King James authorized bible vs the rest of other bibles

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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
This makes it so much more difficult for some to say that the messianic prophecies about Christ in the Book of Isaiah were written after Christ was on earth.
This is a ludicrous claim, regardless Dead Sea scrolls. The Jewish texts have been painfully preserved, by stringent rules of accuracy, even ceremonial reverence scribes must adhere to, since when. To say there would not have been Jewish scholars a plenty to dispute any text changes at any point in time would be an understatement, this true of all Old Testament text.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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This is a ludicrous claim, regardless Dead Sea scrolls. The Jewish texts have been painfully preserved, by stringent rules of accuracy, even ceremonial reverence scribes must adhere to, since when. To say there would not have been Jewish scholars a plenty to dispute any text changes at any point in time would be an understatement, this true of all Old Testament text.
What is the oldest extant Hebrew manuscript of the Old Testament other than what was discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls?
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
What is the oldest extant Hebrew manuscript of the Old Testament other than what was discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls?
You know, sorry, I can't remember, just that BC manuscripts have, otherwise, been mainly fragments. It's just that manuscripts were so carefully duplicated by hand, character by character, to be exact (very important in Judaism the text, not one letter of it, be carried over wrong), that the idea of whole passages being added to the text is beyond the pale. A text may be newer than Christ, but it was in a custody chain of exacting duplication which, also, Jews would not have added Jesus Christ to, for goodness sake!
 
Jun 5, 2014
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the idea of whole passages being added to the text is beyond the pale.
But that is exactly what has happened in some instances.

When you have humans doing the copying, errors are going to be made. When you have humans doing the translation, human bias and other factors enter into the equation.

If that didn't happen, we wouldn't be having these discussions about one Bible being superior to others.

That being said, none of it changes the statement Nick01 made in post #830:

"And again, it doesn't matter what MSS you pick up, there is nothing in them that puts into doubt the attestation of the NT to the death and resurrection of Jesus."

My point about the Great Isaiah Scroll found among the Dead Sea Scrolls is this:

It is virtually identical (several minor editorial issues) to what we already had in the Masoretic Text. The oldest Masoretic Text of the Book of Isaiah is dated to 800 to 900 years AFTER Christ. I'm talking about taking the manuscripts we have and dating the document itself by scientific testing. There are earlier Greek Septuagint manuscripts of Isaiah, but all are dated AFTER Christ was on earth.

There are numerous messianic prophecies in Isaiah about Jesus, correct? They all came to be, correct?

The Great Isaiah Scroll found among the Dead Sea Scrolls is dated to several hundred years BEFORE Jesus was on earth.

That seems like it might be real important to me.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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what is the majority text nowadays? back in the eighties when I was learning Greek it was nestle... changed since then?
Nestle-Aland has NEVER been the Majority Text. The Majority Text means something very specific - that reconstructed text based on which readings are attested to by the majority of Greek manuscripts, whatever their age or type. Now, it's not always possible to have a 'majority' reading, and so most texts that purport to be a reconstruction of the Majority Text usually contain a couple of minority readings that have to be arrived at by means other than simply totalling up the manuscript support for each reading, but there is a pretty clear 'Majority Text' that emerges from this process, as distinct from the Critical Texts and, to a lesser although still significant extent, the Textus Receptus.

The Nestle-Aland text is what is known as a 'critical text', because it attempts to find, in so far as is possible, the earliest readings at every point in the text. Every individual reading is examined in light of the external evidence (which manuscripts a given reading appears in, the age of those MSS, comparison to other MSS with similar and different readings) as well as internal evidence (trying to discern the reasons for changes in the text - are the reasons theological? liturgical? typographical? visual? Are they deliberate, or accidental?).

The majority of textual scholars would hold to something like the NA text (perhaps with some caveats here and there, but based on agreement that the underlying methodology is sound), as do the majority of seminarians, pastors, bible translators, etc, so I suppose in that sense it is a 'majority' text. But so we're clear, that is NOT the sense in which I talk of a Majority Text.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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Yes, certainly the Masoretic Text and LXX are dated earlier than Christ by convincing evidence, in terms of when they were written. But only a few fragments of the LXX, which are of the Torah, can be dated by examining the document itself to be written prior to Christ on earth.

The Great Isaiah Scroll found among the Dead Sea Scrolls is dated by examining the document itself to have been written a couple hundred years before Christ.

This makes it so much more difficult for some to say that the messianic prophecies about Christ in the Book of Isaiah were written after Christ was on earth.

The point being it's much easier to predict the future if you do it after the events in question have occurred.
Sure, but I have not heard anyone seriously suggest the prophecies the NT bases its case on are late additions to the original OT texts. Whether we have those specific fragments in the texts or not, the other external evidence for the prophecies in the LXX and Masoretic text is so strong (external quotations, the general conformity of the extant OT text - albeit with greater textual problems than the NT - etc) it's more or less beyond question.

