free Choice by Bernard of Clairvaux, which is where I remember some of this from (and his lectures). It's a great read for any who are interested.

Hmm...let's see: "When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour (Rev. 8:1)."

It is my understanding that the events of Revelation were a sort of vision given to John. Much more than a dream, something where he was conscious of the passage of time. So, when heaven was silent for half an hour, perhaps this time was a period of silence experienced by him on earth where silence prevailed during this portion of the vision. Then again, the half-hour silence could be some sort of figurative speech to indicate the preparation of heaven for what was about to be unleashed upon the earth.
 
NoahsDad said:
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
ouden oo-den'
From G3761 and G1520; not even one (man, woman or thing), that is, none, nobody, nothing: - any (man), aught, man, neither any (thing), never (man), no (man), none (+ of these things), not (any, at all, -thing), nought.
Kool topic folx,
But lets use some common sense.
Click to expand...

Lucifer is no diffrent then the plagues, he may be more complicated but it's the same thing. He is a moral example for us to learn by, the champion of tge entropic path, an example of the folly of walking a path in defiance of the Lords will. We can take this lesson and pitty the devil but to blame him for his evil. I mean... I don't think that's the point... Didn't someone once mention something about letting God be the final judge on these matters?

Read Job, do you see an antagonistic relationship between the lord and his enemy?

I think common sense can't hold a candle to the light of truth that is delivered to us through the spirit to those who are wise enough to presume themselves fools and seek understanding in Him.

Sauso--that's great, I've been heavily involved in... Wait, what's his name? Has he ever been to Boston, has he heard of Johnathon Gray? That's my my little alias for when I do god research or plan to read things people didn't want me too. ;)
 
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Not long ago I believed heaven was a clear conscience, and that we didn’t go to heaven or hell when we died, but to the Resurrection.

I am not so sure now that that is true, and I know there are people on this website who do not think it is true. Still, it would answer a lot of questions, I think.
 
Sharp said:
Various pasages in the bible point to heaven as a sinless place.
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There is a fundamental issue with the assumptions of your original post.

Job is the oldest book in the Bible. There it describes Satan as appearing before God from time to time to throw down a challenge and to accuse believers.
 
greatkraw said:
There is a fundamental issue with the assumptions of your original post.

Job is the oldest book in the Bible. There it describes Satan as appearing before God from time to time to throw down a challenge and to accuse believers.
Click to expand...

Would you believe that just as I posted that the preacher I was listening to started discussing this passage.
 
greatkraw said:
There is a fundamental issue with the assumptions of your original post.

Job is the oldest book in the Bible. There it describes Satan as appearing before God from time to time to throw down a challenge and to accuse believers.
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And if He didn't allow Him to do so, then how did he do it? Would you presume even the highest of tge choir to be able to turn aside the wrath of the great I am? -shakes his head- even tge morning star, highest of the Elohim is as to nothing compared to the creator.

Do you really beleive he would allow him to exist in his presence when he cannot stand the sight of evil (sin)?
Would he let him tempt his son?

what does that tell you?
God has his plan, he has won, and ole Lucifer as he is now known is an unwitting tool in the salvation of our immortal souls--such is the power and magesry of the One True God that even his enemies serve him.
 
He isn't the author of son my friend. He DEFINES sin. Remember he created us and we sinned, he gave us that compassity, he designed lucifer to serve as a tester, a tempter, He created him to help us rise above these things and as fir a way to personify the evils tgat threaten our salvation in Christ. God does not commit sin, but he understands tge nature of sin and it's concequences better than anyone.

Know thy enemy. :)
 
God made every man to himself... just because of the title do you think differently? your LORDSHIP?
 
His character and attributes define sin. We think of this from our limited capacity. How do we even approach understanding some things. How does an omniscient God relate to free will? I'm not sure we can even scratch the surface.
 
Freedom is the ability to choose what is good. God is all knowing and always knows what is good. He has the freest of wills.
 
I should have said how does God relate to our good will. Sorry.
 
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