Catholic Heresy (for the record)

ThomistColin · Sep 1, 2014

I'm going to respond point by point.
Jesus says to not use vain repetitions like heathens do.
Catholics pray with beads and use vain repetitions.
The Bible says vain repetitions, not all repetitive prayer. We say the Our Father, all Christians do. Its vain if its believed to "awaken" God to our suffereings, while the Rosary is directly for helping us meditate on the wondrous mysteries of the Lord. You'd be better arguing against meditation than vain repetitions.

Jesus says to pray to His Father in heaven.
Catholics pray to saints.
Prayer as the word was originally used means to request respectfully. So, in the understanding of Catholics, even to ask our fellow believers on Earth for their prayers in times of need would be praying to them.

The Lord God says to not have any graven images.
Catholic churches have the most graven images covering them.
Graven images, means that the images are made to be worshipped. God had no problem with imagery. He had the Ark covered with two Cherubim. The walls of the Holy of Holies were tapestries that had images of angels and animals, as God told them to do so.

The Lord God says to keep the sabbath holy and it is hallowed.
Catholics worship on Sunday, because of Constantine persecuting those who worshiped on sabbath. Essentially sun worship, paganism.
Sunday worship began after 70 AD when all Christians were banned from the synagogues. The Pope at the time of Constantine and the Council of Bishops made it official to worship on the Lord's day, which is Sunday.

The Lord God did not tell us to observe Ishtar (Easter).
Catholics observe Easter.
Easter is an English word. In Europe and most Christian countries its still known as Resurrection Sunday. Only the United States and England call it Easter.

Jesus rebuked Jews for putting the traditions of men over the word of the Lord God.
Catholics make you jump through hoops and study Catholicism before they will allow you to be baptized. This places a sense of foolish pride inside Catholics, who, when they hear criticism of Catholicism, take it as a personal insult because of how much time and energy they put in to their entry in to the church. It blinds them to the issue at hand, and instead I normally see them babble incoherently against protestants as heretics. When Jesus started His ministry, He told the apostles to drop what they were doing and follow him. He didn't make them wait 18 month before baptizing them.
Correct. The length of time it takes to enter the Catholic Church is rather long, but the entire process is to be a time of coming to accept God. I think the amount it takes is too much. By the way, it isn't 18 months, its more like 9.

The Lord God did not tell us to celebrate Christmas (winter solstice, pagan celebrations).
Catholics observe Christmas.
The actual date of Jesus' birth is lost to history and is hotly debated among scholars. However, to celebrate the day that God descended to Earth in the form of a human is correct.

Jesus told us to pray in secret to the Lord God and how the Lord God knows His children.
The current pope told us that it is dangerous to have a relationship with the Lord God, and would have people believe that He is literally too busy to hear prayers.
You're only looking at part of his speech. He said that to rely only on a personal relationship with Jesus without instruction, study, or oversight by an elder or shepherd is dangerous and leads to heresy. (By the way, every denomination and non-denomination teaches this. Even the Bible does, "Lean not to your own understanding.")

Jesus is the living torah, the WORD of God.
Catholics base most of their teaching on the letters of Paul.
Actually, most of Catholic doctrine is based on the whole of Scripture. The Catholic Church may lean Pauline right now, but at times the Church has been more Cephan and Johannine.

In revelation it mentions the wine of the wrath of fornication.
The pope recently allowed Islamic (satanic) prayers in the Vatican (multiculturalism, paganism, Islam, secular humanism). He also said that atheists and other people of other religions go to heaven too.
First, he allowed a Muslim and a Jew to pray to God for peace in the Vatican gardens and not within the sanctuary of St. Peter's or the Sistine Chapel, because that would be offensive to God. Second, he never said they would get to heaven. He said that all have a deposit of good in them, the conscience and Law that God gave all men to be born with. In order to seek heaven, one must first turn and ask what he believes is good, and then to seek truth. Since Jesus is Truth Itself, all who seek truth honestly will come to Christ.

Jesus said that He has the power to forgive sins on earth.
Catholics confess sins to priests.
Jesus gave that power also to His Apostles. The end of John and Matthew 16 specifically say that Jesus gave them the power to forgive or retain sins, to bind and loose. Also, we confess to priests because personal sin harms the entire body and Scripture says that we must confess to one another to heal the harm done to the Body of Christ.