Anyway, I think we're drifting a little off topic. Thanks for the insight, though.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I don't think me explaining things further is going to help anyone. My short answer for everyone here is to have faith. Faith in God's Word. For faith comes from hearing God's Word (Romans 10:17). You either believe God's Word or you don't. It's that simple. The Bible is His revelation to man. I believe that revelation without fail. Every word of it. Do you?

Or is it just your own interpretation of the Greek that differs with everybody else?
Do you speak and write Biblical Greek fluently? What if Paul showed up and decided to check your Greek?
Don't you think you be bound to make mistakes?
To say that you wouldn't would be ignorance.
I tried studying Portuguese from books, CD's, and a website.
What do you think happened when I tried to speak to my fiance?
She corrected me at times.
 
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Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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I don't think me explaining things further is going to help anyone. My short answer for everyone here is to have faith. Faith in God's Word. For faith comes from hearing God's Word (Romans 10:17). You either believe God's Word or you don't. It's that simple. The Bible is His revelation to man. I believe that revelation without fail. Every word of it. Do you?

Or is it just your own interpretation of the Greek that differs with everybody else?
Do you speak and write Biblical Greek fluently? What if Paul showed up and decided to check your Greek?
Don't you think you be bound to make mistakes?
To say that you wouldn't would be ignorance.
I tried studying Portuguese from books, CD's, and a website.
What do you think happened when I tried to speak to my fiance?
She corrected me at times.

I'm curious, Jason - if you think Greek is and has long been a dead language, what makes you think the likes of Erasmus got it perfectly right, if not one else today can? You believe the language has been lost that much in only 400 years?
 
I

IAm3rd

Guest
King James Authorized... ( authorized by who ? )

and which KJV are we talking about ? The original 1611 which had 7 more books than the modern KJV ?
Let's be specific...
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Whether you are an atheist or a Bible agnostic, if you simplly except the Word of God, then it will open your eyes to the truth. Truth about God, His Word, His love for you and all of mankind. It's really simple. Believe in God's Word. Hey, but if you don't believe, then that is your choice. I choose to believe in God's Word by faith. One day folks here will have to realize that. It's all about faith. For atheism takes faith. Being convinced by Bible seminaries that you can't trust the Bible 100% takes faith. But these faiths are the wrong kind of faiths. You need the right kind of faith. A faith in God's Word. Once you take that step. Everything will be clear. You know. Sort of like when Indiana Jones had stepped off that cliff and found himself on an invisible bridge in the Last Crusade. It takes faith. So take that first step. What is holding you back? For the journey with God and His Word is an amazing one. He will lead you into all truth and give you a peace, love, and joy like you have never known before.
 
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Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting they don't believe in God's word.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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This is a ludicrous claim, regardless Dead Sea scrolls. The Jewish texts have been painfully preserved, by stringent rules of accuracy, even ceremonial reverence scribes must adhere to, since when. To say there would not have been Jewish scholars a plenty to dispute any text changes at any point in time would be an understatement, this true of all Old Testament text.
that reminds me of an interesting situation... the nt quotes lxx more often than it quotes from Hebrew... so I've heard... lxx sometimes differs from Hebrew we have today...
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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Nestle-Aland has NEVER been the Majority Text. The Majority Text means something very specific - that reconstructed text based on which readings are attested to by the majority of Greek manuscripts, whatever their age or type. Now, it's not always possible to have a 'majority' reading, and so most texts that purport to be a reconstruction of the Majority Text usually contain a couple of minority readings that have to be arrived at by means other than simply totalling up the manuscript support for each reading, but there is a pretty clear 'Majority Text' that emerges from this process, as distinct from the Critical Texts and, to a lesser although still significant extent, the Textus Receptus.

The Nestle-Aland text is what is known as a 'critical text', because it attempts to find, in so far as is possible, the earliest readings at every point in the text. Every individual reading is examined in light of the external evidence (which manuscripts a given reading appears in, the age of those MSS, comparison to other MSS with similar and different readings) as well as internal evidence (trying to discern the reasons for changes in the text - are the reasons theological? liturgical? typographical? visual? Are they deliberate, or accidental?).

The majority of textual scholars would hold to something like the NA text (perhaps with some caveats here and there, but based on agreement that the underlying methodology is sound), as do the majority of seminarians, pastors, bible translators, etc, so I suppose in that sense it is a 'majority' text. But so we're clear, that is NOT the sense in which I talk of a Majority Text.
thanks for the info... if I remember right, the nestle edition I had ranked variant readings according to reliability... meaning whether they thought it was in the original, I think... bible gateway lists 'sbl'... which I'm guessing is a cheaper to use but still good text...
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
I don't think me explaining things further is going to help anyone. My short answer for everyone here is to have faith. Faith in God's Word. For faith comes from hearing God's Word (Romans 10:17). You either believe God's Word or you don't. It's that simple. The Bible is His revelation to man. I believe that revelation without fail. Every word of it. Do you?