Jesus said call no man father except the Lord God.
Catholics call priests father.
Paul calls himself a "spiritual father", Stephen refers to Abraham as Father Abraham, as did Jesus. We all call our biological and/or adoptive dads father. This was a teaching of hyperbole. For if this teaching is to be taken literally, you cannot call anyone Grandpa, Pa, Dad, Rabbi, Teacher, Professor, Doctor, or even Mister (Mister comes from Master). To do any of those things, based upon your interpretation would be sin.

In revelation it mentions the whore of Babylon being drunk on the blood of saints.
Catholicism reveres saints equal or above Jesus.
We revere saints yes. Never as equal or above Jesus. Only God can be worshipped and adored. None of the saints are, they are revered, but none of them can "grant" miracles, but all saints, whether in Heaven or on Earth may boldly approach the Throne of God on behalf of another.

All have fallen short of the glory of God and have sinned.
Catholics think that Mary did not sin.
Not all Catholics believe Mary was without sin. We believe she was without original sin. Though, I will admit that many of us believe she did live a sinful life. I've never seen any evidence to this, which is why I have yet to take a stand for or against.

notuptome · Sep 1, 2014

IAm3rd said:

What? God has preserved His word not the church of Rome. The apostles preached Jesus from the OT. It's just like Rome to steal the glory from God and take credit for that which they have no right to.

Just like apostolic succession. What a bunch of baloney. Peter was never the chief apostle. James would have been much closer to that position but he never boasted of such authority.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Sep 1, 2014

ThomistColin said:

Pure pontification. A political answer not a scriptural answer

That one takes a real big gulp of the Kool-Aid.

No one is accusing God of having a problem its the tolerance Rome has for the laity falling or kneeling down before these images that is the problem. You can say it is not so but I have witnessed it first hand.

Legalism. Worship on what ever day you wish.

Easter is the commercialized holiday. Resurrection Sunday is the spiritual holiday. Celebrate which ever day your heart dictates.

You do not teach someone to be a Christian. Gods Holy Spirit must convict of sin, judgment, and righteousness before a soul can be drawn to Christ. Salvation is an event not a process. Sanctification is a life long process that starts after salvation. Rome teaches one has their original sin forgive at infant baptism. They are confirmed in the church and given a new name at age 11. This is the time at which they can receive the elements of the communion which is their version of Gods grace.

Celebrate according to the dictates of the heart. Commercial Christmas is tedious even to the most ardent pagan.

Well Rome is the absolute authority on heresy.

We need the whole counsel of God. The part of Rome that relies on tradition is the troubling part of their doctrine.

I suspect that the popes aims are more to empire building than to declaring the gospel of Christ.

This is real dangerous doctrine. It is flatly untrue and a gross perversion of what Christ said and how it must be understood.

They make a mockery of themselves. Desiring to be called father and dressing up like mother. Biblically God does not gift priests to the church. Eph 4:11

There is no evidence that the church in Revelation is Rome. Unless you have inside information and want to confess.

Let me set you straight here. Mary was born like everyone else with a sin nature. Mary was a sinner and needed Jesus as her Savior just like everyone else born into the world. And yes Mary had other children after Jesus.

Until we enter into the dangerous, popes description, covenantal relationship with Jesus where He is Savior and I am sinner needing to be saved we are completely without hope of eternal life. Forgiveness of sin is by grace received through faith and not of works lest any man could boast.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

john17 · Sep 1, 2014

Hi Roger, actually, there are two passages in Scripture which point us to the truth that Mary is conceived without sin (Immaculate Conception). If we look first at Genesis 3:15, in which we see the parallel between Mary and Eve of which the early Church Fathers (earliest account we have is from St. Justin Martyr in AD 155) from already spoke: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The Jews saw this passage as referring to the struggle between Christ and Satan, and so the Church see in "the woman" a prophetic foreshadowing of the Virgin Mary. Hence, if there is to be complete enmity between the woman and the serpent, then she never should have been in any way subject to him even briefly. This implies an Immaculate conception.This concept of Mary, as the second Eve, is not a modern invention, and can be seen in the following writings of early Christians:"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38)" - Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" - Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]."This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one" - Origen, Homily 1 [A.D. 244]"He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption" - Hippolytus, Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" - Ephraim the Syrian, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" - Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]"He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor" - Gregory Nazianzen, Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin" - Augustine, Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns" - Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]"As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain" - Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary" - Jacob of Sarug [ante A.D. 521]"Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified" - Romanos the Melodist, On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]John17

Last · Sep 2, 2014

notuptome said:

James was the leader of the Jerusalem community. Apostolic succession is found at the end of the first chapter of Acts when Matthias replaces Judas.

Last · Sep 2, 2014

Zen said:

The rosary is not to be prayed with vain repetitions.

Catholics pray to God. They also ask saints to pray for them.

A graven image is something that is worshiped. Catholics do not worship religious art.

Christians worshiped on Sundays since the beginning of the Church. Constantine had nothing to do with it. Sunday was picked because that was the day of the resurrection.

Ishtar has nothing to do with Easter.

It's stupid to baptize a person that knows nothing of the faith. You do not have to jump through hoops, you simply need to learn the faith or demonstrate that you know the faith.

The origin of Christmas has nothing to do with any pagan celebrations. It's from the Gospel - the infancy narrative.

The Pope did not say that. You are bearing false witness.

The second part is not true - but I do find it bothersome that you consider the letters of Paul to not be the word of God. What are you, a Gnostic?

Not sure how the first part relates to the second. The Pope did not say who goes to heaven, only that it is possible. If you believe that you simply need to believe in Christ to get to Heaven and that everyone who doesn't goes to hell is profound legalism.

Jesus told us to confess to each other. It is Jesus that forgives Catholics of their sins.

If that was meant to be taken literally then 'father' would lose all meaning.

False. Saints are sinners and they are not divine.

john17 · Sep 2, 2014

(I'm posting again my last post since the formatting were destroyed)

Hi Roger, Actually, there are two passages in Scripture which point us to the truth that Mary is conceived without sin (Immaculate Conception). If we look first at Genesis 3:15, in which we see the parallel between Mary and Eve of which the early Church Fathers (earliest account we have is from St. Justin Martyr in AD 155) from already spoke: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." The Jews saw this passage as referring to the struggle between Christ and Satan, and so the Church see in "the woman" a prophetic foreshadowing of the Virgin Mary.

Hence, if there is to be complete enmity between the woman and the serpent, then she never should have been in any way subject to him even briefly. This implies an Immaculate conception.

This concept of Mary, as the second Eve, is not a modern invention, and can be seen in the following writings of early Christians:

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, "Be it done unto me according to your word" (Luke 1:38)" - Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word." Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" - Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189].

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one" - Origen, Homily 1 [A.D. 244]

"He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption" - Hippolytus, Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" - Ephraim the Syrian, Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" - Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]

"He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor" - Gregory Nazianzen, Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin" - Augustine, Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns" - Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]"As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain" - Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary" - Jacob of Sarug [ante A.D. 521]"Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified" - Romanos the Melodist, On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]

John17

Katy-follower · Sep 2, 2014

john17 said:

Look at that scripture word for word -

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

It's Mary's seed (Jesus), not Mary herself. It's Jesus that bruises the serpent's head, not Mary. Jesus fulfilled the great prophecy and overcame our deceptive enemy. 1 John 3:8: "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil"

Mary was not sinless. JESUS was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was without sin. God did not need a sinless woman to give birth to a sinless Jesus. That would be disregarding the Holy Spirit's involvement and suggesting that she was just like Jesus. God had to pick someone and He chose Mary who was a Godly woman and the right one to raise Jesus as her own.

I urge you to read what the scriptures say and don't read them with your mind locked on defending your religion because you will be defensive and only see what you want to see. Wipe your mind clean of clutter and ignore any outside influences when reading the scriptures.

john17 said:

God had to pick someone. He chose Mary.

Why did God choose Abraham? Because He chose to.

Why did God choose Moses? Why did God choose David? Choosing them did not make them sinless.

The scriptures say that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. If what you believe is true then it would read "...all but Mary" but it doesn't.

john17 · Sep 2, 2014

Hi Katy,

But in the passage "And I will put enmity between you and the woman" how can the woman be in enmity with Satan if at some point in her life, she has sin?