Or is it just your own interpretation of the Greek that differs with everybody else?
Do you speak and write Biblical Greek fluently? What if Paul showed up and decided to check your Greek?
Don't you think you be bound to make mistakes?
To say that you wouldn't would be ignorance.
I tried studying Portuguese from books, CD's, and a website.
What do you think happened when I tried to speak to my fiance?
She corrected me at times.
one of the things that led me to question if the bible is word perfect is the KJV... it says that Isaiah says the spirit of the lord is upon me... the kjv Isaiah doesn't say that anywhere... so, I decided to believe that God's word was perfect in some other way...
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
26
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thanks for the info... if I remember right, the nestle edition I had ranked variant readings according to reliability... meaning whether they thought it was in the original, I think... bible gateway lists 'sbl'... which I'm guessing is a cheaper to use but still good text...
The main utility of things like the NA (at least those editions that include a full critical apparatus) is that you can see the variants, the sources they come from, and study the topic yourself and make up your own mind. I'm not entirely sure, but I think the SBL Apparatus might only tell you in relation to other critical texts (including the Pierpoint-Robinson Majority Text). Either way, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter that much - almost every translation will footnote any variants that are either important, or are very viable, information on these variants is a Google away, and precious few of them are of any real importance.
 
Jun 5, 2014
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that reminds me of an interesting situation... the nt quotes lxx more often than it quotes from Hebrew... so I've heard... lxx sometimes differs from Hebrew we have today...
LXX is quoted because the gentile audience spoke principally Koine Greek. Paul et al likely had LXX copies in their hands.

LXX definitely differs from the Hebrew text at times. So does the Latin Vulgate. So does the King James.

I'm not sure what your point is.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Whether you are an atheist or a Bible agnostic, if you simplly except the Word of God, then it will open your eyes to the truth. Truth about God, His Word, His love for you and all of mankind. It's really simple. Believe in God's Word. Hey, but if you don't believe, then that is your choice. I choose to believe in God's Word by faith. One day folks here will have to realize that. It's all about faith. For atheism takes faith. Being convinced by Bible seminaries that you can't trust the Bible 100% takes faith. But these faiths are the wrong kind of faiths. You need the right kind of faith. A faith in God's Word. Once you take that step. Everything will be clear. You know. Sort of like when Indiana Jones had stepped off that cliff and found himself on an invisible bridge in the Last Crusade. It takes faith. So take that first step. What is holding you back? For the journey with God and His Word is an amazing one. He will lead you into all truth and give you a peace, love, and joy like you have never known before.
believe what about God's word, though? The explanation that Jesus was just preaching doesn't work for me... Luke says it was written...
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
LXX is quoted because the gentile audience spoke principally Koine Greek. Paul et al likely had LXX copies in their hands.

LXX definitely differs from the Hebrew text at times. So does the Latin Vulgate. So does the King James.

I'm not sure what your point is.
(an aside... I've heard many Jewish people were into the lxx back then... sounds strange to us today... most Jewish people now are so into the Hebrew...) the lxx has text and translation issues when compared to Hebrew of today... nt quotes it a lot... to me, it says God isn't concerned about exact words, if the meaning is basically there...
 
Jul 22, 2014
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I don't think anyone here is suggesting they don't believe in God's word.
Not entirely they do. They believe it is the holey Bible and not the Holy Bible (That is divine and perfect). However, ALL Scripture (Not the majority of Scripture) is given by inspiration of God and is profitable (2 Timothy 3:16). For when they disciples received the Word, they received it not as the words of men, but as the very words of God (1 Thessalonians 2:13). Bible agnostics do not believe that. An agnostic is someone who says there might be a God. A Bible agnostic says there might be a perfect Word of God but they do not know if such a thing exists or not. They can't be sure. However, if they were to place their faith entirely in God's Word, then will be able to see like in Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade involving that invisible bridge.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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believe what about God's word, though? The explanation that Jesus was just preaching doesn't work for me... Luke says it was written...
God's thoughts are not our thoughts. You can only see, if you say, okay God, I know the Bible is 100% true and without error as your Word clearly states. It's a faith issue and not a head issue. For without faith, it is impossible to please Him. In other words, you need to first believe God's Word, then He will show you the spiritual understanding of it. It can't be the other way around. You can't fold your arms and say, I do not believe your Word is perfect and I need to see proof before I believe. It don't work like that. It didn't work like that when you accepted Jesus. You did not ask for Jesus to show you proof He was the Savior. You just believed Him according to His Word. You took that step of faith and you were able to see. In other words, you first have to believe. Then you will see. It's that simple. Someone who doubts and does not believe will never get it.