My point in posting the writings of the early Church Fathers is to show that this teaching is not a novel teaching. Also, we can learn a lot on how to read the Bible from their writings since they are more closer to the Apostles (and their disciples) than us.

Also, Martin Luther believes this teaching when he wrote the following (after his broke up from Rome):

"It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" - Martin Luther's Sermon "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527.

"She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. - Martin Luther's Little Prayer Book, 1522.

notuptome · Sep 2, 2014

Last said:

Wow!! Here we see the root of the heresy. Man imposing himself into Gods authority. God never appointed Mattias as an apostle he was appointed by the counsel of men. Well meaning men with good intentions but God never told them to do so. God appointed Paul by divine intervention to replace Judas. Paul was a gift to the Gentile church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ThomistColin · Sep 2, 2014

notuptome said:

That's not Scripture Roger. That's a tradition. And a heretical one at that. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Mattias was one of the 12. Paul was not.

notuptome · Sep 2, 2014

ThomistColin said:

Whom did God bless and use to write a big part of the NT? You are arguing against the historical evidence. You view everything through Rome colored glasses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

ThomistColin · Sep 2, 2014

notuptome said:

You are using historical evidence? I thought it was Sola Scriptura. I'll report you to your Protestant authorities for daring to quote something from outside of the Bible.

Obviously I'm kidding. However, your claim is neither Biblical nor Historical. No one denied Matthias was an Apostle. None of the Apostles did. God didn't. And Christian's didn't. Your theory is a rather new one, like many other interpretations since the 1500s.

notuptome · Sep 2, 2014

ThomistColin said:

Oh come on now. Matthias did what as an apostle? Paul did what as an apostle? Where did God instruct the eleven to choose a replacement for Judas?

The bible is the most reliable source of church history.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kennethcadwell · Sep 2, 2014

notuptome said:

The Apostle Peter referred back to Psalm 20, and in that Psalm he showed how when one has departed another is to take his place, which is why they cast lots to vote in Matthias.

Apostle Paul was chosen by our Lord as the main apostle to bring the word to the gentile nations.

Next we must remember there was the main original 12, but our Lord Jesus also appointed a lot more than that.

Luke 10:1
After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

ThomistColin · Sep 2, 2014

notuptome said:

Its right there in the Chapter. Peter quotes the OT. So you are denying your own Scripture.

tooldtocare · Sep 2, 2014

RoboOp said:

For the record there are folks who do not like Christians either. Are you a member of this group too?

god doesn't exist.
the christians hate the jews because their religion teaches them they killed jesus. also, the jews stubbornly reject jesus as messiah. antisemitism comes from christianity, nowhere else. the bible is a myth which tries to explain why the jews aren't rulers of the world, even though their god created everything. you can't see any of this because you have an agenda. hitler picked up antisemitism from christianity, as did the muslims. in the muslims' case, it was exacerbated by the creation of Israel

NOTtheTalk - Anti-Semitism where did it come from? (International)

Just asking

-

notuptome · Sep 3, 2014

ThomistColin said:

There is nothing in the scripture that says God told the apostles to act when they did. They acted in the power of the flesh. They if you will jumped the gun. They ran ahead of God. Men by nature want to help God by doing what they think is right. They cast the lot and it fell on Matthias and of course God is in the lot but God did not say to them to do it. God had already chosen Saul who would become Paul.

There are men in pulpits all over the world who say they are called of God to preach. The results of their efforts would speak otherwise. Noble intentions but not at Gods leading.

I know you must defend your interpretation in this fashion because much of Rome's traditions depend upon it but it is a faulty foundation. God selects apostles not men.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Sep 3, 2014

tooldtocare said:

I disagree that Christians hate Jews. I believe that the Lord Jesus hated religion but loves Israel and Jesus loves the Gentiles which the Jews have a hatred toward.

Why do you hate Jehovah God?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

kennethcadwell · Sep 3, 2014

notuptome said:

Luke 6:13

And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;

Matthew 28:16-20[h=3]The Great Commission[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Right here in the great commission our Lord Jesus gave them the right to appoint others.
Disciple means follower of Jesus, apostle is a disciple who holds a leadership role in the church. In Psalms that Peter refers back to it shows that when one has fallen they are to act and appoint another to fill that spot.
You said God already chose Saul, this is incorrect for Saul ( Paul ) was not chosen tell later.

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